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No, it's more like accepting that you're falling and there's no way around it, and stopping all the silly arm-flapping; you can't fly. We look ridiculous and it only stresses us out.
... and its the flapping that makes us feel like we are falling in the first place. When our minds are at peace we are naturally buoyant... at equilibrium.
"When Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara was practicing the profound Prajna Paramita, he illuminated the Five Skandhas and saw that they are all empty, and he crossed beyond all suffering and difficulty."
The first time I heard this,I bawled my eyeballs out even though I am more of a Theravadan.
So who's directing the show? Who are we? Who am I?
OK. No problem. Relax. Are you ready Buddy?
In a few sentences. AFAIK. A speck of Infinite Mind jumped into the fertilized egg and stays there for about 80 years. IM takes biological form, in a human body with sense organs and a brain (which is just an organ too). IM is detached from "IT" which is HUUUGE and, because it's detached, is a mere teeny tiny speck and occupies a biological form "IT" (IM's "origin") is totally imponderable now; it's forgotten.
All that's left for 80 years is this: We know suffering and hardship is "wrong;" the world of "survival of the fittest" is just a nasty thing. Why is it this way? Who the frick knows!? All we know is we have been plunged into it. What do we do? We try to eliminate suffering and achieve happiness for ourselves and others (BTW, the difference between selves and others is zero). That's all there is to it. BTW, THAT'S a pretty big job we have!
That's as simple AND as profound as anything we can know for sure. Apparently that's what countless person-hours of meditation have come up with after comparing notes. Works for me. IM_H_O? Every other explanation is either wrong or too complicated and embellished.
However, our consciousness is capable of producing much more.
What our mind (rather than "consciousness") can produce does not change the fact that both mind & consciousness are merely natural elements.
For example, a tree can produce fruit. We still regard the tree as mere natural elements.
Homeostatic systems control & balance the climatic conditions of the earth. We still regard these natural forces as mere natural elements.
Just because the human mind can produce all kinds of thoughts & creations and even gain full enlightenment, this does not infer it is different than the tree.
so no one really knows? lol just have to deal with what we're presented with i suppose. no definite answers to this question, probably why it's a koan
but i suppose we do always cling to an idea of who we are, which leads to suffering. so it's time that we stop clinging, cause we're essentially clueless.. lol at least i am..
all i can work with is this intelligence that seems to be here and ordered regularities we call laws of nature..
However, our consciousness is capable of producing much more.
What our mind (rather than "consciousness") can produce does not change the fact that both mind & consciousness are merely natural elements.
For example, a tree can produce fruit. We still regard the tree as mere natural elements.
Homeostatic systems control & balance the climatic conditions of the earth. We still regard these natural forces as mere natural elements.
Just because the human mind can produce all kinds of thoughts & creations and even gain full enlightenment, this does not infer it is different than the tree.
Will or free will is also mere natural elements.
I agree that mind and consciousness are just manifestation of ‘’natural elements’’ i.e. brain. The Buddhism and other religions believe that ‘’soul’’ is different from molecules tuned together.
I have no doubt that ‘’human mind can produce all kinds of thoughts & creations’’ but how can it get enlightenment?
You said:
''Will or free will is also mere natural elements''
If so, there is not such thing as free will. Everything was determined by our DNA and our previous experiences. /of which we have only small control/
The show is being directed by the sum of the parts, interacting together. There's no one controller. Even the brain, scientifically speaking, isn't the determining factor; it's the information, the sense data, the memories, the perceptions and thoughts. Everything taken together forms an evaluation and then action is carried out through the proper sequence. If anything the mind is the coming-together point of all the constituent members that have a say, and none of them are "you".
If so, there is not such thing as free will. Everything was determined by our DNA and our previous experiences. /of which we have only small control/
If the mind is fully enlightened, it has "full control" over its actions, words and thoughts and full control over its capacity to suffer (which is nil).
This is what i mean by "free will".
It is certainly not determined by DNA. It is determined by dhamma practise.
As for stopping aging, sickness & death, there is no free will here but this is irrelevent. In Buddhism, all that is relevent is freedom from suffering.
Its funny, I'm not particularly superstitious but the topic of free will versus causality seems to be popping up in many strange places at the moment, not just here. I've been mulling it over lately and have formed a probably incorrect idea on this, nevertheless it may be worth sharing. The way I see it is that causality is nihilism. Free will is eternalism. Of course that is only valid if these terms are absolutely defined in opposition to each other. If you were then to say that free will exists contingent to causal factors then you are allowing for both causality and free will, and you are saying that they exist in dependence of each other, or rather co-dependence or inter-dependence. To me this appears more of a middle road between the two extremes.
BTW: Causality cannot lead to total (causal) determinism. Determinism implies a fixed future based on known initial conditions, as there are an infinite number of initial conditions it is impossible to assemble all of the initial conditions to "determine" what the future holds. Even if this were possible (or the number of conditions were finite and manageable), to be able to assemble the initial conditions you need these conditions at a given point in time because they keep changing, essentially you need time to stand still while you (who are fortunately outside of time) assemble the infinite initial conditions to "determine" what the future holds at your predict moment in the future. Then you need a cognitive capability to compute, from these infinite initial conditions, what the future outcome is. When you look at determinism rationally it really badly falls to pieces. If you say that determinism occurs independent of any empirical observation then on what grounds can you say it exists? When a future event occurs, unless it has been predicted by determinism, how can you say that it was predestined to occur?
you got it. there is only ignorance of potential and awareness of potential. both can exist.
when we are unconscious our karma drives us. when we are more aware we have free will.
but even with free will. the choices made have certain outcomes.
enlightenment equates to not caring about outcomes. if one does not care for outcomes karma is abolished and so is free will. but if one does actions based on the action themselves. say to be joyful for the sake of joyfulness.
then freewill and karma can exist together. but again the choice is yours.
Comments
The first time I heard this,I bawled my eyeballs out even though I am more of a Theravadan.
This 10% of control must be down to it.
Don’t take me wrong I don’t believe in a free will. However, our consciousness is capable of producing much more.
For example, a tree can produce fruit. We still regard the tree as mere natural elements.
Homeostatic systems control & balance the climatic conditions of the earth. We still regard these natural forces as mere natural elements.
Just because the human mind can produce all kinds of thoughts & creations and even gain full enlightenment, this does not infer it is different than the tree.
Will or free will is also mere natural elements.
just have to deal with what we're presented with i suppose.
no definite answers to this question, probably why it's a koan
but i suppose we do always cling to an idea of who we are, which leads to suffering. so it's time that we stop clinging, cause we're essentially clueless.. lol at least i am..
all i can work with is this intelligence that seems to be here and ordered regularities we call laws of nature..
:rockon: :clap:
I agree that mind and consciousness are just manifestation of ‘’natural elements’’ i.e. brain.
The Buddhism and other religions believe that ‘’soul’’ is different from molecules tuned together.
I have no doubt that ‘’human mind can produce all kinds of thoughts & creations’’ but how can it get enlightenment?
You said:
''Will or free will is also mere natural elements''
If so, there is not such thing as free will. Everything was determined by our DNA and our previous experiences. /of which we have only small control/
Sorry, just quessing... can't help you.
This is what i mean by "free will".
It is certainly not determined by DNA. It is determined by dhamma practise.
As for stopping aging, sickness & death, there is no free will here but this is irrelevent. In Buddhism, all that is relevent is freedom from suffering.
Kind regards
BTW: Causality cannot lead to total (causal) determinism. Determinism implies a fixed future based on known initial conditions, as there are an infinite number of initial conditions it is impossible to assemble all of the initial conditions to "determine" what the future holds. Even if this were possible (or the number of conditions were finite and manageable), to be able to assemble the initial conditions you need these conditions at a given point in time because they keep changing, essentially you need time to stand still while you (who are fortunately outside of time) assemble the infinite initial conditions to "determine" what the future holds at your predict moment in the future. Then you need a cognitive capability to compute, from these infinite initial conditions, what the future outcome is. When you look at determinism rationally it really badly falls to pieces. If you say that determinism occurs independent of any empirical observation then on what grounds can you say it exists? When a future event occurs, unless it has been predicted by determinism, how can you say that it was predestined to occur?
when we are unconscious our karma drives us. when we are more aware we have free will.
but even with free will. the choices made have certain outcomes.
enlightenment equates to not caring about outcomes. if one does not care for outcomes karma is abolished and so is free will. but if one does actions based on the action themselves. say to be joyful for the sake of joyfulness.
then freewill and karma can exist together. but again the choice is yours.