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Buddhism and free will.

edited March 2011 in Buddhism Basics
Just some vague thoughts that may be complete poop but I'm sharing anyway.

It seems like Buddhism is an exercise in realizing true free will. The catch, however, is that, the more free will a person has, the less they have a need for it. The result? Sitting in a monastery all day doing nothing.

Comments

  • Why do you say that? Free will is about choices. You can choose a lifestyle that is pleasing and satisfactory to you, such as a life of helping others.

    Your statement is just not logical. How can it be so that, "the more free will a person has, the less they have a need for it"?

    You have lots of choices. The point is making the right ones.

    Exercise your free will to go help out in a homeless shelter.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    edited March 2011
    There's no "agent", no "self", no true "I" or controller to have "free will" in Buddhism. The term is really meaningless. We make decisions, we have control, but it's not coming from some independent part of us that's separate from everything else. There's no doer of the deed, so to speak. The more you see conditioned aggregates of mind and form, the less you use terms like "free will".
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    "Complete poop" would be right, it seems.... :)
  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited March 2011
    Sitting in a monastery all day doing nothing.
    you may want to try this "Sitting in a monastery all day doing nothing." thing one day to realize that doing nothing maybe actually really difficult to do.

    Turn out that investigating the very nature of reality happen to require lots of work, it just doesn't look like it.

    I suggest a retreat, to get a taste of it :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited March 2011

    It seems like Buddhism is an exercise in realizing true free will. The catch, however, is that, the more free will a person has, the less they have a need for it. The result? Sitting in a monastery all day doing nothing.
    "It seems Buddhism is an exercise in realising Free Will".... :wtf:

    Where did you come across this conclusion? Or did you come up with this yourself?
    Buddhism is a focus on the origin of suffering and the cessation of suffering.
    This talk of 'realizing true free will' is either new-age claptrap - or you might like to lift the hood and see if you got some wires crossed....


    SERIOUSLY crossed.....

  • I am going to break out my "I" now.
    I am looking at things in my life, in my head, that trouble me or have troubled me.
    I wish to suffer less from them so I will , freely, attempt to give these troubles/thoughts less sway. I will not ignore those things that I must deal with but I will examine , on a case by case basis any thought , troubling or not, for its usefulness. As I watch the thoughts, I encounter those I have rejected (on some level) before and turn from them. It becomes easier with time and there are less internal encounters because I send them on, so to speak. For me it is somewhat mechanical and an act of will.
    The four Noble Truths and the Eight whatchamacallits help avoid the "New Age" label; see to them.
    I am told that eventually a reflective mind can empty. Not mine though: it is very full.

    I am not a Buddhist, but I play one on TV.
    ;)
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    There's no "agent", no "self", no true "I" or controller to have "free will" in Buddhism. The term is really meaningless. We make decisions, we have control, but it's not coming from some independent part of us that's separate from everything else. There's no doer of the deed, so to speak. The more you see conditioned aggregates of mind and form, the less you use terms like "free will".
    Hi Cloud,

    Wait a minute. First you say there's no "agent", "self", or "I". But then you start talking about "we" having control.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Sitting in a monastery all day doing nothing.
    you may want to try this "Sitting in a monastery all day doing nothing." thing one day to realize that doing nothing maybe actually really difficult to do.

    Turn out that investigating the very nature of reality happen to require lots of work, it just doesn't look like it.

    I suggest a retreat, to get a taste of it :)
    I can only speak about what I've experienced in Thailand, where I've literally visited hundreds, perhaps over a thousand, Buddhist temples. There are any awfully lot of monks sitting around doing nothing. I know the difference between meditating or even just thinking and lazing around.

    I've also seen monks being actively engaged with the lay community, meditating, etc.

  • I was thinking along the lines of attachment. Someone who frees themself from attachment has more freedom but less reason to use it. Less submission to emotional attachment but nothing left to guide emotions towards.
  • It just seems to me that Buddhism deals with free will. Otherwise any concept of following a path is meaningless. "Awakening", to me, sounds like realizing ones own freedom. We've always had free will but without knowledge of said free will you paradoxically lose it.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited March 2011
    Free will.. Philosophers have been arguing about this statement for ages without coming to a conclusion. That's why we meditate, to see reality as it is, not with a thinking mind.

    There is freedom in Buddhism, that's what counts.
  • There's no "agent", no "self", no true "I" or controller to have "free will" in Buddhism. The term is really meaningless. We make decisions, we have control, but it's not coming from some independent part of us that's separate from everything else. There's no doer of the deed, so to speak. The more you see conditioned aggregates of mind and form, the less you use terms like "free will".
    Hi Cloud,

    Wait a minute. First you say there's no "agent", "self", or "I". But then you start talking about "we" having control.

    Don't get caught up in the words. Words cannot adequately express it. There is action, yet there is no "self" doing the action, nor is the action even "yours."

    When there is pain, there is pain. Not my pain. Just pain. When there are thoughts, there are thoughts. Not my thoughts, just thoughts. So on and so forth.
  • If there are objects there must be subjects? If there are no objects what's the point of talking in terms of what IS and what ISN'T?
  • If there are objects there must be subjects? If there are no objects what's the point of talking in terms of what IS and what ISN'T?
    "Subject" and "object" are just different terms attempting to describe the same thing. Subject is object. Object is subject. People don't understand that the wisdom of the heart sutra, "form is emptiness, emptiness is form," can be applied to so much more than form and emptiness. They get caught in the words. People are always getting caught in the words.
  • edited March 2011
    I'm talking about the very definition of BEING as it pertains to the concepts of subject and object. How can something BE something, if it's not an object (something) in the first place?

    I think the very definition of existence ("the fact or state of living or having objective reality ") needs for there to be an object and a subject. So I think the problem is more with the verbs than with the nouns.

    "I" IS. It exists. It exists because it's an object. It exists because it can be perceived as an object. We are not separate, but in order for us to even BE we must be perceived as separate.

    Am I making any sense?


    We only have words to communicate, unfortunately. So words are important. We already know how a bad translation from Pali to English can create a lot of confusion. It's a testament to the power of words in our minds.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    Sitting in a monastery all day doing nothing.
    _______________________________

    ROFLAO!

    Did you ever try to do nothing? Do you know anyone who ever succeeded in doing nothing? How is it possible to do nothing? If it were possible to DO nothing, wouldn't that be doing something? Isn't "doing nothing" more a reflection on the person using the phrase in the first place ... calling into question what "nothing" s/he is referring to?

    Thanks for the laugh.
  • I was thinking along the lines of attachment. Someone who frees themself from attachment has more freedom but less reason to use it. Less submission to emotional attachment but nothing left to guide emotions towards.
    Again, why "less reason to use (freedom from attachment)"? You can choose to do many good things to help make the world a better place, to help people and so forth. IMO, what you are saying is vague to me and a generalization (to me). Can you give us some real-life specifics about this? "I have no reason to____ because I have relative freedom from attachment."

    When in doubt, do a random act of kindness. There's certainly no specific reason to do that, but it could make a world of difference for another person.

    Freedom from attachment frees you to do lots of good things. Why not do those, but just don't be attached to the outcome?

  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    I'm lazy, I'm probably a freeloader, I'm a dreamer and a tragic idealist, as well as a hopeless romantic. it is who I am, I stopped trying to change myself and things got a bit easier.

    When it comes to matters of the heart, never hesitate ;)
  • I'm lazy, I'm probably a freeloader, I'm a dreamer and a tragic idealist, as well as a hopeless romantic. it is who I am, I stopped trying to change myself and things got a bit easier.

    When it comes to matters of the heart, never hesitate ;)
    ???

  • If you're not attached then surely desire, of any kind, falls away. Without attachment we lose motive, surely? Motive to feel a desire or need to have to do anything. If you feel a desire to help people then are you not still attached to suffering? You might help people.. as a buddhist.. but without attachment you have no real direction or reason to do anything in particular.
  • If you're not attached then surely desire, of any kind, falls away. Without attachment we lose motive, surely? Motive to feel a desire or need to have to do anything. If you feel a desire to help people then are you not still attached to suffering? You might help people.. as a buddhist.. but without attachment you have no real direction or reason to do anything in particular.
    This is a subtle issue that is often confusing to beginners. Not all desires fall away. The desire to do good things and help others, especially, does not fall away. In Buddhism, there are desires that are obstructive and desires that are conducive to practice and betterment of our (conventional) selves and others.

    This is where the concept of "skillful means" or "the middle way" comes in. Say for instance you wanted to discover a cure for cancer or become a great brain surgeon. This would be an appropriate desire. Buddhist practice helps us accept the inevitable bumps on the road with equanimity.

    I guess I would say IMO that it's not about removing desire and motivation completely, because then life itself would be completely pointless. I myself have been a nurse for 30 years. Sometimes my patients got well and sometimes they died. Buddhism has helped me deal with that with relative equanimity. We do what we do with good intentions, but we cannot be particularly attached to the outcome either way.

    It's more about moving through life with equanimity rather than just extinguishing desire completely. Otherwise Buddhism would be very nihilistic.

  • ZaylZayl Veteran
    I'm lazy, I'm probably a freeloader, I'm a dreamer and a tragic idealist, as well as a hopeless romantic. it is who I am, I stopped trying to change myself and things got a bit easier.

    When it comes to matters of the heart, never hesitate ;)
    ???

    Like I said I'm an idealist... its a problem I'm working on :D
  • This is a subtle issue that is often confusing to beginners. Not all desires fall away. The desire to do good things and help others, especially, does not fall away. In Buddhism, there are desires that are obstructive and desires that are conducive to practice and betterment of our (conventional) selves and others.

    This is where the concept of "skillful means" or "the middle way" comes in. Say for instance you wanted to discover a cure for cancer or become a great brain surgeon. This would be an appropriate desire. Buddhist practice helps us accept the inevitable bumps on the road with equanimity.

    I guess I would say IMO that it's not about removing desire and motivation completely, because then life itself would be completely pointless. I myself have been a nurse for 30 years. Sometimes my patients got well and sometimes they died. Buddhism has helped me deal with that with relative equanimity. We do what we do with good intentions, but we cannot be particularly attached to the outcome either way.

    It's more about moving through life with equanimity rather than just extinguishing desire completely. Otherwise Buddhism would be very nihilistic.

    I see. Although I have heard that Buddhism, or at least divisions of Buddhism are not far from Nihilism.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Not from any Buddhist you've ever met, you haven't.

    Almost certainly from someone (or a source) that doesn't understand Buddhism, or has come to personal conclusions based on superficial observation.
  • Jeff- look up the concept of Bodhisattva and see how that strikes you.

    Or if you are more interested in Theravada, look up metta.

    The Buddha advised against going to the extreme of nihilism. Buddhism is about living life skillfully. That means different things to different people, but it's definitely not about nihilism.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Don't get caught up in the words. Words cannot adequately express it. There is action, yet there is no "self" doing the action, nor is the action even "yours."
    Funny, because I think there's a tendency for we Buddhists to get caught up in abstractness.
  • CloudCloud Veteran
    I never said that, I think you screwed up your quote. :)
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    You're correct. But my point stands -- sometimes we Buddhists get caught up in abstractness, when some things are just LIFE.
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