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Major Moral Dilemma
I have a beautiful pet snake named Lucifer. He's a great animal to have around, and I love him dearly. As with any animal...he needs to be fed. :-/ This is where it gets tricky. I have to feed him live mice for him to survive. He won't eat anything smaller than a live, adult mouse.
So...on the one hand...I think:. maybe this isn't so much of a problem because that's what the mice are bred for, feeding.
BUT of course, on the other hand...it is killing nonetheless. But it is for the sustenance of my animal, and it's completely natural. I go back and forth.
More recently, I have been blessing the little critters beforehand...giving them good energy and utmost gratitude for their unexpected 'gift.' I spend time with them a bit before i feed them, also.
ANY advice would be helpful! Thank You
*namaste*
So...on the one hand...I think:. maybe this isn't so much of a problem because that's what the mice are bred for, feeding.
BUT of course, on the other hand...it is killing nonetheless. But it is for the sustenance of my animal, and it's completely natural. I go back and forth.
More recently, I have been blessing the little critters beforehand...giving them good energy and utmost gratitude for their unexpected 'gift.' I spend time with them a bit before i feed them, also.
ANY advice would be helpful! Thank You
*namaste*
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Comments
It makes no difference that we choose to breed the mice for that purpose; it just makes us more methodical and foresighted killers. This is practically the same situation as the meat slaughter industry we perpetuate so that we can eat meat.
In my opinion priyajiivana your right when you say that it is perfectly natural and if you keep the snake you have the opportunity to try to ensure that the mice the snake eventually feeds on have a comfortable and well cared for life. I assume you buy these mice from somewhere specifically for feeding? So you have the option of checking that these mice are brought up in a good environment i.e. not some mass mice factory. If you were to give your snake away you would not have any control over how the animals it feeds on are looked after and cared for.
Whichever is the most skillful means to ensure that the snake lives is the best choice we can make; whether to release it in the wild or give it to someone else (depending on many factors including the legality and whether it might pose a threat to people). In this we abstain from the taking of life of either the mice or the snake.
What other people choose to do is their karma, and not subject to our control/oversight. The only other choices are to keep the snake (killing the mice, which is bad karma, merely to sustain our "attachment" to a pet) or to kill it ourselves (which again is our direct taking of life, bad karma).
The option I've given is the one of "least possible evil" on our part, at least from the Buddhist perspective. If it is possible to release the snake safely into the wild, that would be more natural and free us from any kind of worry about mice being bred for the purpose of feeding our pets (which is simply wrong; it doesn't matter how they're cared for).
Ultimately it's up the the OP, and not everyone could just give up a pet regardless of whether they think it's right or not. Our attachments can run very deeply. That's about all I've got to say. Good luck, priya.
If you give the snake away is there not a high chance that those mice will not be given the great respect that priyajiivana gives them in there last minutes? how many people really would care about a mouse there going to feed to a snake? And in knowing this is that not worse?
In life we kill to eat, be in animals or plant life, we kill, that is how we live. But in knowing this we have an opportunity to at least treat life with respect especially if you are ending that life to continue your own.
On the one hand it is unfortunate for the snake. I am not really sure about snakes but if it is the case that it can not be released into the wild then the snake cant fend for its self, someone has to be responsible for it and its life.
I suppose my point is, you can ignore the problem and send it else where, the snake and mice may or may not be given the respect and care they deserve, or you can look after it yourself, that way you can ensure that both the snake and the lives of the mice are treated well. Isnt there good in that?
And shouldn't we care about other peoples karma?
Just noticed you added to your post. I do see your point of finding the "least possible evil" path to a solution and in many cases I would agree. I guess we just differ in our opinion. I do not see the difference in direct or indirect killing of life especially when it comes to food. However I belive the more direct it is if you are killing for food the better because it allows you to ensure that the food you are eating (or giving to a snake) was cared for, treated well, and when its life ended that it was treated with respect and was not killed in vain.
priyajiivana I would say if you can find the snake a good home and you know it will be treated will as well as its food
*namaste*
Blessing the mice seems like a very kind and loving thing to do! What a heart you have!
With warmth,
Matt
I wouldn't have thought there's a lot of point in being blessed if you're going to get eaten afterwards! Sounds like getting blessings from a Christian priest before public executions in times gone by in European history.
I knew some people who had a healthy snake which lived for years on thawed hen chicks which they bought frozen from a pet shop to avoid having to feed it live food.
.
I have had several snakes all in all, and they all thrived on thawed frozen food.
It's likely to be considerably cheaper, as well as less distressing.
In this case I don't think its about the mice. The mouse doesn't know english, no matter its fate. The intention seems like it would come from a loving heart, which is where I focused
I admit, thawed food sounds less scary... but I can't remember being a snake or a mouse, so who knows.
The poor fellow needs to eat obviously, and he can't exactly help that he has evolved into a snake that requires meat to stay alive. He's not a human with a much wider choice of food.
Sometimes, it fights back.....
Sometimes it doesn't......
OK, I'd really reccomend to do this IF you can
1. Buy some mice.
2. Breed them yourself so you know they've had a good life.
3. Kill them with out them knowing.
4. Feed to the snake.
If he won't eat dead food do step 1. & 2. and then just give them to the snake, it would be scary but natural.
If you can't breed your own mice try to make sure they had a good life.
I hope I covered everything...
Don't feel bad, I feed my fish fish food which contains fish, and frozen brineshrimp, and my dog gets fed meat, and my budgie eats cuttlefish bone. Eating living things is just a part of life, and some animals wouldn't be as healthy without the correct food. Aparently pescetarians live longer than vegetarians who live longer than vegans. I'll read up on it properly though... I don't know which human diet is healthiest.
Love & Peace
However, it is also illegal in the UK to keep snakes if they have not been captive-bred.
Snakes taken from the wild have to be either imported, or smuggled in. The former is covered by stringent legislation. The latter is covered by Customs....
The majority of reptiles in the UK, that are kept as pets, don't know what the wild, looks like.
Please don't tgake this as a personal criticism, dear sister Fede: you know the deep respect and affection in which I hold you.
What you say is precisely what the advocates of chattel slavery said about locally-bred human slaves after the ending of the trade and before the final abolition. It cannot be any excuse that, for human pleasure, we breed and cage animals so far outwith their natural environment. Think again of the children and grandchildren of imported slaves.
I appreciate the exercise in compassion you offer in these words, and your stance appears clear through your passion. Its difficult to know if the snake suffers in the cage, you'd have to really look at how its snake-ness is impacted, and how its perceptions would be changed.
I certainly think the comparison to chattel slavery is perhaps overly dramatic?
You are probably right, Matt. I do feel strongly about the cavalier way in which humans consider that they are "owners" of other life. It does us no good and its effects on eco-diversity is catastrophic.
I came to serious practice of Buddhism through the Deep Ecology movement (Joanna Macy et al.) and, as a child of the Shoah, I know myself to be hypersensitive in some areas (my wives have called it "paranoid" LOL)
Love & Peace
Jellybean
This comes through very clearly in your words, and I think the respect you have for nature is awesome! The way we assume ourselves as the alpha species disturbs me too, but I can also see how compassionate trends in many minds (like yours) is helping move us into a more balanced way of life. Hopefully we'll figure out this whole human/nature (in all senses
Thank you for your kind words, Matt. Although I was a Londoner, somehow I acquired, very early, a sense that the line between us humans and the rest of living beings was, somehow, there for our benefit and not a reality.
My old anam cara was very fond of Ramana Maharshi and would reflect on the question: "Who am I?" When we wandered together through our hills here, I would ask "What makes a human? Is there a line that can be drawn?" And, as he helped me to dissipate my anger at the Catholic Church (that I had adopted and then rejected) and at the secret of my Jewishness, I came to realise that there is no line. In the Final Solution, some people were deemed non-human and therefore OK to torture and kill. And I realised that we appeared to use, abuse, domesticate (i.e. tamed to our own use), hunt, and generally feel it OK to be horrid to anything we judged "non-human".
Then I came across Joanna Macy and re-read the Buddhist writings that I had read so many years before. The crucial moment was when I almost danced home, clutching my chest with angina and laughing all the way home because for the first time I really heard my teacher say: "Life can be unsatisfactory." The rest followed, as the dawn comes after a long night.
Although this is off-topic, I would add that from that point on, I rediscovered my love for Christian writings like St John's Gospel and Dame Julian of Norwich. But that's another story.
This does not mean that I close my eyes to or ignore the bloody side of life feeding on other life. On the contrary, I am so aware of it that I often turn back to the Old Testament, Is. 65:25 as a light of hope ("The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.")
In response to the O.P., I would say: feed your snake the live mice and let yourself feel the pain (Noble Truth #1). Then, know that you chose this pain by owning the snake (Noble Truth #2). All the while, be aware that there is a way out and that you and the snake are bound together on the road. Keep hope and work/walk towards it. (Noble Truth #3)
Alternatively, kill the snake (one life) thus saving who knows how many mice. Good idea? Not in my world but I know some who would argue it.
It sounds like an interesting one. I can understand moving away from a point of rejection to a point of acceptance, if that's what is was. For me, it is based on an empathic resonance I can feel with the heart strings of the writers, rather than the specific truths they serve to illumine with their words.
You say it better than I have, Matt. It is the poetry and the stories that open my eyes, my ears, my heart to l'amor che move il sole e l'altre stelle (Dante)
Palzang
Love & Peace
Jellybean
Palzang
This sounds awfully pessimistic. I agree that there have been some issues, but as a species human-kind is still in its childhood... give it time before suggesting xenocide! The earth evolved millions of species over its billion year journey, so what if one of its species killed off a few thousand of those while it was learning how to deal with its frontal cortex. We're still pretty remarkable despite lacking some maturity
With warmth,
Matt
Just remember what the Martians did to Mars...
Palzang
Built an Illudium Q-36 explosive space modulator?
fredrica:. No, my snake absolutely prefers live critters to frozen or thawed. he simply won't eat them..hence my dilemma.
TheFound:.haha! clever solution. i'd have to beef the mice up pretty heavy.
Palzang:. Snakes were meant to eat meat. this cannot be negative karma accumulating if it's purely natural.. what are his other options???
Love'N'Peace:. I think this is a PRIME example of the middle way in action. I admire this balanced solution. I truly believe that it's such a profound dilemma, simply a crushing tie between what the animal can reasonably TAKE (he MUST eat live mice) and both his AND my karmic reacions.
THANK YOU ALL! keep up the debate!
*namaste*
EDIT - to explain my question better.... Did you acquire the snake BEFORE following Buddhism? If so I totally understand your predicament. If however, you were already following Buddhism when you acquired the snake, then I'm confused as to why.
I have one of those in the back of my kitchen cupboard.... I've been using it as a plate-rack......
I think we need to also look at intention.
There are many, many animals which have either been exposed to prolonged Human contact and would never make it in the wild now, if they were re-introduced to it. Furthermore, their environment, habitat and surroundings might not be conducive to their well-being or long survival.
So while I completely accept Palzang's point that we as human beings have verily cocked it up, there are many, many good-hearted people on the planet doing their best, in their own small way, to put that right, redress the balance, or at least pick up the pieces....As he points out, Zoos have moved on from being pure places of exhibit, and are globally concerned with survival of species, and run international breeding programmes to maintain a reasonable number of animals, so that children will not have to ask "What's a Lion?"
There are many animals which for hundreds of varied reasons, were bred for domestication, ranging from horses, cattle, sheep, chickens, ducks, geese.... and of course, the ever-popular Felix and Fido.
None of these animals are as they were originally. We have changed them to suit our needs, and modified their physique, size, form, strength, abilities and temperaments.
we can't undo what we have done. To quote one (in)famous scientist,
(Oppenheimer), (Yes, I know. I bet you were all thinking of that 'other' quotation....)
So, what to do with the mess we've made?
The answer is, "the best of it we can".
Simon is very vociferous against the keeping of such pets, and likens it to the cruelty of human exploitation that is slavery.
Simon has cats.
Simon keeps cats, and is joyful of the pleasure and comfort they provide.
Simon has posted photographs of him surrounded by cats, and I think it might even be fair to look upon it as the cats having Simon, and owning him.
but I'm not going to condemn him or label him a hypocrite.
Au contraire.
I think the mutual benefits are many and manifest.
we have bred domestic animals to provide us with companionship, comfort and enjoyment.
Dogs are the same.
as a near-qualified Canine Psychologist, I can safely say that every client who comes my way does so through compassion and love of their pet. There's something wrong, and they will do anything to put that right, even going to the lengths of hiring a diminutive, Italian, manic, enthusiastic and voluble Dog-Quack.
And bear in mind what a great service and partnership many have with 'working' dogs, such as guide dogs for the blind, hearing dogs and now, even dogs who belong to those who suffer from severe epileptic fits. Did you know, for example, that such dogs can instinctively detect and predict an epileptic fit, from minutes to hours before it occurs?
The link also shows the myriad ways in which dogs have become useful and indispensable co-workers....
so, back to Intention.
If you intend to give an animal a good, happy, protected and 'privileged' life, then I think the benefit works both ways.
If you abuse an animal and treat it badly, something else in addition to Kamma may eventually bite you on the ass.....
The benefits of my owning snakes, was that I gleaned a great deal of knowledge about these fascinating creatures, and actually became a "second Opinion" for my local vet to call on, if ever he needed added input regarding a pet somebody had brought him.
For example, I suggested the possibility of impacted eggs for one snake, the condition of which had left him hitherto baffled. Turned out I was right.
Another snake would not feed on the food his owner had considerately obtained for it. I suggested simply changing the diet. Some snakes have an aversion to the smell of mice, and this was the case. The moment an alternative was presented, the snake devoured with relish. (No, I don't mean ketchup.....)
In answer to dhammachick's question, I wasn't Buddhist when I began to take an interest in herpetology. And I gave up owning snakes when I did.
But I love dogs, and intend one day, to have more than one.
Does that make me an unskillful Buddhist?
No, I don't believe so.
As you have called me out in a very Ciceronian way, it certainly behoves me to reply:
As you say that this is not an accusation of hypocrisy, I'm not sure what it is - perhaps you'll tell us.
In you very first words, you give the answer: "Simon is very vociferous against the keeping of such pets" (my emphasis). As our brother Palzang has pointed out, there is a real difference between cats, dogs, horses and other local, native, domesticated animals and those 'exotics' kept in cages or other containers entirely for our own satisfaction.
I make no secret that I share my home with a couple of cats. Both are re-homed, 'rescue' cats, as have been all the cats and dogs which have lived with me across the years. They are not penned in or confined in any way. If they want to leave, as some have done after living here for some years (e.g. Ginger, who went to live with neighbours after Chris died), they are free to do so. Can we say the same about pet snakes?
Wisdom includes the ability to tell the difference between things that are different.
You may judge me to be a hypocrite or you may wonder why it is OK to suggest that I may be, within the guidelines of discourse here. Before I wrote the comparison that I did, I reflected long and hard. Finally, I thought about Darwin's "Sacred Duty": the abolition of slavery. In support of that, he showed, through his Descent of Man, that all humans, irrespective of race, colour, etc. are kin. Beyond that, he made us realise, in his Origin of Species, that we are kin to all life.
You, my dear Fede, had you lived before Darwin would only have found dog psychology as a trade among huntsmen, training hounds to follow a scent and kill a quarry, or not. Only because we are now aware that our brothers and sisters of the animal kingdom are due appropriate respect is there any room for your vocation other than to turn them into 'good servants'.
On the matter of intention, it is extremely dangerous to maintain that a good intention excuses a bad action, as I am sure you would agree. It is the argument of the abusive parent who says to a child, while wielding a whip, "I'm only doing this for your own good." I cannot believe that this is your position.
I think she pretty much share the same view as you.
She seemed to be defending your point of view.
I think that it's an entirely wonderful thing that you have pets, and that you enjoy their company. I find it commendable, because it has been shown that owning pets is exceptionally good for our personal health.
I agree with what you say Simon.
but seven of my snakes were also rescued. I was actually given three by my vet, two by somebody who was as incapable of looking after them as anyone could be, and two I actually purchased from a Rescue centre in Southall, London.
So I too, am completely with you on the rescue matter.
people have released reptiles and other 'exotic' animals into the wild, (terrapins and parakeets) with disastrous consequences, hence letting them go and returning them to an wild habitat would have been highly irresponsible reckless and senseless.
Look at what is happening in the Florida Everglades, with locals releasing pythons that have grown unmanageable, back into the wild. The climate is more conducive there, but the results have certainly unbalanced things....
Good intention covers us both, and covers both our bad actions, Simon.
look, I'm not here to pick a fight with you. I actually illustrated your owning cats as a positive thing, in your favour.
Whilst you have the opinion you hold, with regard to the slavery argument, you still see the sense in giving rescued animals a better quality of life.
if that is not Good intention, excusing a 'bad action' (which it amply does) I don't know what is.
And just for the record - I also deplore physical punishment. so I do see your point, and then some.
I think the notion of ownership completely dissolves at the level of openness and compassion you folks are/could be looking at. When we build relationships with our pets, our companions, our homes or even our food... its best to simply view it as a moment of connection and mutual expression, rather than I blank THIS...
I feel the issue of morality kind of fades away at this point.
Love & Peace
Jellybean
It should also be easily done without much risk of developing unskillful habits or unskillful acts if one practice Buddhism...
Control can be seen as a bad action...
There seem to be a consensus here about "believing to know what is best for someone else, and imposing your will" is always bad, but it is not always.
Sometimes, some control must be applied.
Some people say that kids should be only directed gently with kind words. Sometimes it is not enough.
Sometimes an arm MUST be squeezed.
Sometimes confinement is appropriate to.
It is the responsibility of the parent/owner to exercise judgment as to what action is necessary.
And one should make sure to develop such wisdom in order to be capable of using proper judgment.
Always of course the intention must be good, one need to be careful not to get mindless and blindly react with anger or other unskillful actions...
Love & Peace
Jellybean
Which is less evil;
A) release a snake at risk of its dieing from prior captivity
Overall....:...I don't think there is much i can do. i love blessing the mice that are food to my pet, and i feel it's all i can really do. He is in a MUCH more stable, healthy environment here, and I feel that my good intentions are being followed through.
There is nothing I can do about releasing the snake. he would be completely incapable of maintaining a decent welfare out in the wilderness anymore. It's no longer an option.
Thank you, Love'N'Peace...
Perhaps you can further enlighten me. How can the killing of so many for sake of the one, especially in such a terrorizing way, be "kinder"?
Is the kindness to Lucifer more valued than the kindness to a mouse, a 100 mice?
"For sake of my 'self', I sacrifice 100 simplicities."
"For sake of my religion, I kill 100 infidels."
"For sake of my government, I kill 100 of its declared enemy."
"For sake of the chosen, I kill 100 unchosen."
"For sake of my pet, I kill 100 non-pets."
"For sake of what I want, I destroy 100 of what others want."
When would the fear, misery, destruction, and death ever end?
A good start would be people not wielding drama in an attempt to persuade.
Anyway, I am rambling, the thing is that man domesticated animals to fill a need and so animals such as dogs, cats, chickens, goats, sheep, horses etc. are in a slightly different category to parrots, lizards and stick insects. I know that I don't shut in my chickens or cat (apart from at night for safety) and they don't wander too far away, they are far more likely to come into the house to find me than run away. The animals are part of the family unit, they work for the good of the household and get paid in food, comfort and kindness. I'm not convinced that this is a worse life than being eaten by a fox in the wild but I will rejoice when there are no more battery hens to be rescued.
Drop, you're over exaggerating. You have an animal for company and you repay it with food, water, warmth, comfort and love. That animal eats mice, a perfectly NATURAL thing that is part of the VITAL LIFE CYCLE. Putting that animal in a strange country is CRUEL and UNATURAL. Think about it, what you're suggesting is horrid to the poor snake. It like someone putting you in greenland, alone, for eating vegetables.
Love & Peace
Jellybean