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If rebirth deniers or those indifferent to it, will only continue to argue, no matter whether rhetorical carrots or sticks or both carrots & sticks are offered; then I move on.
What about karma & vipaka (effects of karma)? Does that take place in only one lifetime? If yes, why the differences among sentient beings.
Nature, elements, genetics, nurture, etc.
Monks, it is by way of elements that beings come together & unite. Those of inferior disposition come together & unite with those of inferior disposition; those of good disposition come together with those of good disposition. In the past they did so, in the future they will do so and in the present they do so.
Just as excrement comes together & unites with excrement, urine with urine, spittle with spittle, pus with pus and blood with blood come together, so too monks, it is by way of elements that beings come together & unite.
If no, then how do we know our actions will not hurt instead of helping?
If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and happiness, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'
But why did he turn his concentrated vision to that subject? Perhaps it had something to do with trying to confirm or deny an intellectual component that seem to be needed in his thinking.
From MN 19:
The word 'lives' does not appear in the Pali. The translation is inaccurate.
The Pali word is nivāsa [fr. nivasati] stopping, dwelling, resting-- place, abode; living, sheltering
At Savatthi. "Monks, any priests or contemplatives who recollect their manifold past dwellings all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or one among them.
Which five?
When recollecting, 'I was one with such a form in the past,' one is recollecting just form.
Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a feeling in the past,' one is recollecting just feeling.
Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a perception in the past,' one is recollecting just perception.
Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such mental fabrications in the past,' one is recollecting just mental fabrications.
Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a consciousness in the past,' one is recollecting just consciousness.
"Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'
"Any feeling whatsoever...
"Any perception whatsoever...
"Any fabrications whatsoever...
"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'
"This, monks, is called a disciple of the noble ones who tears down and does not build up; who abandons and does not cling; who discards and does not pull in; who scatters and does not pile up.
His mind not only purified itself of the arising of self-view in the present but also saw all of the self-view in the past as being merely void and the product of ignorance.
In short, all of the mind's past conditioning unwound.
Not just the end of self-view in the present but the purifying of the grasping in the memory bank.
All 'self' ended, that is, from the past, in the present & in the future.
"When a disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be, it is not possible that he would run after the past, thinking, 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past?' or that he would run after the future, thinking, 'Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' or that he would be inwardly perplexed about the immediate present, thinking, 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' Such a thing is not possible. Why is that? Because the disciple of the noble ones has seen well with right discernment this dependent co-arising & these dependently co-arisen phenomena as they have come to be."
"Well then — knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents [asava]?
There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication.
Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication?
To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication [of 'self'] is born of that.
And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents.
For those who deny, ignore or find rebirth & karma irrelevant, I would suggest any of the Abrahamic religions. They have a fine ethical practice and a one-lifetime view.
The Dharma without karma & rebirth is like a zombie - with neither brain nor heart.
:eek:
"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously born beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the other after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit & results in acquisitions.
"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
Āsava [fr. ā + sru</B>, would corresp. to a Sk. *āsrava</B>, cp. Sk. āsrāva. The BSk. āśrava is a (wrong) sankritisation of the Pāli āsava, cp. Divy 391 & kṣīnāśrava] that which flows (out or on to) outflow & influx. 1. spirit, the intoxicating extract or flows (out or on to) outflow & influx. 1. spirit, the intoxicating extract or secretion of a tree or flower, O. C. in Vin <SMALLCAPS>iv.</SMALLCAPS>110 (four kinds); B. on D <SMALLCAPS>iii.</SMALLCAPS>182 (five kinds) DhsA 48; KhA 26; J <SMALLCAPS>iv.</SMALLCAPS>222; <SMALLCAPS>vi.</SMALLCAPS>9. -- 2. discharge from a sore, A <SMALLCAPS>i.</SMALLCAPS>124, 127 = Pug 30. -- 3. in psychology, t.t. for certain specified ideas which intoxicate the mind (bemuddle it, befoozle it, so that it cannot rise to higher things).
Because the life of the Dharma is dependent origination, of which karma & rebirth are part.
The words karma & rebirth do not appear in dependent origination.
It follows they are not a part.
In brief, the Buddha said:
Whoever sees dependent co-arising sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees dependent co-arising." And these things — the five aggregates subject to clinging— are dependently co-arisen. Any desire, embracing, grasping & holding-on to these five aggregates subject to clinging is the origination of stress. Any subduing of desire & passion, any abandoning of desire & passion for these five aggregates subject to clinging is the cessation of stress.'
In the standard list (there are other versions) #2 is samskara, which is karmic formations & #11 jati or birth.
And what are fabrications [fabricators]? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications.
Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications [fabricator].
“Bhikkhus, knowing and seeing in this way, would you speak thus: ‘The Teacher is respected by us. We speak as we do out of respect for the Teacher'?”
“No, venerable sir.”
“Knowing and seeing in this way, would you speak thus: ‘The Recluse says this, and we speak thus at the bidding of the Recluse'?”
“No, venerable sir.”
“Good, bhikkhus. So you have been guided by me with this Dhamma, which is visible here and now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, onward leading, to be experienced by the wise for themselves.
For it was with reference to this that it has been said: ‘Bhikkhus, this Dhamma is visible here and now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, onward leading, to be experienced by the wise for themselves.
For those who deny, ignore or find rebirth & karma irrelevant, I would suggest any of the Abrahamic religions. They have a fine ethical practice and a one-lifetime view.
The Dharma without karma & rebirth is like a zombie - with neither brain nor heart.
Some words about karma and rebirth from Ajahn Sumedho, abbot of a Theravada Thai Forest tradition monastery :
" So is kamma something you have to believe in to be a Buddhist? I've heard Buddhists say that to be a Buddhist you have to believe in the law of kamma and rebirth. But I've never felt that was ever an expectation. The thing that attracted me to Buddhism was that you didn't have to believe in anything. You didn't need to take positions. But these are terms that are used. So what is kamma now, rebirth now? Always bringing your attention to the here and now rather than deciding whether you believe in the concepts or not. The concepts are just conditions, words. "
Ven. Susima heard that "A large number of monks, it seems, have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world."'" Then Ven. Susima went to those monks and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to them, "Is it true, as they say, that you have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world"'?"
"Yes, friend."
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you recollect your manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand births, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here'?"
"No, friend."
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you see — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and do you discern how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world'?"
"No, friend."
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"
"No, friend."
"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"
"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."
"Thus, Susima, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'
"Any feeling whatsoever...
"Any perception whatsoever...
"Any fabrications whatsoever...
"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'
"the teaching of rebirth makes sense in relation to ethics. For early Buddhism, the conception of rebirth is an essential plank of its ethical theory, providing an incentive for avoiding evil and doing good. In this context, the doctrine of rebirth is correlated with the principle of kamma, which asserts that all our morally determinate actions, our wholesome and unwholesome deeds, have an inherent power to bring forth fruits that correspond to the moral quality of those deeds. Read together, the twin teachings of rebirth and kamma show that a principle of moral equilibrium obtains between our actions and the felt quality of our lives, such that morally good deeds bring agreeable results, bad deeds disagreeable results."
It also depends on the audience? Teaching rebirth to some might be more skillful, as it helps them move to a place of viewing where the issue dissolves. I know that telling my 8 year old son that right and wrong are social conventions would not help him find his way.
Teaching rebirth to some might be more skillful, as it helps them move to a place of viewing where the issue dissolves.
Teaching rebirth is skillful to establish morality in people. It is not a factor of the rightful path to Nibbana:
"And what is the right view that has effluents [asava], sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the other world. ...
"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
For morality. Not for the cessation of suffering. For Nibbana, I wouldn't even call it relevant let alone important
It is important. To me. You are welcome to dismiss or call it whatever you like.
"By the training in morality, the coarsest forms of the mental defilements, those erupting as unwholesome deeds and words, are checked and kept under control. By the training in concentration the mind is made calm, pure and unified, purged of the currents of distractive thoughts. By the training in wisdom the concentrated beam of attention is focused upon the constituent factors of mind and body to investigate and contemplate their salient characteristics. This wisdom, gradually ripened, climaxes in the understanding that brings complete purification and deliverance of mind."
"The Buddha, did not regard morality merely as a set of rules based on reasoning. He taught that there is a universal law which connects our conduct with our personal destinies. This law is utterly impersonal in its operation."
Teaching rebirth is skillful to establish morality in people. It is not a factor of the rightful path to Nibbana:
If I had an 8 year old I would tell him to be a good man even if there is rebirth or not.
I am not prepared to examine the ripple like qualities of every action, and then decide which are steps resonant or dissonant of the journey into Nibbana. I feel for some it might be very helpful to step first into a space of social morality before they step into a space of resonant morality.
You might find that the answers to some of the eight year old's questions have to be a general dilution of truth, rather than a direct relating of what is important/not important. Skillful relating is more resonant than whacking an unprepared mind with truth that confuses it.
I have seen too often where people assume that those teaching to relate to the path with rebirth do so out of wrong view or ignorance... instead of contemplating the reasoning behind relating the world to their students in that way.
It is important. To me. You are welcome to dismiss or call it whatever you like.
I didn't say morality is not important. However, just as long as someone feels compelled to do meritorious deeds due to rebirth or kamma they are harboring a defilement associated with self identification.
Also from bhikkhu bodhi: "the Buddha himself does not try to found ethics on the ideas of kamma and rebirth, but uses a purely naturalistic type of moral reasoning that does not presuppose personal survival or the working of kamma. The gist of his reasoning is simply that we should not mistreat others — by injuring them, stealing their belongings, exploiting them sexually, or deceiving them — because we ourselves are averse to being treated in such ways."
I'm yet to hear a convincing reason or example as to how believing in rebirth makes a difference in your daily practice.
Furthermore, the example of teachers such as Thich Nhat Hanh leads me to believe that one can actually go a very very long way, perhaps all the way to enlightenment, without it.
Comments
You can find better stuff here.
Bye:wavey:
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Nature is what the Buddha called dhatu (elements).
The Pali word is nivāsa [fr. nivasati] stopping, dwelling, resting-- place, abode; living, sheltering
Each birth is each jati or 'self status'.
His mind not only purified itself of the arising of self-view in the present but also saw all of the self-view in the past as being merely void and the product of ignorance.
In short, all of the mind's past conditioning unwound.
Not just the end of self-view in the present but the purifying of the grasping in the memory bank.
All 'self' ended, that is, from the past, in the present & in the future.
Downfalls of the Bodhisattva vows
:eek:
Asava = defiled outflows; pollution; sewerage.
It follows they are not a part.
In brief, the Buddha said:
Are there rebirth teachings in the Three Cardinal Discourses of the Buddha?
:rolleyesc
However, the Buddha himself encouraged otherwise.
Many thanks for the references, DD.:)
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Some words about karma and rebirth from Ajahn Sumedho, abbot of a Theravada Thai Forest tradition monastery :
" So is kamma something you have to believe in to be a Buddhist? I've heard Buddhists say that to be a Buddhist you have to believe in the law of kamma and rebirth. But I've never felt that was ever an expectation. The thing that attracted me to Buddhism was that you didn't have to believe in anything. You didn't need to take positions. But these are terms that are used. So what is kamma now, rebirth now? Always bringing your attention to the here and now rather than deciding whether you believe in the concepts or not. The concepts are just conditions, words. "
(The Sound of Silence)
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http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.070.than.html
from this teaching -
Why teachings on rebirth and kamma are important
For morality. Not for the cessation of suffering. For Nibbana, I wouldn't even call it relevant let alone important
Teaching rebirth is skillful to establish morality in people. It is not a factor of the rightful path to Nibbana:
If I had an 8 year old I would tell him to be a good man even if there is rebirth or not.
It is important. To me. You are welcome to dismiss or call it whatever you like.
"By the training in morality, the coarsest forms of the mental defilements, those erupting as unwholesome deeds and words, are checked and kept under control. By the training in concentration the mind is made calm, pure and unified, purged of the currents of distractive thoughts. By the training in wisdom the concentrated beam of attention is focused upon the constituent factors of mind and body to investigate and contemplate their salient characteristics. This wisdom, gradually ripened, climaxes in the understanding that brings complete purification and deliverance of mind."
"The Buddha, did not regard morality merely as a set of rules based on reasoning. He taught that there is a universal law which connects our conduct with our personal destinies. This law is utterly impersonal in its operation."
I am not prepared to examine the ripple like qualities of every action, and then decide which are steps resonant or dissonant of the journey into Nibbana. I feel for some it might be very helpful to step first into a space of social morality before they step into a space of resonant morality.
You might find that the answers to some of the eight year old's questions have to be a general dilution of truth, rather than a direct relating of what is important/not important. Skillful relating is more resonant than whacking an unprepared mind with truth that confuses it.
I have seen too often where people assume that those teaching to relate to the path with rebirth do so out of wrong view or ignorance... instead of contemplating the reasoning behind relating the world to their students in that way.
We can also practise morality because we are simply human, because we have a conscience that experiences the results of our own harmful deeds.
Yes. I agree totally.
I didn't say morality is not important. However, just as long as someone feels compelled to do meritorious deeds due to rebirth or kamma they are harboring a defilement associated with self identification.
Furthermore, the example of teachers such as Thich Nhat Hanh leads me to believe that one can actually go a very very long way, perhaps all the way to enlightenment, without it.
Yep.