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Homosexuality
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Federica yes I will learn from my unskillful speech sooner or later, I find it difficult to be serious all of the time and prevent myself from offending people. I personally do not have much of an opinion on the DL, to me he is just another person, another monk despite what he is meant to be. However, he is very correct and has done a lot to help relieve the suffering of many people I am sure.
as i stated before, i felt the same way when i read it. sure, he says that we should not condemn homosexuality... but that doesn't mean that we should support it either. it always gave me the ol' "love the sinner, hate the sin" vibe. i'm sorry. i am far beyond thinking it is okay to allow people to "tolerate me". the problem lies in the fact that as a homosexual, i know that it is not a choice but will never be able to prove this.
but having said that, i should also mention that even if you're of the opinion that gays should be "tolerated" (as in, not mistreated but not supported) or even if you hate gays outright... that's okay. if you desire a discussion, i will be more than happy to explain my side of the argument, but i have learned to simply accept that not everyone will agree with me. even if it's something i feel very passionate about. sometimes it hurts, sometimes i can just let it roll off my back.
an example of this ideology and how it plays out in daily life is how my girlfriend's mother will always say, "you're almost the perfect daughter, except you're gay." without complete support, she is somehow seen less than. and it is very hurtful. it is impossible to really have equality when you don't have support.
as others have said, HHDL is a human being and not infallible. the way he feels does not particularly bother me as i am not a tibetan buddhist.
Then you have, if I may say so, a poor understanding of a a man who holds an important and traditional position, yet who is living in more liberal, modern, open-minded and permissive times.
He holds the weight of teachings, going back thousands of years, upon his shoulders. He has a massive responsibility to those who see him as a spiritual teacher, and one with total authority of his lineage. To be directly condemnatory of bias and prejudice against homosexuals (and I'm convinced he knows that it's exactly that) would be to undermine the very roots and foundations of the Line and teachings he represents. He declared, himself, that for one man to instrument a complete change in such matters is completely impossible. It takes time and cohesive agreement. he personally treats every single human he comes across with Kindness, love, compassion and happiness.
Sexuality is just a label, just as Man, Woman, Child, Doctor, gardener, illegitimate, sadist, housewife, cynic, multi-talented, are. All just superlative labels we choose to apply or adopt....
And he knows this.
It's time we realised it too.
What the hell does it matter, and why should it?
It is as much a choice for you, as me 'choosing' to be heterosexual.... Sheesh.....
This is completely their problem, not yours.
It's like the tattoo argument:
"The difference between people with tattoos, and people without tattoos, is that the people with tattoos don't give a damn if a person doesn't have a tattoo."
Yes, I get you. like it's a 'flaw'....
"And you're almost the perfect mother, except you're prejudiced".
Somehow I think you're too nice to come back with tht one.....
It's actually one of the reasons I'm not either, but it's not him, it's the Tradition and teaching I find weighted. I've met many Tibetan Buddhists and I adore them all. I just don't agree with everything the Teachings promote.
ZombieGirl, I'd like to say I constantly make the distinction between "Tolerance" and "acceptance".
I always lean towards the latter.
When she was younger, my daughter confessed to having strong feelings for another girl.
Frankly, I didn't bat an eyelid. Not because I wanted to show her I felt impartial, and was giving her a healthy response.
But because I really couldn't have cared less, one way, the other or another still... My opinion was that whatever made her a happy, contented individual, was what I wanted for her.
As it turned out, she's living with a guy and they had a baby together.
But had it turned out that she'd be sharing her life with another woman, that too would be fine.
Like I'd have the right to have any say in the matter. :rolleyes:
Love is love, and should be celebrated with enthusiasm wherever it is found.
People think sexuality is like a hair style. Sexual orientation is no more a "lifestyle choice" than liking or disliking broccoli. You either do or you don't, or you're somewhere in between the two. I mean, I like broccoli just fine, but I don't want to eat it every day. And some days I even like spinach instead of broccoli. And there are people I know who can't stand the sight of broccoli, but would eat spinach at every meal.
But that's a choice... Sheesh...
Precisely my point. People act like you actually *have* a choice. You have a choice of whether and when to act on it, but the orientation is organic. I believe it's subject to change in some people under some circumstances, but it's not a conscious "choice".
http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/buddhism.htm
Buddhism has three main branches: Theravada, the oldest form of Buddhism that emphasizes the monastic life; Mahayana Buddhism, a later form that includes Pure Land, Zen, Nichiren, and other sects; and Vajrayana, a unique form that arose in India and Tibet and is led by the Dalai Lama.
Though they share a common heritage, each of these branches has a somewhat different view of the way life should be lived in general and are thus treated separately in the article that follows.
Homosexuality in Buddhist Scriptures and Theravada Buddhism
Theravada Buddhism is most commonly found in Southeast Asia, and focuses on the original teachings of the Buddha. In Theravada Buddhism, there are two main ways of life: the life of the monk and the life of the lay person (i.e. ordinary person with a job, a family, a home, etc.)
Buddhist monks are expected to live lives of celibacy, meaning abstinence from any type of sex. There is no explicit rule prohibiting those with a homosexual orientation from monastic life. [1] However, in the Vinaya, the Buddha is recorded as opposing the ordination of those who openly expressed cross-gender features [2] or strong homosexual desires and actions [7]. The Buddhist sacred texts do contain a great deal of instances of loving relationships between unmarried men, which some believe to have homoerotic overtones. No sexual contact is mentioned in these instances, however. [1]
Lay Buddhists (those who live outside the monastery) are expected to adhere to Five Precepts, the third of which is a vow "not to engage in sexual misconduct." But what is sexual misconduct? Right and wrong behavior in Buddhism is generally determined by considerations such as the following:
* Universality principle - "How would I like it if someone did this to me?"
* Consequences - Does the act causes harm and regret (in oneself or others) or benefit and joy?
* Utilitarian principle - Will the act help or harm the attainment of goals (ultimately spiritual liberation)?
* Intention - Is the act motivated by love, generosity and understanding?
"Sexual misconduct" has thus traditionally been interpreted to include actions like coercive sex, sexual harassment, child molestation and adultery. As Homosexuality is not explicitly mentioned in any of the Buddha's sayings recorded in the Pali Canon (Tripitaka), most interpreters have taken this to mean that homosexuality should be evaluated in the same way as heterosexuality, in accordance with the above principles.
A Buddhist author of an article on homosexuality concludes:
In the case of the lay man and woman where there is mutual consent, where adultery is not involved and where the sexual act is an expression of love, respect, loyalty and warmth, it would not be breaking the third Precept. And it is the same when the two people are of the same gender. Likewise promiscuity, license and the disregard for the feelings of others would make a sexual act unskillful whether it be heterosexual or homosexual. All the principles we would use to evaluate a heterosexual relationship we would also use to evaluate a homosexual one. In Buddhism we could say that it is not the object of one's sexual desire that determines whether a sexual act is unskillful or not, but rather the quality of the emotions and intentions involved. [1]
It is also worth noting that Buddhism does not traditionally place great value on procreation like many western religions. From the Buddhist viewpoint, being married with children is regarded as generally positive, but not compulsory (although social norms in various Buddhist countries often have different views). [3]
Despite all this, in practice, Theravada Buddhist countries are not terribly open to homosexual practice. This has much to do with cultural norms, as well as the notion of karma, which remains strong in countries such as Thailand. From this viewpoint, a person's characteristics and situations are a result of past sins or good deeds. Homosexuality and other alternative forms of sexuality are often seen as karmic punishments for heterosexual misconduct in a past life. Thus far, the gay rights movement has not had great success in Theravada Buddhist countries. [7]
Homosexuality in Vajrayana/Tibetan Buddhism
In a 1997 interview, the Dalai Lama (the leader of Tibetan Buddhism and a widely-respected spiritual figure) was asked about homosexuality. He did not offer any strong answer either way, but noted that all monks are expected to refrain from sex. For laypeople, he commented that the purpose of sex in general is for procreation, so homosexual acts do seem a bit unnatural. He said that sexual desires in themselves are natural, perhaps including homosexual desires, but that one should not try to increase those desires or indulge them without self-control. [4]
In a 1993 talk given in Seattle, the Dalai Lama said:
nature arranged male and female organs "in such a manner that is very suitable... Same-sex organs cannot manage well." But he stopped short of condemning homosexual relationships altogether, saying if two people agree to enter a relationship that is not sexually abusive, "then I don't know. It's difficult to say." [5]
The Dalai Lama was more specific in a meeting with Buddhist leaders and human rights activists in San Francisco in 1997, where he commented that all forms of sex other than penile-vaginal sex are prohibited for Buddhists, whether between heterosexuals or homosexuals. At a press conference the day before the meeting, he said, "From a Buddhist point of view, [gay sex] is generally considered sexual misconduct." But he did note that this rule is for Buddhists, and from society's viewpoint, homosexual relationships can be "of mutual benefit, enjoyable, and harmless." [6]
The Dalai Lama is well known for his activism for human rights, and this specifically includes equal rights for gays. According to an Office of Tibet spokesman, "His Holiness opposes violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation. He urges respect, tolerance, compassion, and the full recognition of human rights for all." [6]
References
1. A. L. De Silva, "Homosexuality and Theravada Buddhism." BuddhaNet's Magazine Articles, accessed 2005.
2. Peter A. Jackson, "Thai Buddhist accounts of male homosexuality and AIDS in the 1980s ." Australian Journal of Anthropology, December 1995.
3. Kerry Trembath, "Buddhism and Homosexuality." Enabling.org, accessed 2005.
4. "On Homosexuality and Sex in General." Interview with the Dalai Lama, World Tibet Network News, Aug. 27, 1997.
5. "A Lesson on Life, Happiness." Dalai Lama's speech to Seattle crowd, World Tibet Network News, Jul. 1, 1993.
6. Dennis Conkin, "Dalai Lama urges 'respect, compassion, and full human rights for all,' including gays." Bay Area Reporter, San Francisco, Jun. 19, 1997.
7. Mettanando Bhikkhu, "Will Buddhists allow gay marriage?" Buddhist View International, Jul. 25, 2005.
Books on Homosexuality and Buddhism
* Bernard Faure, The Red Thread: Buddhist Approaches to Sexuality (Princeton University Press, 1998).
* Winston Layland, ed., Queer Dharma: Voices of Gay Buddhists (Gay Sunshine Press, 1998).
Zombiegirl, I grew up in a time and place where gays were not just discriminated against, they didn't exist. I had absolutely no role models growing up, so I assumed it was just me and that I was completely screwed up, so I indulged in a lot of self-hatred and alienation. But like you, I'm glad that I didn't grow up "mainstream" and become an empty, self-righteous, vacuous nebbish drinking beer and watching sitcoms and game shows while waiting to die. Whatever suffering I've gone through, it's better than that hell realm! One of my teachers is fond of saying, "Pray for adversity". I think it's one of the wisest teachings I've ever heard.
Palzang
Anyway, BACK TO TOPIC :P
It is no more out of order that if he presumed DL was straight. Slammed.
He should no more be praised than you or I.
You say the mintest things man!
Finally
I disagree with that the thing he said that you quoted rocked, however :-/
Agree. For actual safe butt-sex you'd need more than a hot shower, and they probably didn't even have them :-/;)
I don't think I'd be homophobic, Buddhist teaching enlightened me to not being of ignorant child-mind :P
LOL
Dunno, make a good love story. Forbidden love is so beautiful
EDIT- You consider yourself bisexual because love has no boundaries (:thumbsup:) but do you like think ewwww when you think of some parts of some people or are you like nah, It's OK...
Oooh, creepih' :crazy: :wtf:
Yeah and that guy's so definitely not cute. I mean he looks so delicate (not cute!) I'll beat him up. Just to- to- put him in his place like. Not so I get to touch him. Yeah, that's the reason
I'd say, "well you're almost a perfect mother, except that your a bit of a..." but I'll not be spiteful
About the Dalai Lama, I see your point, I really do. And I have heterosexist friends (AKA friends at all :rolleyes:) so, I'll tolerate
Round of applause
With me I have broccoli every day
Sexuality speaking, I'm disgusted (physically, not emotionally) at the thought (and yeah, I've seen
Even if it was a choice, on various levels you don't have a choice in hardly anything...
Godda say, your picture is SO cool
He actually named his band nirvana after staying up and watching a documentary on buddhism, although he wasn't exactly a great follower of the dharma :P
RIP kurt
What's that email address again?
PS: I agree about the bisexual 'no boundaries' thing - it's not about the sex, it's about the person. But different strokes for different folks. Some like broccoli, some like spinach, some like both, and some like neither. Personally, I kind of like spinach & broccoli salad, but a little heavier on the broccoli.
i've noticed this trend in my gay friends as well. most of them are vehemently anti-religion. it doesn't take a braniac to see that it is a result of nonacceptance. i felt this way at first as well. but then, i studied a lot and i got to the point where i could refute virtually any claim that the bible condemns homosexuality by resorting to the actual hebrew it was written in. so i did finally find acceptance from christianity, but even so, i felt that it no longer worked for me.
palzang, i'm sorry to hear about your experience but even though i assume we have years apart, unfortunately, it really aptly describes mine as well. i feel as though i didn't grow up in a time where gays were hidden...but definitely a place. when i started to realize i was gay, i was so confused because i honestly did think it was a choice, lol. i had been taught this, so when i started to have these feelings, i thought it was some crazy test from god. it led to years of denial because i didn't know any other gay people. i was 18 before i ever met another gay person face to face. i just have to be thankful for the internet, i really do believe it saved my life. i never attempted suicide, but i often fantasized about it. i also indulged in a lot of self-hatred. i was a confused teenager who felt that my life was completely out of my control. i became a classic textbook case when i found that the only thing i could control was the amount of pain and torture i put myself through. from burning to anorexia to beating myself with belts, i thought i deserved the pain. it seems crazy to me now, but this is the result of feeling that sexuality is a "choice" and god is some sort of puppet-master pulling the strings.
to say it sucked at the time is an understatement, haha. but now, i am happy that i went through all of it. i mean, i survived didn't i? i also feel that because the origin of sexuality is so difficult to pinpoint, and there really is no proof either way, experiences are very important when adding to the picture. i share my experience with anyone who asks me about homosexuality. most people really believe that it is a choice and have no idea how damaging this belief is. in my experience, people don't really want to hurt others, they're just naive because they've never thought about it. once you open their eyes to the result of anything less than "acceptance", they tend to see it more clearly. i have never told my story to a person and still had them walk away with contempt and anger toward gays.
palzang, i have no doubt that your suffering was probably worse than mine due to the time period. i have a great amount of respect for anyone who came before me and survived, blazing the trail, as it were. at least i had ellen on tv...
the world is changing, albeit slowly, but i really do believe that by expanding the minds of one person at a time, we can change the world. if i had the power, i wouldn't take back my experiences for the world. yes, i think we should all pray for adversity.
my sympathies to all of you middle class, straight, white, majority men out there
and btw, about my girlfriend's mother... she's really not a bad person. she's quite accepting of me (although she also says to me, "i just wish you were a guy!" hahahaha) and i enjoy talking with her. she's just veeeerrrrryyy southern baptist, lol. my girlfriend has banned me from having a real conversation about homosexuality with her mother... but one of these days... oh yes. it will happen. and i'm ready.
If you keep poking fun at my upbringing I am gonna have to sic a mod on ya.
Mountains - now, everytime I eat broccoli or spinach I'm going to be having quite intruiging thoughts. As if my imagination needed more encouragement
Also, I'm going to be getting even weirder looks saying - hey, check out that broccoli/spinach over there. I'd stir fry that vegetable with soy sauce and sesame seeds, anytime.
And with no fresh food market around... :eek:
(Kwai Chang Caine voice) "I am just- a man. I do not know."
(Theme music...)
Gush. I
I'm gonna tell my friends about these new metaphors
Very true, it's nice to see how everyone shares similarities
Call it a swede for fricksake