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Did the Dalai Lama teach to give candy to children to have sex with them?
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Thao, do you know how to write a blog? It would be nice to have a lot of this information collected so that one could refer to it when they needed. Seems like a good use of a blog.
I started a blog recently, and later on I will group the Tibetan posts together and the dangers of meditation together and then Self Realization Fellowship, etc. Here is the link: http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/
It isn't perfect, but I hope to make it better as time goes by.
I'd like to let this go and you do say you're going to group the Tibetan posts together, but this link is all about sexual abuses by Hindu gurus and problems in the SRF. Abuse is bad and there are lessons to be learned and examples to be made by comparing Hindu gurus with TB ones but in the end the TB tradition can't be held guilty for the failings of another tradition.
I know people in the different lineages, and yes they still practice this. Even on a certain Tibetan Buddhist forum, I was told that without sex you can not reach enlightenment, and then the talk of drinking alcohol and eating feces and urine. I haven't been able to find that quote, as some threads get deleted and some posts do as well.
In the Commentary book it speaks of visualizing fondling a 12 year old's breasts, but when it talks about a real women no age is given. It says that monks should drink alcohol, but it doesn't say to give it to children. Whether it is in the text and not the Commentary I don't know, but other tantras that I have mentioned speak of giving children sweets and or alcohol to get them to comply.
This came from a post from an ex Tibetan Buddhist:
"Some Gelug practitioners do use Tantric methods, including the techniques called Karma Mudra , which are the ones being alluded to. This has included previous Dalai Lamas.
All of the other schools, the Kagyu, the Sakya and particularly Nyingmapa use Karma Mudra which involves penetrative sex ...although not all individuals do. In fact most individuals dont."
I did find this:
"In the eight secret higher initiations of the Kalachakra Tantra, extreme mental and physical exercises are used to push the initiate into a state beyond good and evil. The original text thus requires the following misdeeds and crimes of him: killing, lying, stealing, infidelity, the consumption of alcohol, sexual intercourse with lower-class girls. As in all the other tantras, here too these requirements can be understood both symbolically and literally. Even the XIV Dalai Lama finds it legitimate for a Kalachakra adept to kill a person under special circumstances, "who are harmful to the [Buddhist] teaching". He insists, however, that this be "motivated by compassion" (Dalai Lama – The Kalachakra Tantra – Rite of Initiation - London, 1985, S. 348 ff.)."
This of course is Trimondis information. I do believe that the Kalacakra Commentary is not the real text but just a commentary on it. It is probably impossible to get the real text. The commentary does talk about doing opposite of what the Buddha taught, which is to have sex and drink alcohol.
I'd like to let this go and you do say you're going to group the Tibetan posts together, but this link is all about sexual abuses by Hindu gurus and problems in the SRF. Abuse is bad and there are lessons to be learned and examples to be made by comparing Hindu gurus with TB ones but in the end the TB tradition can't be held guilty for the failings of another tradition.
There are definitely posts on the TB as well. You have to look on the side and go down to the bottom: If you think that a lama is different than a Tibetan lama then you are wrong. There is just as much sexual abuse with lamas as there are with Hindu gurus.
It is what I posted here as far as I remember, but I left out comments from others.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
There are definitely posts on the TB as well. You have to look on the side and go down to the bottom: If you think that a lama is different than a Tibetan lama then you are wrong. There is just as much sexual abuse with lamas as there are with Hindu gurus.
Thanks for linking the actual posts. Maybe the TB lamas are as bad, its just not fair to use abuse by Hindu gurus to prove that they are.
This is an excerpt from the first link by Thao.
“The First Empowerment—The empowerment of the vase.
The point of this empowerment is to ripen the mind of the trainee. First, one imagines offering a girl, between the ages of 12 and 20, to the vajra master...The vase empowerment is actually given when the imagined girl comes back to the trainee who then enjoys her presence though laughing and foundling her breasts. Together with this, one offers the mandala and prayers to the vajra master and request the empowerments.
The vase empowerment is actually given when the imagined girl goes back to the trainee who then enjoys her presence through laughing and fondling her breasts. As one touches the girl’s breasts there arises the ‘bliss’ which should be experienced as indivisible from emptiness. .."
“The Second Empowerment:
“One imagines that the secret vajra (the penis of the lama) of the vajra master is placed in the mouth of the trainee and ones tastes the white bodhicitta (semen) of the vajra master. This white bodhicitta goes down to the heart-chakra of the devotee and there arises ‘great bliss’.
“The Third Empowerment:
“a visualized consort, or dakini-consort, is given to the trainee and they enter sexual union. From this union the white bodhicitta descends from the crown of one’s head. When it arrives at the throat-cakra there arises ‘joy.’ When it descends to the heart-cakra there arises ‘supreme joy’. When it descends to the navel-cakra there arises ‘extraordinary joy’. And when it descends to the genital-cakra there arises the ‘spontaneous joy’, which is the highest of these four…
Notice the words in bold.
It does go on to say.
“The fifth major energy, the pervasive is very difficult to draw into the heart. In order to do so, it is indispensable for the yogin to meditate in union with an actual consort or a dakini. In other words, the reason why it is necessary for the yogin to actually engage in such a practice is to bring that final, pervasive energy into the heart.”
“One actualizes Kalacakra with consort, who are composed of just energy and consciousness and attains the rainbow body.”
So, yes, actual physical union is used at the last stages but that doesn't mean abuse is required and it isn't lustful, pleasurable sex. If thats what someone tells you thats not tantra anymore and just an excuse for abuse.
Even the XIV Dalai Lama finds it legitimate for a Kalachakra adept to kill a person under special circumstances, "who are harmful to the [Buddhist] teaching". He insists, however, that this be "motivated by compassion" (Dalai Lama – The Kalachakra Tantra – Rite of Initiation - London, 1985, S. 348 ff.)."
Yes, he's also said that if he had a machine gun and was standing in front of Hitler he'd probably kill him. I think this is a common thread when discussing the precepts and when its ok to break them. I don't see any issue here.
Maybe, but if anyone is going to say that the Tibetans are warlike I think thats rediculous. I think its fair to use the Shambala war passages as an argument that the tantras weren't taught by the Buddha but not to condemn TB when its obvious to anyone that it isn't militant.
Because Tibetan Buddhist ethics are different from other Buddhists. They have what is called The Law of Inversion, in which after you have become a lama you can drink alcohol, steal, kill, have sex, etc.
Hevajra Tantra: “A wise man ... should remove the filth of his mind by filth ... one must rise by that through which one falls”, or, more vividly, “As flatulence is cured by eating beans so that wind may expel wind, as a thorn in the foot can be removed by another thorn, and as a poison can be neutralized by poison, so sin can purge sin”. For the same reason, the Kalachakra Tantra exhorts its pupils to commit the following: to kill, to lie, to steal, to break the marriage vows, to drink alcohol, to have sexual relations with lower-class girls A Tantric is freed from the chains of the wheel of life by precisely that which imprisons a normal person."
The article on abuse and gurus was written during the time that i had left hindusim. both hinduism and tibetan buddhism is now on the blog. so that article was aimed at hindu gurus.
The law of inversion is in the kalacakra tantra, so i don't really see how you can dismiss it.
It is bizarre. The reason I made a thread is to examine this question. Due to the fact that people believe this. People believe this. It frustrated me to have a discussion in the other threads with this coming up again and again. And so I wanted a thread to examine this issue for clarity.
I did not post this with the intention of upsetting people or making anyone look bad. That is unfortunate. The intention was for everyone to bring their assumptions to light.
Unfortunately I am not sure how much we can accomplish. Because I cannot prove anything either way. I had hoped that someone would discredit the reasoning of compassionate warrior and Thao. From what I understand their sources suggest that this is true. So we need to examine how they got to that conclusion.
I think it's a bit irresponsible.
You've put the idea in people's heads with no real evidence at all.
It may have been irresponsible. But my question was to ask this question. I had hoped that we could get to the bottom of this and show that it is not true.
I do not fault Thao or compassionate warrior for having this question. But I don't think we should AVOID the issue just because it is uncomfortable.
@vinylyn as far as evidence, do you see the evidence that @Thao has presented? They seem convinced of it. Thao believes that since one text mentions giving candy. And since people she talked to admitted that they had sex as part of tantra. She connects the two together. Which is to say she believes that this practice of giving candy to children is occuring in sanghas.
The alternative is that Thao is using it for shock value to make an emotional argument. I am not clear on that, I did ask for a logical summary without walls of text.
@compassionate_warrior believes that these are ancient teachings not practiced in the modern world. Does he believe they are visualizations? I am not sure.. Anyhow he believes that the text is not a commentary rather it is part of the highest tantra. I have lost the thread of WHY he believes it is a highest tantra rather than a commentary. The question cw has is whether this is just a historical transmission without the intention of practicing these things.
What I think is inappropriate is the title of the thread: "Did the Dalai Lama teach to give candy to children to have sex with them?" Sort of like if someone wrote, "I don't think that Ralph is a child molester." It puts the idea in someone's head without a shred of evidence.
I will personal message @federica to change it to "Did the transmission of tantra given by HHDL have innapropriate content?"
@vinylyn you are right I am an idiot. Thats always good to know. You know when you are one so you don't create too many problems.
Jeff
edit: actually I can just put @ fed to let her know. I'll send a pm if it doesn't get changed in a few days. Thanks for the feedback vinylyn. I was foolishly blunt.
Jeffrey, I'm not sure it's Thao and C_W who have combined the two texts the way you portray. I think you may have confused the two in your mind. This is not an accusation, it's a recognition of that face that a) we do have a lot of similar threads going at the same time, discussing different texts, which can create some confusion, and b)it's a very emotional subject we're discussing in general, so discussants may react emotionally. That's how I interpreted your OP--as an emotional reaction, but it's understandable after being bombarded for a week or two with a lot of new and controversial info, as well as old rants. But I think for the most part, this and the other discussions have been handled well. Everyone's cut each other some slack, and has responded thoughtfully. I understand your need to clarify the question, so we can do that. If we haven't already.
I think person has provided valuable input by clarifying that some of the practices are done by visualization.
Was it person who came up with that DL reference, that he actually said that if he had a machine gun and Hitler were standing nearby, he'd probably kill him? I haven't heard/seen that one, and I try to follow HHDL's speeches pretty closely. Do you have a link or reference to that one?
I think there's a difference between giving extreme moral examples like that one, which illustrates the "for a higher good" principle allowing one to break a precept, and saying that yogis/highly realized teachers can kill, lie, commit violent acts, and other transgressions because they're functioning on a higher plane where mundane morality doesn't apply. I've come across text that says the teacher (or bodhisattva, in some versions) can do anything he/she needs to do in order to advance a student along the path of the dharma. I don't think that's necessary. Maybe that's where Zen roshis get their justification for yelling at or swatting the student with a switch, or whatever. But TB seems to go a lot farther, saying it's ok to kill, etc.
I don't believe HHDL would force or manipulate or entice anyone to do something against their will. I think he was transmitting this tradition as the final stage of the Kalachakra tradition, the esoteric stage.
I forgot to say: requiring visualization of sexual activity with a 12-year old (10-year old, the Hevajra Tantra) is still sick. It encourages pedophilia, and is evidence of pedophilia among those who dreamed up those rituals. Probably came from ancient tradition in India, and so, is anachronistic.
It may have been irresponsible. But my question was to ask this question. I had hoped that we could get to the bottom of this and show that it is not true.
I do not fault Thao or compassionate warrior for having this question. But I don't think we should AVOID the issue just because it is uncomfortable.
I didn't really have this question, it was your question, Jeffrey. I was only saying that there are similar traditions in all the sects. I certainly hope there's nothing practiced in our time that involves sex with minors, or any kind of coerced sex. It's entirely possible that if these traditions are still practiced, that the part involving girls would be visualized. My university professor told us all tantric ritual is practiced by visualization, but after reading these threads, I'm doubting his veracity on that point. I don't recall that he mentioned anything about using girls, about vase empowerments, none of that. It was a long time ago, I don't remember every detail.
Right, I think that on the part of the Dalai Lama it's a historical transmission, not current practice. Maybe that's my preference to believe that HH wouldn't do these things, but I have nothing factual to base that on. I can't begin to guess about other traditions within the Gelug (NKT, New Jonang, for example), nor can I guess about other high lamas in general within the Gelug tradition.
I think it's a higher tantra because (didn't I explain this on an earlier page? Or earlier thread, maybe...) a) it does describe rituals and gives instructions to them. It's not an analytical text, and b) based on online research, this fits the pattern of the esoteric rituals for other sects. But it wouldn't hurt to do some more research, which I may do over time.
You're a good sport to hash all this out and try to get to the bottom of things, Jeffrey. The problem is, it's been secret up until at least the publication of the "Commentary" book (I'll scout around and see if there are similar revelatory books for any of the other sects), so we can't know anything for sure. There's the Shadow of the Dalai Lama book, but not everyone accepts that as authoritative, so it would be nice to have other corroborating material. But as Thao has pointed out, the "Commentary" book does, in fact, corroborate what's in the "Shadow" book.
@compassionate_warrior believes that these are ancient teachings not practiced in the modern world. Does he believe they are visualizations? I am not sure.. Anyhow he believes that the text is not a commentary rather it is part of the highest tantra. I have lost the thread of WHY he believes it is a highest tantra rather than a commentary. The question cw has is whether this is just a historical transmission without the intention of practicing these things.
The last link above looks like it was taken from The Shadow of the Dali Lama, and you know what? It is the same as what I have in the Commentary book, only they added so much more than what I had copied from the book.
Comments
In the Commentary book it speaks of visualizing fondling a 12 year old's breasts, but when it talks about a real women no age is given. It says that monks should drink alcohol, but it doesn't say to give it to children. Whether it is in the text and not the Commentary I don't know, but other tantras that I have mentioned speak of giving children sweets and or alcohol to get them to comply.
This came from a post from an ex Tibetan Buddhist:
"Some Gelug practitioners do use Tantric methods, including the techniques called Karma Mudra , which are the ones being alluded to. This has included previous Dalai Lamas.
All of the other schools, the Kagyu, the Sakya and particularly Nyingmapa use Karma Mudra which involves penetrative sex ...although not all individuals do. In fact most individuals dont."
I did find this:
"In the eight secret higher initiations of the Kalachakra Tantra, extreme mental and physical exercises are used to push the initiate into a state beyond good and evil. The original text thus requires the following misdeeds and crimes of him: killing, lying, stealing, infidelity, the consumption of alcohol, sexual intercourse with lower-class girls. As in all the other tantras, here too these requirements can be understood both symbolically and literally. Even the XIV Dalai Lama finds it legitimate for a Kalachakra adept to kill a person under special circumstances, "who are harmful to the [Buddhist] teaching". He insists, however, that this be "motivated by compassion" (Dalai Lama – The Kalachakra Tantra – Rite of Initiation - London, 1985, S. 348 ff.)."
http://adishakti.org/_/critical_forum_for_the_investigation_of_the_kalachakra_tantra_and_the_shambhala_myth.htm
This of course is Trimondis information. I do believe that the Kalacakra Commentary is not the real text but just a commentary on it. It is probably impossible to get the real text. The commentary does talk about doing opposite of what the Buddha taught, which is to have sex and drink alcohol.
I'd like to let this go and you do say you're going to group the Tibetan posts together, but this link is all about sexual abuses by Hindu gurus and problems in the SRF. Abuse is bad and there are lessons to be learned and examples to be made by comparing Hindu gurus with TB ones but in the end the TB tradition can't be held guilty for the failings of another tradition.
There are definitely posts on the TB as well. You have to look on the side and go down to the bottom: If you think that a lama is different than a Tibetan lama then you are wrong. There is just as much sexual abuse with lamas as there are with Hindu gurus.
Here are the direct links:
http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-is-in-kalachakra-tantra.html
http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.com/2011/06/did-buddha-teach-tantras.html
It is what I posted here as far as I remember, but I left out comments from others.
This is an excerpt from the first link by Thao.
“The First Empowerment—The empowerment of the vase.
The point of this empowerment is to ripen the mind of the trainee. First, one imagines offering a girl, between the ages of 12 and 20, to the vajra master...The vase empowerment is actually given when the imagined girl comes back to the trainee who then enjoys her presence though laughing and foundling her breasts. Together with this, one offers the mandala and prayers to the vajra master and request the empowerments.
The vase empowerment is actually given when the imagined girl goes back to the trainee who then enjoys her presence through laughing and fondling her breasts. As one touches the girl’s breasts there arises the ‘bliss’ which should be experienced as indivisible from emptiness. .."
“The Second Empowerment:
“One imagines that the secret vajra (the penis of the lama) of the vajra master is placed in the mouth of the trainee and ones tastes the white bodhicitta (semen) of the vajra master. This white bodhicitta goes down to the heart-chakra of the devotee and there arises ‘great bliss’.
“The Third Empowerment:
“a visualized consort, or dakini-consort, is given to the trainee and they enter sexual union. From this union the white bodhicitta descends from the crown of one’s head. When it arrives at the throat-cakra there arises ‘joy.’ When it descends to the heart-cakra there arises ‘supreme joy’. When it descends to the navel-cakra there arises ‘extraordinary joy’. And when it descends to the genital-cakra there arises the ‘spontaneous joy’, which is the highest of these four…
Notice the words in bold.
It does go on to say.
“The fifth major energy, the pervasive is very difficult to draw into the heart. In order to do so, it is indispensable for the yogin to meditate in union with an actual consort or a dakini. In other words, the reason why it is necessary for the yogin to actually engage in such a practice is to bring that final, pervasive energy into the heart.”
“One actualizes Kalacakra with consort, who are composed of just energy and consciousness and attains the rainbow body.”
So, yes, actual physical union is used at the last stages but that doesn't mean abuse is required and it isn't lustful, pleasurable sex. If thats what someone tells you thats not tantra anymore and just an excuse for abuse. Yes, he's also said that if he had a machine gun and was standing in front of Hitler he'd probably kill him. I think this is a common thread when discussing the precepts and when its ok to break them. I don't see any issue here.
in the quote it sounds more like religious war.
I got a good laugh out of all that this morning, thanks.
The law of inversion is in the kalacakra tantra, so i don't really see how you can dismiss it.
This one is quality isn't it Mr. Serenity
You've put the idea in people's heads with no real evidence at all.
I do not fault Thao or compassionate warrior for having this question. But I don't think we should AVOID the issue just because it is uncomfortable.
@vinylyn as far as evidence, do you see the evidence that @Thao has presented? They seem convinced of it. Thao believes that since one text mentions giving candy. And since people she talked to admitted that they had sex as part of tantra. She connects the two together. Which is to say she believes that this practice of giving candy to children is occuring in sanghas.
The alternative is that Thao is using it for shock value to make an emotional argument. I am not clear on that, I did ask for a logical summary without walls of text.
@compassionate_warrior believes that these are ancient teachings not practiced in the modern world. Does he believe they are visualizations? I am not sure.. Anyhow he believes that the text is not a commentary rather it is part of the highest tantra. I have lost the thread of WHY he believes it is a highest tantra rather than a commentary. The question cw has is whether this is just a historical transmission without the intention of practicing these things.
@Thao and @compassionate_warrior... Did I get this right or misrepresent you guys?
if it includes un-ethical behaviour, it should be exposed.
@vinylyn you are right I am an idiot. Thats always good to know. You know when you are one so you don't create too many problems.
Jeff
edit: actually I can just put @ fed to let her know. I'll send a pm if it doesn't get changed in a few days. Thanks for the feedback vinylyn. I was foolishly blunt.
I think person has provided valuable input by clarifying that some of the practices are done by visualization.
Was it person who came up with that DL reference, that he actually said that if he had a machine gun and Hitler were standing nearby, he'd probably kill him? I haven't heard/seen that one, and I try to follow HHDL's speeches pretty closely. Do you have a link or reference to that one?
I think there's a difference between giving extreme moral examples like that one, which illustrates the "for a higher good" principle allowing one to break a precept, and saying that yogis/highly realized teachers can kill, lie, commit violent acts, and other transgressions because they're functioning on a higher plane where mundane morality doesn't apply. I've come across text that says the teacher (or bodhisattva, in some versions) can do anything he/she needs to do in order to advance a student along the path of the dharma. I don't think that's necessary. Maybe that's where Zen roshis get their justification for yelling at or swatting the student with a switch, or whatever. But TB seems to go a lot farther, saying it's ok to kill, etc.
I don't believe HHDL would force or manipulate or entice anyone to do something against their will. I think he was transmitting this tradition as the final stage of the Kalachakra tradition, the esoteric stage.
Right, I think that on the part of the Dalai Lama it's a historical transmission, not current practice. Maybe that's my preference to believe that HH wouldn't do these things, but I have nothing factual to base that on. I can't begin to guess about other traditions within the Gelug (NKT, New Jonang, for example), nor can I guess about other high lamas in general within the Gelug tradition.
I think it's a higher tantra because (didn't I explain this on an earlier page? Or earlier thread, maybe...) a) it does describe rituals and gives instructions to them. It's not an analytical text, and b) based on online research, this fits the pattern of the esoteric rituals for other sects. But it wouldn't hurt to do some more research, which I may do over time.
You're a good sport to hash all this out and try to get to the bottom of things, Jeffrey. The problem is, it's been secret up until at least the publication of the "Commentary" book (I'll scout around and see if there are similar revelatory books for any of the other sects), so we can't know anything for sure. There's the Shadow of the Dalai Lama book, but not everyone accepts that as authoritative, so it would be nice to have other corroborating material. But as Thao has pointed out, the "Commentary" book does, in fact, corroborate what's in the "Shadow" book.
@compassionate_warrior believes that these are ancient teachings not practiced in the modern world. Does he believe they are visualizations? I am not sure.. Anyhow he believes that the text is not a commentary rather it is part of the highest tantra. I have lost the thread of WHY he believes it is a highest tantra rather than a commentary. The question cw has is whether this is just a historical transmission without the intention of practicing these things.
@Thao and @compassionate_warrior... Did I get this right or misrepresent you guys?
Here it is on another website:
http://www.namgyal.org/events/details.cfm?id=199
http://tantralovemaking.com/533/the-kalachakra-tantra-and-mantra/
http://goldenchipmunk.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/kalachakra-the-public-and-the-secret-initiations/