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Tripping
Talisman
Veteran
Although looking back on things, my own neurosis and fears often times left a damper on some of the psychedelic experiences I used to have, I do feel that there is a strong correlation between the types of insight gained while under the influence and my current interest in Buddhist metaphysics and philosophy.
Then again, maybe my natural inclinations and views were simply expanded upon while tripping. I remember coming up with certain concepts and ideas when I was a child that resonate in my studies today. Perhaps with the "doors of perception" open, my mind worked like a magnifying glass, illuminating the nature of reality based on insights I had already gained in my youth.
It's hard to tell. I do know that I don't regret tripping, and if the opportunity arose to trip with my dad and other members of my family and friends, I don't think I would turn it down. Has anyone else had a similar feeling toward these kind of experiences?
Then again, maybe my natural inclinations and views were simply expanded upon while tripping. I remember coming up with certain concepts and ideas when I was a child that resonate in my studies today. Perhaps with the "doors of perception" open, my mind worked like a magnifying glass, illuminating the nature of reality based on insights I had already gained in my youth.
It's hard to tell. I do know that I don't regret tripping, and if the opportunity arose to trip with my dad and other members of my family and friends, I don't think I would turn it down. Has anyone else had a similar feeling toward these kind of experiences?
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It's a dangerous path because of the raw psychological violence of the hallucinogenic experience, the uncertainty of the effects, the wide array of different substances, etc. You plunge yourself into this jarring, alien experience, but you really have no context in which to properly interpret these experiences. I don't regret my own experimentation either, but looking back, I can see how horribly unprepared I was. If psychedelics were ever seriously incorporated into some sort of path, as much care, oversight, and analysis would be needed as in something like the higher Tantric practices.
I'm outta work now. Look forward to seeing more comments tomorrow. Laterz
I have experienced things like ego loss and what I would call a complete acceptance of life. Basically, I have experienced things of which I don't have a conceptual understanding.
Personally, I don't know if they match up with buddhist states of concentration; but, I have read accounts of advanced meditation practitioners being able to take large amounts of acid and know exactly where it took them. All I know is that I have experienced things of which I don't have a conceptual understanding, and it was an important factor in driving me toward buddhism. My drive is not for the ability to get high without substances, but as a result of the immense truth that I felt (sorry I am sure that is not an apt description, but that is the best I can do with words).
EDIT: @NOTaGangsta you are right. Once finding the path with the drugs, you must drop them. Just like dropping the raft after crossing the river.
"Dropping the raft after crossing the river." I like that quote. ;D
"Dropping the raft after crossing the river." I like that quote. ;D
i don't trip much often anymore because i now only have bad trips.
it seems all the negativity comes outwards when i trip. once you have that door open there is no way to really shut it.
but i did learn a lot of valuable things from tripping. there is just no more stuff to learn, thus i moved on.
i've had an infinite variety of different experiences while tripping. coming into contact with the clear white light. feeling the various chakra centers. leaving my body and moving upwards to the crown. flowing into a tunnel within my third eye then down my spinal cord and then my eyes flying open revealing that all there is, is right in front of me. having consciousness expand infinitely outwards and inwards. seeing the indra's net and beads of rainbow/iridescent jewels in everything. all my friends turning into demonic creatures and scaring the shit out of me.
things i learned: you're not going anywhere, there is just this. there is no subject or object. nothing lasts everything is constantly in flux. everything is about mind and what we project. also tripping is not the answer. it only reveals what is most apparent. what you access while tripping can be accessed whenever you want. tripping is not entertainment, it is throwing yourself onto a rocket that flies wherever the hell it wants to. there is no control, you will learn what you need to.
btw drugs are terrible for you physically and mentally. not only can you fuck your mind up, you can really and truly harm those around you. make sure you have good intentions and great set/setting if you do anything. a controlled environment with no variables for a bad trip is highly recommended. take care people. also meditation trumps tripping any day.
also it's good to have xanax ready if you're having a bad trip. as this will totally get rid of your trip altogether.
when in doubt stop and sit. breath in and out. turn off your mind and go with the flow.
the best conditions is to be with a shaman in a tribal setting. these people know and have the maps that these "drugs" enforce on you.
(This coming from someone who's done his share of drugs.)
it is what you make it.
worth a read. it's worth tripping once or twice in your life.
then get on with it. move on or you're just abusing it.
anyways wish you all the best folks!
for minds with tendencies towards mental instability, tripping is dangerous
tripping has probably sent more people to psychiatric institutions than to enlightenment
whatever underlying tendencies there are, tripping will enhance them
take care
:skeptic:
on my first trip to Nepal, I took a rowboat out on Phewa Lake in Pokhara
although i had not taken drugs for two years, in the prior four months i did my first ever meditation, intensively, and obtained very satisfying results
i had just turned 24 and my younger sister just turned 18. my younger sister was quite inexperienced & innocent, compared to myself at her age
at Pokhara we went to a cafe on the lake and were offered a ganja pancake. now, ingesting ganja (via pancake, cookie, etc) can be far more effective for those for which smoking just makes them drousy
so i asked my sister did she wish to try and, with my strong encouragement, she agreed
we then rowed across Phewa Lake, got to the other side, and had a swim on a beach
then i suddenly saw the drug coming on to my sister. she had a euphoric smile for a few moments and then her face literally turned pale; yellow green
suddenly this stuff hit me also and i was the most powerful substance i have ever experienced, by far
fortunately, i could always control my mind under the influence. for example, at university, i would attend discussions & presentations we had to give to visiting businesspeople - or dinner with my girlfriends parents - very stoned (with the eyedrops) and no one ever knew
so i rowed back across the lake, with my sister completely wiped out & spinning out
when we got back to the shore, she was worse. i thought she was going to die
after struggling to find any help with backpackers, i returned to the cafe and advised what happened. the cafe owner made a concoction out of lemon juice and my sister drunk it, which caused her to vomit up the pancake. she then fell soundly asleep, which satisfied me.
i then drank some myself, vomitted and had a short sleep
i was only when i returned to Australia the next year, that i got over believing drugs could help spiritual life, after seeing my zombie friends still zombied out, having no interest in what i found through Buddhism
as for my sister, she has never taken a drug again in her life
in hindsight, she does not have the personality for drugs. they could only harm her if she took an interest
regards
At least 3 people I used to know ended up like zombies in psychaitric intitutions as a result of drugs.
That said, people take all kinds calculated risks everyday. There are much riskier ventures in life, but it's a total lack of knowledge that creates the danger. Scare stories will not make people less likely to make stupid decisions.
Particular cultures are more prone to 'abusing' drugs, then being registered insane by an unsympathetic establishment.
People who do stupid things take the wrong drugs, mix drugs, don't prepare properly or weren't ready for the experience. You wouldn't skydive without having your parachute properly packed and inspected, right? Fasting and meditation over a 24 hour period prior to taking mushrooms is a must for me. This clears my mind and helps me be completely open for my experience. If you aren't completely open, you may fight against your experience which only brings about a "bad" trip. The whole experience is a humbling lesson and I wish I could share it with those who have such negative views on mushrooms. The drug path isn't for everybody and it must be shed to continue the path. I think they are tools, it is all about wisdom and intention.
Don't remember them much.. at all!
Much much better was meditation everyday. I will say though my first time taking mushrooms was amazing and it was after the first time having many very successful meditations. However substances I believe played a part in ending my daily meditation practice and any freedom from negative mental states.
In the past week I've turned down friends offering me cocaine twice, to buy mushrooms, weed, drink alchohol, buy ecstacy.
I don't really think it's helping my 'friends' very much.
I don't like the idea of taking a drug and trying to have a good time. Which is how the people I surround myself do it. Like what if you don't? It's awkward haha ?
I'll just say if you must, trip responsibly.
I have a lot of experience with both hallucinogens and a lot of other drugs. While sometimes there was a steep price tag involved, both figuratively and literally, I don't really regret any of it.
I confess that I'm a little bit annoyed by what I perceive as the tendency to sneer at the utility of 'mind altering substances'. I agree with everyone here who has expressed the understanding that these substances have no inherent long term value and that they don't point in any particular direction. I also agree that they probably produce a net result of more suffering than 'enlightenment'.
Even so, this is the Kali Yuga, and it's important not to underestimate the withering power of the nihilistic, materialistic worldview that we are inculcated with in this culture. It builds up into a kind of crusty scab that tends to preclude any pursuit of pursuit of 'spiritual' realization, Buddhist or otherwise. Sometimes this crust becomes so thick and hard that the hammer-blow violence of an intense psychedelic experience is required to create a breach in it.
Is such psychological violence dangerous? Of course it is, and there's no guarantee that anything will be achieved. And sometimes, even when the breach is achieved, nothing worthwhile is done with it and it becomes a source of continuous psychic trauma. I've seen a lot of this... people whose certainty in the stability of conventional experience is stripped away, and replaced by nothing. In my case, however, I have no doubt that my early experimentation with various substances was an important component of my development. Frankly, I suspect that it took some of the edge out of my arrogance and casual narcissism.
Things I learned during drug induced experiences: the totally fragmentary nature of my ego and identity; an intuitive grasp of the first noble truth; absolute undiluted love for my family and friends; an abiding sense of the mind-blowing mysteriousness of 'being', which I will never lose.
No doubt I would have come to understand these things without the aid of drugs. However, the intensity and clarity of these experiences made it hard to brush off the lessons learnt. The psychedelic experience is unpredictable and potentially damaging, but there is a place for it in this world.
"Ingesting a powerful dose of a psychedelic drug is like strapping oneself to a rocket without a guidance system."
Setting helps, but whatever is present in your mind at the time is going to be magnified. It may manifest as blissful clarity and connection or paranoid psychosis.
I did a lot of acid in my youth (late teens, early 20's). Long time ago. Don't regret it at all. It was the highest of highs (beyond description) and the scariest of lows (beyond description.) But after all is said and done, it is just like any experience. You take from it what is of value, and then let it go and move on.
Best Wishes
please take care :skeptic:
"If you want to get fried off your ass, at least have the decency to admit it. Don't try to convince us you are on some grand spiritual quest. Drugs won't show you the truth. Drugs will only show you what it's like to be on drugs." ~Brad Warner, Hardcore Zen
Very succinct and to the point, as he always is.
The Buddha certainly had both the option and the wealth to engage in such behavior as much as he pleased, but neither embraced nor advocated such behavior in the least.
i think there may be something dangerous about a mind that is constantly looking outside itself toward drugs for clarity and relief in this world. i don't think you'll ever find it with drugs and the search itself might just lead you further and further away from what you thought you were looking for. so many people close to me have formed serious addictions to drugs (heroin, especially) and they always seem to think, "i am bigger than this." but they soon find out that they are not. nobody seems to think that THEY could become an addict. it is heart wrenching.
I don't think it is worth it for anyone to find out the hard way whether or not they are an addict by tripping to find some 'spiritual experience'. And I say this as someone with intimate knowledge about the subject. I too started out tripping, smoking, and doing all kinds of drugs, often times under the guise of seeking some spiritual enlightenment. But for me, the craving for the drugs completely overshadowed any perceived enlightenment, and instead of reaching nirvana, I found myself in hell.
That being said, I don't regret my past. Everything that happened led me to where I am now, and for that I am grateful. But if I had any advice to anyone seeking enlightenment or spiritual experiences, it is that you DO NOT NEED DRUGS to find them. And in fact, if you are predisposed to addiction, you may end up finding quite the opposite - and at a cost that is much greater than you may ever have imagined.
I think the fact that the Buddha devoted an entire Precept to avoiding intoxicants goes a long way to supporting this viewpoint too, at least IMHO.
Namaste'
Kwan Kev
What I find interesting is that the people who reported they had spiritual experiences while on drugs all seem to say the same thing: if you must, use responsibly, get what you need from it, and move on. Nobody is advocating doing drugs to gain enlightenment, nor is anybody saying that prolonged drug use is healthy for the body or mind. If you haven't had a spiritual experience on hallucinogens, you probably just can't relate to those who have. That is fine, but don't discredit our experiences because you don't understand (simply having done hallucinogens isn't understanding, you have to approach it from a very different mindset).
First of all, my trip experiences dealt specifically with mushrooms, just so people here can have the details. Other psychedelics were not my cup of tea, especially acid which I found to be dangerous and strange.
Second of all, as a Buddhist, use of drugs should never be advocated for the purposes of seeking lasting happiness or liberation/enlightenment. There was a time in my life where I believed that use of psychedelics in the proper environment, et al, could be the end-all be-all of the spiritual journey. That somewhere in these chemicals and their effects was the answer for why I am here and how am supposed to live my life and how I can be happier in general.
I even started to create my own religion based on the use of mushrooms as a sacrament. It was while researching the structure and beliefs of other religions that I started gaining a very real interest in Buddhism, and it took a long time for me to accept the fact that maybe I had been wrong.
There came a time where I realized that any kind of happiness or insight or wisdom gained from the psychedlic experience was so fleeting and impermanent. Even the memories of my trips became disatisfying and vague like trying to remember a dream from childhood. It was long after I had left the psychedelic experience behind me, along with weed and even alcohol, that my first real glimpse at purpose and path was revealed.
By giving up drugs and alcohol, I was able to save money and was forced to spend time doing other things that I would normally have wasted high on the couch. I have gained weight and muscles and now look better than I ever have before. I have paid bakc my debts to my university and am starting school again after 4 years of confusion and loss and struggle surrounded by a cloud of drug use and anger and frustration. I have a better libido even and my relationship with my girlfriend has become more dynamic and real, even though she is still very much into smoking green (she is 3 years younger than me so I'm being patient.)
When it comes down to it, I cannot regret the experiences I had on drugs. I did have some out-of-this-world experiences and even the suffering I endured has led me to seek a better path. I am really glad that people responded to my post. I feel like working this out has given me a chance to re-examine the reasons I abondoned my "old life." As some of my old friends form those times are starting to come back into my life, it's more important than ever that I remain steadfast in my mindfulness and adherance to the precepts.
Love you guys :om:
i read this whole book a while ago. it is very insightful and basically gives a pro/con summary about drugs and their relation to buddhism here in the west. drugs were also used in the east, but not much has been recorded about that.
I am also highlighting both the experience and the viewpoint of the millions of family members, relatives, neighbors, friends, teachers, store clerks, hotel maids, police, firemen, paramedics, social workers, nursing aides, and janitors who have to clean up the mess afterwards. If you haven't had the spiritual experience of cleaning up the feces, vomit, and broken and dead bodies, minds, hearts, and lives left behind by people on hallucinogens, you haven't experienced anything more than your own deluded imagination.
However, it's absolutely absurd for you to class the growing and selling of marijuana and psilocybin in the same category. Marijauna is a borderline industry, with regards to criminality and social blight - it functions largely as an underground cottage industry in California, does not involve risky smuggling and tends to employ a wide range of people who are not coerced into this activity. A lot of people grow their own. Regarding psilocybin - mushrooms - this is something people grow in their backyards and in their kitchen cabinets. It's clear to me that you just don't really understand the way this 'drug culture' differs from the large scale criminal operations of the narcotics trade.
Further, you really need to tone down the personal attacks and hyperbole. You are grossly mischaracterizing the motivations and experiences of people who derive real value from use of these substances. And how dare you assume anything about the class background, psychological or intellectual status of anyone based solely on the fact of their consumption of "drugs". You're blinded by your emotional hysteria. Seriously, cut out the self-righteous aggression.
Edit: Frankly, I'm infuriated by this: "If you haven't had the spiritual experience of cleaning up the feces, vomit, and broken and dead bodies, minds, hearts, and lives left behind by people on hallucinogens, you haven't experienced anything more than your own deluded imagination. "
I've experienced both sides of the coin. All the people I've known who've suffered psychiatric institutionalization, imprisonment.... Suicides, broken up families, homelessness. I have plenty of direct first hand experience with the consequences of the way criminality and narcotics culture relate in this country. This hasn't diminished my ability to differentiate from the nature of a SUBSTANCE and the ways in which it might be used, and the current way a substance FUNCTIONS in a certain social format.
@aura, you obviously have been impacted negatively by drugs in your lifetime. You keep arguing a point that, while applicable to many situations, is not applicable to all. Your statements seem to assume that drugs always come from a gang or some horrible people. This simply isn't the case. Drugs aren't going to disappear anytime soon. So in the mean time, take a long hard look at how drug policies in this country effect the neighborhoods, children, other countries, etc. Then go look up what Lisbon, Portugal has done to help their drug problems and how effective it has been.
There is no denying that drugs can ruin peoples' lives; however, the drugs aren't the problem. The problem is the people who have no business doing drugs in the first place. The problem is suppression, which tends to lead to excess when freed from that suppression. The problem is people who continue to blame the drugs, rather than the person who took them.
@aura, you can demonize hallucinogens all you want. You can tell me I am deluded. You can call me a "big spoiled brat of a nihilistic materialistic whining baby." If all you ever saw was the negative side of a knife, you would be more likely to demonize knives. If men abused you when you were younger, you might demonize men. It is our job to not let that conditioning taint our our minds. You live your life and I will live mine.
EDIT: @Bhogakapala Well spoken my friend.