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Giving up on TB?
SattvaPaul
South Wales, UK Veteran
Has anyone practised in the Tibetan tradition and then decided it's not for them? I'm specifically interested in people's experiences around the cultural/doctrinal differences and how appropriate Vajrayana is for Westerners. I have been struggling myself in this area, though the teachings I received were already adapted to a degree to the Western mind, and my teacher is a Westerner. I started off in Buddhism in the Zen tradition and now I'm contemplating "downgrading" my practice from TB back to Zen, which in many ways suits me better.
My question is addressed to those who have had a bit longer involvement in TB, I mean more than just visiting a centre or reading a book and deciding "it's not for me". Sort of more like Stephen Batchelor's story. Also my question is not addressed to victims of abuse by lamas etc, but if someone wants to share something from that angle, of course please do. I also hope it won't become another thread on rebirth (though for me it's one of the difficult things about TB!).
My question is addressed to those who have had a bit longer involvement in TB, I mean more than just visiting a centre or reading a book and deciding "it's not for me". Sort of more like Stephen Batchelor's story. Also my question is not addressed to victims of abuse by lamas etc, but if someone wants to share something from that angle, of course please do. I also hope it won't become another thread on rebirth (though for me it's one of the difficult things about TB!).
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Comments
I have practiced Theravadin practices, Chan, Pure Land, Zen and Vajrayana practices, and I decided that Vajrayana is the best fit for me.
The beauty of Buddhism is that whichever tradition you decide on, it is still Buddhism. You can never go wrong with any tradition provided the teachings are authentic. Some people prefer simplicity, some people like me prefer to make things complicated.
And the beauty of Vajrayana vows is that so long as you keep on the path of Buddhism, you can never break them, because all the practices in all traditions culminate in the practice of calm-abiding and insight. Just different methods to achieve them.
As for not having the will to practice, does this mean you're abandoning compassion and will convert overnight to a mean and thoughtless person? Does it mean you'll suddenly begin clinging to things when dealing with life's frustrations? I suspect not. I suspect you'll always practice kindness, some degree of mindfulness, etc. "Practice" isn't all about meditation, you know.
I'm not picking on you. We had a thread months ago on whether or not it's possible to abandon Buddhism entirely. The general consensus was, "no", one isn't going to throw away techniques that help one get through life, one isn't going to suddenly abandon kindness. So yours is a good case in point. ....I think... What do you think?
btw, several members here practice at home and don't identify with any one school. There's no exoticism in the 4 Noble Truths, the 8Fold Path, kindness, mindfulness, and non-attachment.
With Metta
The most I would get out of it might be how to better meditate and all that...but really the spiritual journey is a very personal one....
Abu was interested in 2 different meals and couldnt decide which one to eat.
He tried a little bit of both but still couldnt decide.
He began a search to find which was the best meal. He asked people's advice. Which do they prefer? Everyone had their own opinions. And Abu was left with mixed opinions.
In the end, An old man was walking along the river where Abu was thinking and thought he'd ask one last person. And so He asked the old man for his opinion.
'which meal do you think i should eat' asked Abu
The Old man looked and asked: 'Whats wrong with having one tonight then having the other tomorrow night?
Instantly, Abu became Enlghtened
It is best to learn & practise the basics of Buddhism, namely, morality, concentration & insight.
The best path is the Hinayana path. The Hinayana path means the path designed to develop yourself and free your mind from suffering & problems.
Please remember: "Hinayana is not a dirty word"
Best wishes
.
That's why, if something isn't working within some religion or tradition or sect, or where some teacher's instructions simply aren't resonating with you, aren't helping you to gain a better understanding, to make your actual view closer to correct view...it means that whatever you're being told to do, imagine, transform, "see as", etc. isn't causing your mind to change so that these things become more natural to you---become a part of your mental continuum; so that these initially contrived experiences begin to arise in your mind of their own accord.
Only when it arises naturally in your own mind naturally can you be said to have correct view. That's NOT to say that, when a teacher asks you to pretend to see something or feel something, that this is a wrong way to teach. It's fine to pretend to love other beings or feel compassion for them in a contrived way, when trying to generate such types of minds. However, when you never get beyond that stage, you need to take a good look at how you're being taught and the system that you're practicing in, as well as to check your own motivation, practice schedule, mindfulness during the day, efforts to practice morality, and you level of attachment to you job, relationships, family issues, etc. There are many causes for not progressing; some of them have nothing to do with the tradition you practice in; other definitely may be related to it; it may be the wrong type of practice for you.
I have my own issues with Tibetan Buddhism, mostly stemming from the high degree of Tibetan cultural overlay on top of the already existing Indian cultural overlay. Buddhas wear Indian garments that Brahmins wore 2500 years ago; mountain and lake spirits that I have no experience with nor faith in, to say the least, are visualized and related to.
This isn't the right place for me to discuss this further. Suffice it to say that I find the analysis of emptiness and meditations upon emptiness to be useful, and the Lam Rim teaching system to be a good one to get to renunciation and bodhicitta.
As for the "guru worship" aspect, it's not worshiping someone/something else----another person or being. It's respecting the highest and best thing that can appear in my mind; knowing that this appearing object (that's all any teacher is) can provide instruction which can help to change my mind---change how it experiences self and phenomena---makes me want to keep it close, to honor it, to make offerings to it, ask it to stay, ask it to help beings, to help me, and the like. If, for one moment, I believed that my practice is directed towards some old smiling guy with an accent who's using "superhearing" to listen to me when I practice, or something like that, I'd abandon this lineage in a flash. For those who see it that way, I can only hope that they come to understand the nature of the relationship in the way practitioners see it. Seeing a teachers as some dude...some external being, is improper. Maybe it would help if I repeat (paraphrasing but pretty close to the actual words) what my main teacher once told a small group of students immediately following a retreat we had done (it was a series of meditations on the Heart Sutra).
"If you have found anything I have said to be helpful don't thank me---thank yourself. I'm just moving my lips creating some vibrations; and whatever else happens is the result of how your own mind interprets and understands them."
The teacher is visualized as not separate from yourself, never a substantial being, always arising from emptiness, always returning to emptiness or merging with your own mind; always like an illusion, a dream, etc. The words of the teacher are the highest and best mind you can generate because it's the mind that can move you forward on your spiritual journey.
I think its worth noting that the term 'Hinayana' or 'lesser path' which is used in Vajarayana is pejorative.
This is worth reading "The Myth of Hinayana"
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha140.htm
As for attitudes to teachers, in my experience of Tibetan Buddhism, the teachers were treated like celebrity movie stars.
kind regards,
D
I was in Tibetan Buddhism for a while, and what I found disturbing was the teachings on hell, which I received in my second lesson. Being a non believer in a hell, it struck me as wrong. And then when I learned that sex was part of the meditation practice in the higher tantras, I said, NO. I left. But I left Buddhism altogether.
If I were to be in Buddhism it would be Zen, and if I were a purist I would go to Theravada. But personally what did me in was the lies being told by teachers and students in TB and the scandals you read about.
Theravada was one of a number of schools, all of which have used the Pali Canons only as their scriptural source. I think there were something like 18 schools at one time. The Vaibashikas and Sautanrikas were two others, for example. So what how would you refer to the overarching philosophy espoused therein to differentiate it from that of schools, which accept other scriptural sources in addition to the Pali Canons?
A qualified teacher they will make a clear distinction between the fact that many lamas, in terms of their own status (from their own side) are ordinary/unrealized (in the sense of being, at least, aryas (steam enterers). Students practice seeing them as enlightened beings for the purpose of doing their practice; but it goes much further than that; they try to see all sentient beings as enlightened, as extraordinary; that's a part of the imagined practice (Generation Stage practice) of Tantra. It's a way of trying to see all things and all minds as reflecting the full potential of that mind. Its totally contrived. But that's my point; seeing the teacher as a God or Celestial Buddha, etc. is also contrived; students should know that.
One lama recently stated that, as far as he know there were maybe 5 other lamas in the world who had achieved a very high level of realization. Serious students know this, and look beyond the immediate personal qualities of the lama and, instead, use an idealized version of their teacher, knowing full well what they're doing. They also follow the teachings and advices of their teacher but...to a point. If the teacher says something that's doctrinally incorrect they should always challenge them, refused to accept it, or refuse to follow them on that point and study with someone else while respecting their teacher for what useful information she/he has been able to impart to them. If the teacher tells them to do something immoral or unethical they should refuse. Using your teacher in a mental exercise is one thing; actually treating your teacher as an infallible being is another. We must rely on our ability to reason, on our own tenets, on our own understanding of morality (of of which must be based on serious study, contemplation and meditation; otherwise we may have a faulty understanding of any of the above).
If devotion to a guru helps someone build their raft, why undercut the motive? With practice, devotion to people will naturally erode.... and the hope that is inspired can be transferred over to the jewels. A culture could do worse than treating spiritual teachers as rock stars. Such as treating singers as rock stars.
Good posts, everyone.
If you don't want to discuss it in the open forum, feel free to PM me.
The words of the Refuge are as follows :
" The main Preliminary Practises
1. Taking Refuge
From now until I obtain the essence of Enlightenment
I take refuge in the Lama, the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.
(combine with prostrations and recite as much as possible)"
http://www.meritfields.com/Texte/ngondro.html
I see Buddhism as a practice that gives suggestions in its core writings, rather than trying to convince us in doctrine. When I read the 4 noble truths and the eightfold path, I interpret it as encouragement to find these things myself.
If a particular tradition creates fertile ground for the core practice, great, but I am still wondering how that is possible when belief systems are held in place.
That is the whole problem, imo. But can you really get away from belief system? You need some context in which to make sense of the teachings, and the world generally.
Personally, I consider myself a Buddhist simply because I have read and mostly understand the teachings (main ones) of the Buddha - the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, the Five Precepts, etc - and I agree with and practice all of them.
I guess I am what the Buddha would have referred to as a "layperson", as I have no desire to become a monk and so on. I do however consider myself both a teacher and a student, as I do all people. I learned to avoid the whole "this school is better than that one" spiel, as it reminded me of the same thing in Christianity, i.e. Protestants vs Catholics vs Lutherans vs .... Blah! I consider myself a Christian in that I accept and embrace what Christ taught, but I don't call myself a Christian because I don't believe in all the teachings that have come to be known as "Christian".
I view Buddhism in the same way, in that I embrace and accept what the Buddha taught, but again - I don't get into the whole Theravada vs Mahayan vs Zen vs Vajrayana... Ugh! I guess you could say I practice my own, multi-school Buddhism. And maybe I feel more comfortable saying I am a Buddhist because here in the West, people are mostly uninformed about all the different 'flavors'. Perhaps, if I were in the East, I would not do the same, because I would not want to be grilled about which school I identified with, or told that I'm not a true Buddhist because I don't align with one school. But in my mind and heart, I am a Buddhist who accepts the views of Christ, much as Thich Nhat Hahn does.
Namaste'
Kwan Kev
Accepting the views of Christ doesn't make one a Christian, as I understand it. Accepting the divinity of Christ does. Accepting the Resurrection, Son of God, all that jazz is what defines a Christian.
As for all those Indian robes and jewely robes and all that...well, as Gendun Chophel also stated (paraphrasing)
"If the Buddha had been born in Tibet we'd be visualizing him with heavy yak-skin boots and parka, and silver and turquoise jewelry, and he'd be surrounded by snow leopards and perpetually milk-giving yaks".
"Tantra aims at re-enchanting the world". What an interesting comment. I'll think about that one. I wonder if that's what some people refer to as "Tibetan magical thinking"?
In Tibet, everything that is old
Is a work of Buddha
And everything that is new
Is a work of the Devil
This is the sad tradition of our country
is from a 1946 poem and may be found in several places; here's one below:
http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/02/
Yes, I used the term "downgrading" in a tongue-in-cheek way, as TB would view itself as the pinnacle of all vehicles. I agree with you that what is most effective is the highest. The trouble is how do I know? The usual answer is "try for yourself". But that may take a long time! But then again, there are many people, like @federica I believe, who spent a couple of decades finding their tradition. I feel a kind of affinity with Zen, but I'm afraid I'd be missing out on many aspects of Buddhism if I leave TB. I'm just getting more confused..
Your point about looking beyond the personal qualities of the teacher, and in your mind, using an idealized version of him for the purpose of receiving the teachings, is interesting. That may work better for most men than some women. Not checking out the qualities of the teacher in advance, as so many in TB advise students to do, has gotten some students into trouble.
(no disrespect to anyone intended)
I would suggest go to Zen. If you feel you are missing out on something....you probably aren't doing to well with the Zen
If there is something missing for you, you will know....just as obviously you feel there is something missing now or you wouldn't be contemplating this. It's just a matter of finding the right fit for you where you are at. Over time that may change.
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” --- Mahatma Ghandi
Namaste'
Kwan Kev