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Dharma Combat! Begin
seeker242
ZenFlorida, USA Veteran
From another thread (I hope the mods don't get mad at me! It's just a little dharma combat.)
@PHennings12
Bark, Bark, woof, woof!
p.s. Ok people don't freak out. It's called Dharma Combat, it's a "zenny" thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_combat
A little good natured dharma combat never killed anyone, or perhaps it has, now wouldn't that be something!
@PHennings12
It's not that it "is" any of those things spoken.But you just said it's a block of wood. If it's not a block of wood, then why did you say it's a block of wood?
It means that your perceptions of what I have said are in the realm of intellectualization.How do you know what my perceptions are? I'm asking YOU the question!
Meaning you stick with describing your feelings of things and explaining what you know through words. What I am talking about is much deeper than what has been said.But yet you keep on talking and saying this is chan, that is chan, this is chan. If it's not the words but it's deeper than the words, then why do you keep trying to describe it with words?
A block of wood, a drop of water, a hard boiled egg, they are all the same.If they are the same, then why can you not eat a block of wood for breakfast and why can you not build a house with hard boiled eggs?
To realize this is to experience Ch'an. Ch'an itself is unable to be described in words.If that is the case, then why did you even ask people to describe it with words and why do you continue to try to describe it with words? Why do you keep opening your mouth?!
All that can be said about it is what we experience with it. Movement and stillness. That is Ch'an. Breathing and not breathing. That is Ch'an. Thinking and not thinking. That is Ch'an. Experiencing and not experiencing. That is Ch'an. Living and dying. That is Ch'an. All that can be thought of and that can not be thought of is Ch'an.That is a load of bullshit! Just more talking! Stick out your tongue so I can chop it off and feed it to a pack of wild dogs! Her doggy doggy!
Bark, Bark, woof, woof!p.s. Ok people don't freak out. It's called Dharma Combat, it's a "zenny" thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_combat
A little good natured dharma combat never killed anyone, or perhaps it has, now wouldn't that be something!
0
Comments
Is there anything that doesn't get justifyed or enhanced with a "ZEN" prefix these days?
I hope this thread can show this zafu pilot how the ego can be softened or disolved with it.
Everything is a unique aspect of everything else.
Unique aspects of the same thing.
(I'm joking obviously)
In absence of the Buddha as a contributing member, we Moderators have elected to carry out that specific task on his behalf, in any and all situations, without bias or prejudice.
Combat unarguably ends with us.
Let's all be careful out there....
I'm not saying PHennings' approach was correct, but there is a reason to talk about zen without actually being able to explain it in words. I think such avalanches require a great deal of skill to cause, however.
Also are we invited and should this even be a public spectacle?
Why am I being so serious?
Except me, that is....
I fail to see how being disrespectful could be considered "zenny" if "zenniness" is any sort of Buddhist attribute.
Gravity and an unbalanced snow pack is what causes avalanches. When one layer of snow is thicker than another. Because of gravity, the thicker layer becomes too heavy and eventually gives way and then WOOSH! Rumble, rumble, rumble.
However, in a populated area, sometimes people cause avalanches. They do it by shooting a large artillery round up into the side of the mountain. They shoot it off and it goes BOOM! And then it goes Woosh!, rumble rumble rumble.
Teachers in my school of zen call this "coming full circle". Or having a "360 degree mind". So at 180 degree mind, there is "no form, no emptiness". But if you stay at 180 degrees, you get stuck in "emptiness". One who is stuck at 180 is said to be "attached to emptiness" and not living in "the true space". At 270 degrees, they call this "freedom mind" because "form is emptiness and emptiness is form". But this is still not the "true space" either because you can not eat a block of wood for breakfast. However, when one comes "full circle" as they call it. This is the original position or 360 degree mind. A position where "form is form and emptiness is emptiness", once again. The interesting thing about 360 degree mind is that it's the same as 0 degree mind! So given that, everyone already understands chan because it's quite ordinary and not some "special thing" that one has to go out and "understand" because you already understand it. I like the circle analogy teaching. It's a good one!
Right speech means being mindful, and watching what you say.
Whether people would just start laughing is beside the point.
Offensive is still offensive.
Edit note:
On Lincoln's personal absence - I'm Lincoln.
It is not your place to say what this discussion is - or is not - about.
If you can't explain, make your exit now.
don't start contributing vacuous, meaningless pseudo-deep zen~ish-statements.
they really just make you look like an ass.....
He' being asked to be polite and respectful, and to not be maddeningly argumentative, because that's commonly called flaming/trolling, and is unacceptable forum etiquette.
As has been said many time before, this isn't a democracy, and what Lincoln says, goes.
As for the punching. I was really only referring to me punching people who can actually handle it. I was only talking about my own punches, not other people's. But yes, some people do go punching people when it would actually hurt someone else. That is not appropriate.
HHmmm.
Such an educating thread. Makes me wonder how young I must of been to be attracted to Zen.
Zen on this thread so far seems to be about vacuous statements, a lack of empathy, judgementalism of others, adversarial behaviour and the apparent belief that one can be free of karmic responsibilities.
It clearly answered my question of whether Dharma combat, hardens or softens the Ego.
This is internet chat about what Zen Buddhist teacher Charlotte Joko Beck called "Zen bullshit", and what too many people think Zen Buddhism is about..
.....and your statement about how immature you would have to be, to be attracted to Zen, based on apparently nothing more that what you are reading on internet chat.. is.... .... In a way I don't blame you for seeing it that way.. Zen more than any other stream of Buddhism has been popularized and celebrated as a mannerism. But like I say to my theravadin friends... it's a good idea to go to a Zen Sangha and engage it, and not judge Zen by "Internet Zen masters". It is a good idea to not judge Buddhism in general by the legions of the Enlightened online...
...and also, speaking as an old Theravadin myself... don't get uppity on other traditions.. it makes Theravadins look like chauvinsts. thats also an internet thing...
Well, It's not another tradition for me, its family.
It's where I've lost the hair on my knees and ankles, doing zafu flights.
But my post does sound a bit like the religeous version of, in my day you had to milk 12 cows and break a new 4 mile walk through drifting snow just to get to school.
God, I've become my parents!
It isn't just about your thread or this forum or anything like that but I see a big difference in the style of Zen that would have teachers yelling "Mu" and hitting people with sticks and the style of Zen brought to us through Thich Nhat Hanh and the like.
Just a general comment/observation. I feel it misses something but I clean my glass daily so what do I know.
Then after a while I realized that some guy putting shoes on his head and walking away, sounds pretty nonsensical, but it actually isn't! It seems like a vacuous statement, but it's actually a very profound one. The question now is, what does some ridiculous act like putting shoes on your head, actually mean? It means more than it seems. This is precisely why zen is called a "special transmission outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and speech"
Since zen is not dependent on words, and you continue to attach to the words, a true understanding of what all this apparently nonsensical/juvenile/adversarial stuff means will never arise and your true eyes will remain closed to what "zen" really means.
Long ago in China there was a famous student of Zen Master Ma Jo named Han Ong. This is Han Ong's famous questions, "What is happiness? What is sadness?" His whole life he used only this speech to teach other people. Outside, happiness appears, luck appears, sadness appears, but he is not moving. "What is true happiness? What is sadness?" Not moving. This mind is very important. Originally there is nothing. If you attach to something, then you have luck, happiness, sadness, suffering, juvenile, offensive, good, bad, -- everything appears.
If you don't attach, this is clear mind. Then there is no sadness, no happiness, no unhappiness, no juvenile, no offensive, no I, my, me, mine -- they all disappear. So if you attach to name and form, if you attach to words, then your mind is also moving. Don't attach to anything. Then your mind is enough. Then appearing, disappearing, whatever happens outside doesn't matter. This means your mind moving is no good. If you make happiness, if you make sadness, that's no good. Don't make anything; don't attach to anything; don't hold anything.
A monk asked Zen Master Ummon,"What is Buddha?" Ummon answered him, "Dried shit on a stick."
Sounds pretty dumb, but it actually isn't if you look past the words.
Take this for example Bodhidharma come to China because of an oak tree in the garden? That's nonsensical! But only if you attach to the words.
p.s.
Buddhist practice is supposed to be a joyful experience! People who are joyful have a sense of humor and they can laugh. They are happy. Why does it appear that there is not much happiness being shown here in this thread? Is it because of the thread or is it because of the one reading the thread? I think it's the latter since one's own mind makes everything one sees. How you see things is a reflection of yourself. Buddhist teacher have always known this. I do think it's quite interesting now though that modern day western psychology now happens to agree.
This is internet chat about what Zen Buddhist teacher Charlotte Joko Beck called "Zen bullshit", and what too many people think Zen Buddhism is about..
I love it!
Another version..fertilizing the ego under a teaching hat.
Zen spoiler
If something softens ego, explore it.
If something hardens ego, drop it.
Dropped..
I wasn't really trying to steer off into this tangent, but to me it seems like going out of our way to use negative terms shows attachment rather than non-attachment.
Not a big deal or anything, I just find it curious. Harsh speech is harsh speech afterall. If two monks weren't attached being clean maybe if they spat on each other they could laugh that off too. Doesn't make it skillful practice by any means though.