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Looking back on these conversations it becomes apparent that Sex is something that should be between two people who deeply cherish one and other, Without that deep cherishing it will be a meaningless action.
I have read through the entire thread now, deciding right from the get-go to stay out of it until the (near) end of active discussion....
For all those who view 'normal', healthy, sexual activity/pleasure/desire as some sort of 'danger', 'delusion', or hindrance, to their religious beliefs while not seeking a life as a Buddhist Monk or any sort of celibate clergy ... Well, coming from a very strong background with experience and education in psychology and counseling -- I have two words for you:
Competent Therapy.
So if I understand it well, according to your opinion if you want to become a monk, it's ok to have faith in the drawbacks of sex, while otherwise you need therapy? Seems like a bit of a harsh line to draw considering there are also grey areas of people who really give their live to the practice but don't or can't ordain (yet).
Now I agree there can be cases where an aversion to sex is based on things that need adressing, for example childhood experiences. Those might need therapy.
But I think people who choose to abstain from sexual activity in faith of the benefits it will give are well capable of taking care of their own. As the Buddha said; sensual activity leads to sensual craving leads to sensual activity etc. Some wish to break this chain. This can be a natural result of practicing the path. For myself, I am not interested in a sexual relationship and I'm sure I'm perfectly fine without therapy.
I think you've misunderstood, Sabre... The goal of a would-be monk or clergyman/woman is to devote their lives -completely- to a religious path... many times celibacy is one of the requirements of their particular religion. I understand that. Do I agree that Clergy should be/need be celibate? Maybe I do, maybe I don't, it really doesn't matter. It is what it is, and since I have no intention to become a monk or nun, of any faith, that is not a choice I'm faced with.
You said: "Now I agree there can be cases where an aversion to sex is based on things that need addressing, for example childhood experiences. Those might need therapy. "
I'm with you on that ... All I did was take it a little bit further and included 'aversion' to sex for other reasons as well. Some of those may include "sex addiction" which has been mentioned in this thread. Or an aversion because someone views sex as 'dangerous or detrimental' to their spiritual path - as in "If I have sex, that means I'm not using that time/effort/mindfulness on my religion...." (also mentioned?), or using their spiritual path/religion as an excuse to avoid or deny *perfectly normal* sexual desires, experiences or the sense of well-being those experiences can add to their lives.
These comments were coming from very young, (I'm assuming) physically healthy males, probably with "normal & healthy" sex drives -- not cynical, jaded, 50 yr olds with a lifetime of resentment or heartache tied up in their past intimate lives. But they could very well end up that way because of these current perceptions about sex.
And to pass off that aversion as some sort of (IMO) skewed adherence to Buddha's teachings... well... honestly, I would suggest the same thing (therapy) to a person of any religion, be it Christian, Judaism, Paganism, or whatever, if they are going use their religion as a validation for unreasonable or unhealthy aversions to (what can be and should be) a beautiful, natural, loving and compassionate intimacy with another human being..... Being locked up in aversion and negativity about sex is not generally thought of as "healthy". Claiming it [these aversions and negative perceptions] is in accordance with Buddha's teachings about sex (for monks & lay-people) isn't changing the fact they are unhealthy.
Therapy is my recommendation for anyone with these issues. They have a whole lifetime ahead of them and I don't get the sense their goal is a lifetime in a cloistered monastery.
These comments were coming from very young, (I'm assuming) physically healthy males, probably with "normal & healthy" sex drives -- not cynical, jaded, 50 yr olds with a lifetime of resentment or heartache tied up in their past intimate lives. But they could very well end up that way because of these current perceptions about sex.
I am a 39 year old male with intimacy disorder and currently working on myself to become a self reliant/well adjusted person worthy of relationship material.
OneLifeForm is a fair bit younger but could also be quite advanced for his age. I don't think we can tell a lot about a person on numbers alone.
Love is a battlefield. Some keep their heads down, some make a dash for it... many casualties... probably best not to rush.
I really didn't want to get into mentioning names. Personally, 39 is still kind of young, no? I wouldn't say you're "old". I am not basing everything (I said) on age alone, I mentioned other things that were said in this thread by more than one person.
Yes, I am a bonafide life-coach and counselor. But not a sex therapist. Also, I'm not treating anyone here (or trying to), only recommending therapy and explaining why.
Yes, I am a bonafide life-coach and counselor. But not a sex therapist.
Sorry, I don't mean to be rude or dense but I take it you deal with the more urbane domesticated being... or do your life skills extend to wildlife? Just out of curiosity, you're probably not out on safari or anything?
I don't think I could handle being on the front lines nor would I wish to get 'accustomed' to it
I don't think my balls are big enough as yet, but perhaps it's wise to seek some measure of the sheltered life and avoid exposure to the short harsh and brutal world most people grew out of. Getting a bit off topic here Whoops!
I think I misunderstood indeed, thanks for clarifying, I think I agree with you, at least to a certain degree.
Again it all depends on the intention. Certain intentions to abstain from sexuality can be healthy, others not so. We shouldn't use Buddhism as an excuse indeed, but it can be a reason for sure. Those two are different, and it's sometimes hard to see which one people come from.
Also I have to back up PP that there is no such thing as to how sex "should be".
If one does not understand, and refuses to try, why waste so much time involved in such meaningless drivel?
What I read hear are simply judgments of individuals that have posted in this thread.
You are acting as if you know what is going on in these peoples lives.. myself included.
It is obvious you have not thoroughly read the thread or made an attempt to understand its contents.
I have suggested to you that you try and understand where I personally am coming from so that you can get a clearer idea of the reasoning behind what has been typed here.
You have made no effort to try and see beyond your own self righteousness.
Sorry you both feel that way. Perhaps it would have been best not to spew your personal issues and opinions in a forum setting, if you can't tolerate anyone else's take on them.
@MaryAnne has a valid point. Some people really do choose celibacy for the wrong reasons (mostly fear based) and young guys who should be at their peak sexually choosing celibacy can be a red flag for poor intentions and aversions.
I know I worry about the intentions of young guys choosing celibacy, because out of all the guys I've seen choose it, I've seen maybe two who were coming from the right place. The rest were just running away from something. Fear of rejection, fear of intimacy, self consciousness and shame issues, pride etc.
I think it can be difficult to know a persons state of mind/feelings from online comments. That said I think I can tolerate being told to go to a therapist, even though you did not explicitly state this. Thanks! Fortunately I have an IQ slightly higher than a peanut.
(It's my EQ i'm more concerned about as you may or may not have gathered. I think we're all mind blind to an extent... especially online).
I (personally speaking) just wanted to contribute to the thread, however universally hated or indifferent the reaction. Again, thankyou, it's a valid point and contribution you make. I have, and still do not have any objections to it, and feel you went to great labour in order to justify your reasons .
I was a drug addict. The drugs were not my main problem. They were indicative of a much deeper problem.
If the drugs were my problem then I would be "recovered" now because I don't use anymore.
In the same way sex is not my problem. Attachment, aversion, ignorance.. those are the problems.
If sex were my problem and avoiding it like the plague were the solution then I might be somewhat ok
As anyone that wants to and can read, I have no problem typing about such things on an internet forum..
Things that have happened have happened.
Relating experiences with others can be of benefit.
The bold in the quote from above shows that while the topic is about sex, that I understand my problem does not lie within that.
My friend says there are steps to go about helping another being.
He says:
1. Ask, Do you need help?
2. If yes, ask, May I help you?
3. If yes, ask, How may I help you?
4. If yes, proceed with whatever help one can offer.
Most people though just try and butt in and "help" others without bothering to see if it is even welcome in the first place.
The above could be applied to an internet forum as well.
If an individual has concern for the well being of those that have posted something as was in this thread they could follow a similar format as 1-4 though it'd probably be a bit different.
Asking if an individual is in counseling already would be a good starting point.
Or how about asking if the individuals are happy with what they are doing instead of assuming that they have "issues" and need "help".
For the record here.. I am in counseling with a great therapist that I see once a week and not for sex "issues" but for difficulties that arise from the three poisons.
Also, I am happier now than I have ever been in my life.
Sex is what it is.
If my conscience would let me get away with it and if I actually felt that any type of sexual activity is meaningful pursuit then I would pursue it.
I have been upholding the 8 vows for a little while now and plan on continue upholding them for the forseeable future.
One of those vows is no sexual conduct.
I use my sexual drive to enhance my understanding of selflessness and to put all that energy down avenues that I want to travel.
I gained some insight one day in regards to the five precepts.
It was as follows..
"I harmed all when I used intoxicants."
"I harmed all when involved in sexual activity."
"I harmed all when I killed other beings."
"I harmed all when I stole."
"I harmed all when I lied or engaged in wrong speech."
That insight came under the influence of upholding the precepts. I made a vow to myself to refrain from as much harm as possible from then on.
The monastic life is desirable for me, though since I have found I can live the way I do at the moment and I understand that there are others that could probably use residency at a monastery moreso than I, to just continue on as I have been.
If I come across such an opportunity in the future than perhaps I will seek ordination.
I'm not too concerned though because ethical discipline is the water to wash away the stains of misdeeds, it is the ray of moonlight to cool the scorching heat of disturbing emotions.
There is no pillow softer than a clear conscience.
One observation on the aversion thing...the Buddhist texts aren't necessarily reflecting an extreme aversion to sex, though at first glance that may seem to definitely (and colorfully!) be the case.
What looks to us like hyperbole can actually be a literary device of many cultures--there's a Breton song, for example, where the girl says she'd rather "cast herself into the sea and drown!" than violate her chastity by eloping to America She doesn't really want to cast herself into the sea - it's a literary device to make the song memorable, like all good storytelling.
But that's not to say that the Buddhist passages on sex (and any other distraction) aren't serious about the effect of distraction; the grave tone is meant to convey that no matter how tempting distractions are, those distractions don't save our lives in the end, a pretty serious matter.
But I think one could find many passages which seem to convey extreme aversion towards other distractions, too, so that would help show that it's not a sex-focused aversion, but a distraction-focused aversion overall.
A central point of Buddhist teachings in any school (that I've seen, anyway) is to encourage the student to get serious right now, because death can come at any moment. We don't like to believe it's true, but in fact it is--so teachers, and texts, in my experience, make a point of relaying the Buddha's clear aversion to distraction.
One observation on the aversion thing...the Buddhist texts aren't necessarily reflecting an extreme aversion to sex, though at first glance that may seem to definitely (and colorfully!) be the case.
What looks to us like hyperbole can actually be a literary device of many cultures--there's a Breton song, for example, where the girl says she'd rather "cast herself into the sea and drown!" than violate her chastity by eloping to America She doesn't really want to cast herself into the sea - it's a literary device to make the song memorable, like all good storytelling.
But that's not to say that the Buddhist passages on sex (and any other distraction) aren't serious about the effect of distraction; the grave tone is meant to convey that no matter how tempting distractions are, those distractions don't save our lives in the end, a pretty serious matter.
But I think one could find many passages which seem to convey extreme aversion towards other distractions, too, so that would help show that it's not a sex-focused aversion, but a distraction-focused aversion overall.
A central point of Buddhist teachings in any school (that I've seen, anyway) is to encourage the student to get serious right now, because death can come at any moment. We don't like to believe it's true, but in fact it is--so teachers, and texts, in my experience, make a point of relaying the Buddha's clear aversion to distraction.
I really didn't want to go this far, but because you keep implying *I* am the one with a reading and comprehension problem, and the one straying off the topic (which is Sex, by the way), I'm going to cut n paste more than a few actual sentences or phrases from YOUR previous posts in this thread-- and they are all about your views of sex:
• Whenever I have had sex in the past I would get really spun out in all kinds of ways.
• I find sex to be an extreme hindrance and in no way do I view it as a skillful activity.
• When engaging in such activities I seem to not be interested at all in my spiritual practice and will willingly push it to the side to continue engaging in said activities.
• Reality points out that nobody is attractive.. can't find it anywhere.
• I have a healthy fear of what I have found myself to be capable of.
• For myself, I proceeded directly to the hell realms and my last run in with hell was by far the worst I have ever experienced in the original posts regard.
• Sexuality does not contribute to equanimity for me.
• I see sexual activity more as like poison ivy/oak/sumac. Once you itch it spreads and itching continues and continues and is never really satisfied and the rash gets worse and worse.
• My revulsion is based solely on personal experience.. some say trial and error.. I say error and error.. repeatedly heheheheheheh.
I see no merit in sexual activity though and from logical point of view it makes most sense for me to renounce it.
• I have never felt it virtuous to engage in sexual activities of any kind nor did I find my usage of drugs to ever be virtuous.
• It was the most hideous hellish experience I've ever had and yes of course the main problems that led me to such behavior were deeper than a superficial thing like sex but the sex itself was ultimately what really bound me to that situation.
• I harmed EVERYBODY. Like a tornado unable to see anything as I spun through a cycle of destruction.
*************************
All of the above come from your posts. (All Italics are mine)
Why do you think I didn't read the thread correctly or can't understand things you said? Don't you see where someone/anyone might see a few 'red flags' with these kinds of sweeping negative statements ? Especially from someone so young?
And it doesn't really matter, now- at this point- after I've already made my comments, to add a whole other 'shadow conversation' to the mix.
Maybe it is you who doesn't want to really "understand" those things you originally said ...... ?
Ok, I'll shut up now. Much to your relief, I'm sure.
The connection between sex and death is an interesting one though. Isn't it true that people are often hornier and want to 'partner up' during dark times?
When faced with an existential crisis we need more babies, and partnering up, even temporarily, is a great stress reliever when the world is crumbling.
After all, the opposite is usually more likely: that we may not die tomorrow! the likelihood is we come home from work pissed off and wish we had a good meal, a nice oily rub down and a snuggle!
OR if in the early 20th century a nice snuggle then off to war.
The connection between sex and death is an interesting one though. Isn't it true that people are often hornier and want to 'partner up' during dark times?
When faced with an existential crisis we need more babies, and partnering up, even temporarily, is a great stress reliever when the world is crumbling.
After all, the opposite is usually more likely: that we may not die tomorrow! the likelihood is we come home from work pissed off and wish we had a good meal, a nice oily rub down and a snuggle!
OR if in the early 20th century a nice snuggle then off to war.
I don't think people are hornier during dark times, but lonelier and fearful, grasping at human existence in every way possible.
I feel similarly to someone above who mentioned that the attachment was not so much about attachment to sex, but attachment to the person. As a woman I find this particularly true. It's not that there's no physical component, but for me, the personality attachments trump them all for sheer power.
Maybe it's worth suggesting that Buddhist teachings on sex often aren't about what sex is, but what it isn't: practice. Sex and relationships are powerful, as distractions from practice go, so the topic might be treated with stronger language than some other distractions.
After thinking about this for much of the time I was away from the computer, "OneLife", I have come to the conclusion that I owe you an apology.
Not because what I said was said with anything other than a genuine compulsion to help, and from a perspective of concern.... but because (as you pointed out) you did not ask for my help - or anyone's help. I was presumptuous. Next time I will try to limit my comments strictly to the Buddhist aspects of the topic at hand.
So, again, I apologize - for offering help where none was expected, or asked for; or as you put it "butting in".
After thinking about this for much of the time I was away from the computer, "OneLife", I have come to the conclusion that I owe you an apology.
Not because what I said was said with anything other than a genuine compulsion to help, and from a perspective of concern.... but because (as you pointed out) you did not ask for my help - or anyone's help. I was presumptuous. Next time I will try to limit my comments strictly to the Buddhist aspects of the topic at hand.
So, again, I apologize - for offering help where none was expected, or asked for; or as you put it "butting in".
And the same thoughts to you, "Owner.."
Peace.
M*
Apology accepted MaryAnne, thank you.
I am sorry for being so defensive in this thread and in the others.
Sometimes I easily get carried away with trying to prove my "point" and my language reflects an extreme lack of forethought.
Also while away from the computer it seemed as I was contemplating that I forgot what it was exactly that I was arguing or trying to prove.
I do appreciate your concern and contribution to the thread though as what you brought up is a valid point, I just took it personally as if you were trying to single me out/being judgmental.
As the Dalai Lama has said, "I am sometimes asked whether this vow of celibacy is really desirable and indeed whether it is really possible. Suffice to say that its practice is not simply a matter of suppressing sexual desires. On the contrary, it is necessary to fully accept the existence of these desires and transcend them by power of reasoning.... Thus as Nagarjuna said, "When you have an itch, you scratch. But not to itch at all is better than any amount of scratching."
Maybe it's worth suggesting that Buddhist teachings on sex often aren't about what sex is, but what it isn't: practice. Sex and relationships are powerful, as distractions from practice go, so the topic might be treated with stronger language than some other distractions.
Thank you for this ^
His Holiness has also said that sexual attachment is the strongest form of attachment as it utilizes all of the senses.
As in the first page of this thread I had quoted a couple of words Shakyamuni said about sex.. about it being better for a man to stick his member into the mouth of a viper than enter a woman etc. etc.
Very strong language. He was not speaking in that way for no reason.
I tend to exaggerate things when I talk or type about different topics but all of the statements I have made in regards to sex in this thread were not exaggerations at all. My experiences have been what I've posted here.
There is space between everything and in being abstinent and trying to channel that energy elsewhere it is easy to see and work with.
The desires come and they fall away just as fast.
Using that drive as a tool for enhancing my understanding of certain teachings has been of immense benefit.
I'm just glad you're at peace and not upset x I also accept some responsibility for being a nuisance (as my grandmother would say before she took off her slipper to wallop me).
It's good that we managed to sort this out without it turning into the ok corale. We wouldn't want to disturb the sheriff. I can hear her spurs clinking as we speak.
kisses x x ... (I just don't know when to sit down and shut up) ... on with the thread..
That's a nice quote, but I can tell you from my experience that you shouldn't have too high expectancies. The Buddha said sexual desire is the strongest desire there is. That makes it very hard to work with. It's also a reason why many monks disrobe. So really don't underestimate it. It may take years really to get anywhere. And it won't go in one straight path with only successes.
So if you didn't already, you have to come to terms with your sensual desires first. To work with sexual desire is also to embrace it. That doesn't mean you should act on it, but you should accept it as it is there. Only than can you really work on it, which is really quite a challenge. It won't work straight away.
Respect it like a dangerous snake, one you should really treat skillfully and gently. You don't get angry at snakes, you don't poke them with a stick. You also just assume they are sleeping or dead. You are always mindful for their movements. And when they try to strike, you avoid them skillfully, not by attacking them back. People who really are good with snakes can hold them without getting bit. Likewise, if sensual craving arises, one who is skillful can see it from a distance as if looking at a boat sailing by; it doesn't affect them very much.
Me myself I notice I'm slowly but surely taking away little chunks of sexual desire over the last years, now to a point I don't feel like a sexual relationship, but I still know the desire is there and if I don't keep a healthy relationship to it, it could get me on other levels, like impact my happiness for example.
Some of the people who commented on this thread see the dangerous side of working on sensual desire, and that's probably where some replies came from. That's totally understandable. But in my experience it is also possible to do it skillfully. Although you really need to know what you are doing and know yourself and your mind. You also need to be skillful in removing negative emotions that might cloud your perception of sensuality. Therefore it only really works if you put forth the entire Buddhist path to support this effort. An effort that I by the way very much respect. But I just wanted to warn you a bit. Don't think just because you don't want sensual desire, it'll go away.
You're really going to want to practice the path as much as you can, have your virtue solid, have meditation going as good as you can, if you don't already do. Learn to know how to handle emotions on a deep level or else it will be extremely hard. It isn't going to be easy anyway. If you don't have a solid basis, you'll be trying to train a wild horse to walk graciously... it's better to tame the horse first before attempting such things.
If you make sensual craving your main focus, you may loose sight of things that are more basic and need you attention more. And to meet somebody who has mastered their emotions to a certain degree is already quite rare. So once again, don't expect too much. You can't become a Buddha in a day.
If you ever want to discuss something in private, feel free to send a message.
Comments
Yes, mindfulness is always useful.
Now I agree there can be cases where an aversion to sex is based on things that need adressing, for example childhood experiences. Those might need therapy.
But I think people who choose to abstain from sexual activity in faith of the benefits it will give are well capable of taking care of their own. As the Buddha said; sensual activity leads to sensual craving leads to sensual activity etc. Some wish to break this chain. This can be a natural result of practicing the path. For myself, I am not interested in a sexual relationship and I'm sure I'm perfectly fine without therapy.
The goal of a would-be monk or clergyman/woman is to devote their lives -completely- to a religious path... many times celibacy is one of the requirements of their particular religion. I understand that.
Do I agree that Clergy should be/need be celibate? Maybe I do, maybe I don't, it really doesn't matter. It is what it is, and since I have no intention to become a monk or nun, of any faith, that is not a choice I'm faced with.
You said: "Now I agree there can be cases where an aversion to sex is based on things that need addressing, for example childhood experiences. Those might need therapy. "
I'm with you on that ...
All I did was take it a little bit further and included 'aversion' to sex for other reasons as well. Some of those may include "sex addiction" which has been mentioned in this thread. Or an aversion because someone views sex as 'dangerous or detrimental' to their spiritual path - as in "If I have sex, that means I'm not using that time/effort/mindfulness on my religion...." (also mentioned?), or using their spiritual path/religion as an excuse to avoid or deny *perfectly normal* sexual desires, experiences or the sense of well-being those experiences can add to their lives.
These comments were coming from very young, (I'm assuming) physically healthy males, probably with "normal & healthy" sex drives -- not cynical, jaded, 50 yr olds with a lifetime of resentment or heartache tied up in their past intimate lives.
But they could very well end up that way because of these current perceptions about sex.
And to pass off that aversion as some sort of (IMO) skewed adherence to Buddha's teachings... well... honestly, I would suggest the same thing (therapy) to a person of any religion, be it Christian, Judaism, Paganism, or whatever, if they are going use their religion as a validation for unreasonable or unhealthy aversions to (what can be and should be) a beautiful, natural, loving and compassionate intimacy with another human being.....
Being locked up in aversion and negativity about sex is not generally thought of as "healthy". Claiming it [these aversions and negative perceptions] is in accordance with Buddha's teachings about sex (for monks & lay-people) isn't changing the fact they are unhealthy.
Therapy is my recommendation for anyone with these issues. They have a whole lifetime ahead of them and I don't get the sense their goal is a lifetime in a cloistered monastery.
OneLifeForm is a fair bit younger but could also be quite advanced for his age. I don't think we can tell a lot about a person on numbers alone.
Love is a battlefield. Some keep their heads down, some make a dash for it... many casualties... probably best not to rush.
Are you a bonafide sex counsellor MaryAnne?
I am not basing everything (I said) on age alone, I mentioned other things that were said in this thread by more than one person.
Yes, I am a bonafide life-coach and counselor. But not a sex therapist.
Also, I'm not treating anyone here (or trying to), only recommending therapy and explaining why.
I have been accused of a rather "Pollyanna" world view sometimes....
I don't think I could handle being on the front lines nor would I wish to get 'accustomed' to it
I don't think my balls are big enough as yet, but perhaps it's wise to seek some measure of the sheltered life and avoid exposure to the short harsh and brutal world most people grew out of. Getting a bit off topic here Whoops!
Again it all depends on the intention. Certain intentions to abstain from sexuality can be healthy, others not so. We shouldn't use Buddhism as an excuse indeed, but it can be a reason for sure. Those two are different, and it's sometimes hard to see which one people come from.
Also I have to back up PP that there is no such thing as to how sex "should be".
If one does not understand, and refuses to try, why waste so much time involved in such meaningless drivel?
What I read hear are simply judgments of individuals that have posted in this thread.
You are acting as if you know what is going on in these peoples lives.. myself included.
It is obvious you have not thoroughly read the thread or made an attempt to understand its contents.
I have suggested to you that you try and understand where I personally am coming from so that you can get a clearer idea of the reasoning behind what has been typed here.
You have made no effort to try and see beyond your own self righteousness.
It is a shame.. a worthwhile debate/discussion and a furthering opening of minds could have been had here.
Sorry you both feel that way.
Perhaps it would have been best not to spew your personal issues and opinions in a forum setting, if you can't tolerate anyone else's take on them.
And so you attack..... Feel better now?
I know I worry about the intentions of young guys choosing celibacy, because out of all the guys I've seen choose it, I've seen maybe two who were coming from the right place. The rest were just running away from something. Fear of rejection, fear of intimacy, self consciousness and shame issues, pride etc.
You can choose to try it.
You can choose to ignore it.
I think it can be difficult to know a persons state of mind/feelings from online comments. That said I think I can tolerate being told to go to a therapist, even though you did not explicitly state this. Thanks! Fortunately I have an IQ slightly higher than a peanut.
(It's my EQ i'm more concerned about as you may or may not have gathered. I think we're all mind blind to an extent... especially online).
I (personally speaking) just wanted to contribute to the thread, however universally hated or indifferent the reaction. Again, thankyou, it's a valid point and contribution you make. I have, and still do not have any objections to it, and feel you went to great labour in order to justify your reasons .
with love,
kisses mwaaah! x x
Things that have happened have happened.
Relating experiences with others can be of benefit.
The bold in the quote from above shows that while the topic is about sex, that I understand my problem does not lie within that.
My friend says there are steps to go about helping another being.
He says:
1. Ask, Do you need help?
2. If yes, ask, May I help you?
3. If yes, ask, How may I help you?
4. If yes, proceed with whatever help one can offer.
Most people though just try and butt in and "help" others without bothering to see if it is even welcome in the first place.
The above could be applied to an internet forum as well.
If an individual has concern for the well being of those that have posted something as was in this thread they could follow a similar format as 1-4 though it'd probably be a bit different.
Asking if an individual is in counseling already would be a good starting point.
Or how about asking if the individuals are happy with what they are doing instead of assuming that they have "issues" and need "help".
For the record here.. I am in counseling with a great therapist that I see once a week and not for sex "issues" but for difficulties that arise from the three poisons.
Also, I am happier now than I have ever been in my life.
Sex is what it is.
If my conscience would let me get away with it and if I actually felt that any type of sexual activity is meaningful pursuit then I would pursue it.
I have been upholding the 8 vows for a little while now and plan on continue upholding them for the forseeable future.
One of those vows is no sexual conduct.
I use my sexual drive to enhance my understanding of selflessness and to put all that energy down avenues that I want to travel.
I gained some insight one day in regards to the five precepts.
It was as follows..
"I harmed all when I used intoxicants."
"I harmed all when involved in sexual activity."
"I harmed all when I killed other beings."
"I harmed all when I stole."
"I harmed all when I lied or engaged in wrong speech."
That insight came under the influence of upholding the precepts.
I made a vow to myself to refrain from as much harm as possible from then on.
The monastic life is desirable for me, though since I have found I can live the way I do at the moment and I understand that there are others that could probably use residency at a monastery moreso than I, to just continue on as I have been.
If I come across such an opportunity in the future than perhaps I will seek ordination.
I'm not too concerned though because ethical discipline is the water to wash away the stains of misdeeds, it is the ray of moonlight to cool the scorching heat of disturbing emotions.
There is no pillow softer than a clear conscience.
What looks to us like hyperbole can actually be a literary device of many cultures--there's a Breton song, for example, where the girl says she'd rather "cast herself into the sea and drown!" than violate her chastity by eloping to America
But that's not to say that the Buddhist passages on sex (and any other distraction) aren't serious about the effect of distraction; the grave tone is meant to convey that no matter how tempting distractions are, those distractions don't save our lives in the end, a pretty serious matter.
But I think one could find many passages which seem to convey extreme aversion towards other distractions, too, so that would help show that it's not a sex-focused aversion, but a distraction-focused aversion overall.
A central point of Buddhist teachings in any school (that I've seen, anyway) is to encourage the student to get serious right now, because death can come at any moment. We don't like to believe it's true, but in fact it is--so teachers, and texts, in my experience, make a point of relaying the Buddha's clear aversion to distraction.
Edit:
Comment #69
heheheehheeheh
I really didn't want to go this far, but because you keep implying *I* am the one with a reading and comprehension problem, and the one straying off the topic (which is Sex, by the way), I'm going to cut n paste more than a few actual sentences or phrases from YOUR previous posts in this thread-- and they are all about your views of sex:
• Whenever I have had sex in the past I would get really spun out in all kinds of ways.
• I find sex to be an extreme hindrance and in no way do I view it as a skillful activity.
• When engaging in such activities I seem to not be interested at all in my spiritual practice and will willingly push it to the side to continue engaging in said activities.
• Reality points out that nobody is attractive.. can't find it anywhere.
• I have a healthy fear of what I have found myself to be capable of.
• For myself, I proceeded directly to the hell realms and my last run in with hell was by far the worst I have ever experienced in the original posts regard.
• Sexuality does not contribute to equanimity for me.
• I see sexual activity more as like poison ivy/oak/sumac. Once you itch it spreads and itching continues and continues and is never really satisfied and the rash gets worse and worse.
• My revulsion is based solely on personal experience.. some say trial and error.. I say error and error.. repeatedly heheheheheheh.
I see no merit in sexual activity though and from logical point of view it makes most sense for me to renounce it.
• I have never felt it virtuous to engage in sexual activities of any kind nor did I find my usage of drugs to ever be virtuous.
• It was the most hideous hellish experience I've ever had and yes of course the main problems that led me to such behavior were deeper than a superficial thing like sex but the sex itself was ultimately what really bound me to that situation.
• I harmed EVERYBODY.
Like a tornado unable to see anything as I spun through a cycle of destruction.
*************************
All of the above come from your posts. (All Italics are mine)
Why do you think I didn't read the thread correctly or can't understand things you said? Don't you see where someone/anyone might see a few 'red flags' with these kinds of sweeping negative statements ? Especially from someone so young?
And it doesn't really matter, now- at this point- after I've already made my comments, to add a whole other 'shadow conversation' to the mix.
Maybe it is you who doesn't want to really "understand" those things you originally said ...... ?
Ok, I'll shut up now. Much to your relief, I'm sure.
When faced with an existential crisis we need more babies, and partnering up, even temporarily, is a great stress reliever when the world is crumbling.
After all, the opposite is usually more likely: that we may not die tomorrow! the likelihood is we come home from work pissed off and wish we had a good meal, a nice oily rub down and a snuggle!
OR if in the early 20th century a nice snuggle then off to war.
Wow, we sure have wasted a colossal amount of time.
Let us have the moral of the story be acceptance.
I accept that you view things the way you view them.
I accept that I view things the way that I view them.
I accpet our views on everything are not in complete agreement.
I accept that I have fallen into samsaras waters.
I accept that you have fallen into samsaras waters.
I accept that I want to be happy.
I accept that you want to be happy.
May we all have happiness and all of its causes.
May we all be free from suffering and all of its causes.
May we all never be parted from freedom's true joy.
May we all dwell in equanimity, free from attachment and aversion.
Not because what I said was said with anything other than a genuine compulsion to help, and from a perspective of concern.... but because (as you pointed out) you did not ask for my help - or anyone's help. I was presumptuous.
Next time I will try to limit my comments strictly to the Buddhist aspects of the topic at hand.
So, again, I apologize - for offering help where none was expected, or asked for; or as you put it "butting in".
And the same thoughts to you, "Owner.."
Peace.
M*
I am sorry for being so defensive in this thread and in the others.
Sometimes I easily get carried away with trying to prove my "point" and my language reflects an extreme lack of forethought.
Also while away from the computer it seemed as I was contemplating that I forgot what it was exactly that I was arguing or trying to prove.
I do appreciate your concern and contribution to the thread though as what you brought up is a valid point, I just took it personally as if you were trying to single me out/being judgmental.
As the Dalai Lama has said, "I am sometimes asked whether this vow of celibacy is really desirable and indeed whether it is really possible. Suffice to say that its practice is not simply a matter of suppressing sexual desires. On the contrary, it is necessary to fully accept the existence of these desires and transcend them by power of reasoning.... Thus as Nagarjuna said, "When you have an itch, you scratch. But not to itch at all is better than any amount of scratching."
His Holiness has also said that sexual attachment is the strongest form of attachment as it utilizes all of the senses.
As in the first page of this thread I had quoted a couple of words Shakyamuni said about sex.. about it being better for a man to stick his member into the mouth of a viper than enter a woman etc. etc.
Very strong language. He was not speaking in that way for no reason.
I tend to exaggerate things when I talk or type about different topics but all of the statements I have made in regards to sex in this thread were not exaggerations at all. My experiences have been what I've posted here.
There is space between everything and in being abstinent and trying to channel that energy elsewhere it is easy to see and work with.
The desires come and they fall away just as fast.
Using that drive as a tool for enhancing my understanding of certain teachings has been of immense benefit.
I'm just glad you're at peace and not upset x
I also accept some responsibility for being a nuisance (as my grandmother would say before she took off her slipper to wallop me).
It's good that we managed to sort this out without it turning into the ok corale. We wouldn't want to disturb the sheriff. I can hear her spurs clinking as we speak.
kisses x x
...
(I just don't know when to sit down and shut up)
...
on with the thread..
That's a nice quote, but I can tell you from my experience that you shouldn't have too high expectancies. The Buddha said sexual desire is the strongest desire there is. That makes it very hard to work with. It's also a reason why many monks disrobe. So really don't underestimate it. It may take years really to get anywhere. And it won't go in one straight path with only successes.
So if you didn't already, you have to come to terms with your sensual desires first. To work with sexual desire is also to embrace it. That doesn't mean you should act on it, but you should accept it as it is there. Only than can you really work on it, which is really quite a challenge. It won't work straight away.
Respect it like a dangerous snake, one you should really treat skillfully and gently. You don't get angry at snakes, you don't poke them with a stick. You also just assume they are sleeping or dead. You are always mindful for their movements. And when they try to strike, you avoid them skillfully, not by attacking them back. People who really are good with snakes can hold them without getting bit. Likewise, if sensual craving arises, one who is skillful can see it from a distance as if looking at a boat sailing by; it doesn't affect them very much.
Me myself I notice I'm slowly but surely taking away little chunks of sexual desire over the last years, now to a point I don't feel like a sexual relationship, but I still know the desire is there and if I don't keep a healthy relationship to it, it could get me on other levels, like impact my happiness for example.
Some of the people who commented on this thread see the dangerous side of working on sensual desire, and that's probably where some replies came from. That's totally understandable. But in my experience it is also possible to do it skillfully. Although you really need to know what you are doing and know yourself and your mind. You also need to be skillful in removing negative emotions that might cloud your perception of sensuality. Therefore it only really works if you put forth the entire Buddhist path to support this effort. An effort that I by the way very much respect. But I just wanted to warn you a bit. Don't think just because you don't want sensual desire, it'll go away.
You're really going to want to practice the path as much as you can, have your virtue solid, have meditation going as good as you can, if you don't already do. Learn to know how to handle emotions on a deep level or else it will be extremely hard. It isn't going to be easy anyway. If you don't have a solid basis, you'll be trying to train a wild horse to walk graciously... it's better to tame the horse first before attempting such things.
If you make sensual craving your main focus, you may loose sight of things that are more basic and need you attention more. And to meet somebody who has mastered their emotions to a certain degree is already quite rare. So once again, don't expect too much. You can't become a Buddha in a day.
If you ever want to discuss something in private, feel free to send a message.
With kindness,
Sabre