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What can and can't you do?
Captain_America
Explorer
Alright so I'm confused. I'm a total noob when it comes to Buddhism (well not total, I have done a bit of reading which is why I'm confused). And I've been having a hard time clarifying what is and isn't allowed.
I was reading a thread on here where people had mentioned that they smoked/drank for example. So I think to myself, "wait a minute, is that even allowed?" so I look into the precepts and drugs/alcohol and basically fun (music, dancing etc) are prohibited.
What exactly am I not understanding here? Are those precepts only for the uber strict to follow? Only for a certain branch of Buddhism? Where's the side of Buddhism where this is allowed, because I think that's where I want to go :P
And if different branches/schools of Buddhism can differ so greatly, does that make any one more correct than the other?
Yeah multiple questions I know, but I wanted to get as much in as I could in one post lol. One more thing, what exactly is prohibited by like all schools? Killing? Because I'm totally bad at that (not because I kill people, but insects....lots of them...)
Thanks
I was reading a thread on here where people had mentioned that they smoked/drank for example. So I think to myself, "wait a minute, is that even allowed?" so I look into the precepts and drugs/alcohol and basically fun (music, dancing etc) are prohibited.
What exactly am I not understanding here? Are those precepts only for the uber strict to follow? Only for a certain branch of Buddhism? Where's the side of Buddhism where this is allowed, because I think that's where I want to go :P
And if different branches/schools of Buddhism can differ so greatly, does that make any one more correct than the other?
Yeah multiple questions I know, but I wanted to get as much in as I could in one post lol. One more thing, what exactly is prohibited by like all schools? Killing? Because I'm totally bad at that (not because I kill people, but insects....lots of them...)
Thanks
0
Comments
The fifth precept is to abstain from intoxicants (that cause mental heedlessness), but not everyone can or will follow that. Smoking isn't an intoxicant, though alcohol and other drugs are.
I recommend http://www.BuddhaNet.net for more information on Buddhism. It has a Basic Buddhism Guide as well as Online Study Guide that should be most helpful.
If you get drunk and end up driving and kill someone, do you think a lifetime of holding the door for people could ever make up for it? That's just an example of course, but the point is that the precept is there for a reason. Follow it or don't follow it, but it's only your choice and you're the only one responsible for your actions.
But what I really meant was say the worst thing that happens on most nights is you get drunk/high and just have a good (non harmful to anyone in any way) time. I mean of course you do some harm to your body from these actions but I think you know what I mean.
If you're not going to follow the fifth precept, at least be moderate in your consumption and be careful. Be constantly on guard about possibly causing harm to others. No one can force you to follow this precept or any, but I ask that you keep the safety of others in mind.
In shorth this is what you're going to hear.
The first 5 precepts are for us (lay Buddhists).
The last 5 are for those in monastic life.
The first 5 precepts are more guidelines than they are rules.
Some of us follow the precepts more literally than others.
I for example don't harm life, so I don't eat meat or harm bugs. Others feel killing bugs is ok but not snakes, some hate snakes and believe it's ok.
Some forsake the 5th precept in order to continue drinking. Some limit their drinking to avoid heedlessness, others don't drink or partake in drugs at all.
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” The Buddha
Quote from http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/2167493.Siddh_rtha_Gautama
I understand that bad things happen, and I know that I could always be the one to do the harming, the killing, the maiming the whatever negative action. I thank you for stating it anyway as you can't possibly be aware of what I was thinking of/aware of. I merely wanted to know how "wrong" it was to partake in actions that violate the fifth precept (for example) without any other variables such as the accidental killing or harming of another individual.
I hope I'm not coming across in a bad way, I absolutely mean well.
There are known hindrances along the way that, if we avoid them, we will have a better chance of staying on the path. Being alert is helpful and being intoxicated reduces our ability to be alert.
As Cloud mentioned above, there could be serious consequences as a result of being out of control but you will not be punished simply for being intoxicated. You may, however, set yourself back in your spiritual quest if your mind is not clear.
Personally, as a musician, I used to use marijuana to help clear my mind of distractions prior to a musical performance. Now I meditate and do a bit of Yoga before a show and I find it to be a much better way to quiet the mind and I can focus more clearly on the music than I did when I was stoned.
I did not know that the first five precepts were more guidelines than rules. I thought that by violating them you were committing bad acts and therefore accruing negative karma.
Thanks for clearing things up.
edit: also, I hope you don't think I'm an alcoholic or a drug addict of some sort. I've yet to have more than two beers in a sitting and have not been high very many times. I was just using this precept as an example. I had also been curious about say killing insects, but if I now understand correctly, killing is simply a guideline? (not that I plan on killing much more than an insect lol)
The precepts have two purposes, the first of which is to prevent you from doing harm (accruing negative karma), the second of which is to cultivate a blameless mind that is capable of getting the most of a meditative practice.
It's a question simply, of asking yourself, "How conducive to me following a Buddhist path, is this?"
Simply because you might protest you would prefer to carry on doing something, even though indications are that it's not skilful or appropriate - does your thinking you'd still like to carry on - make it right?
When talking about the precept of not drinking alcohol, people often only look at that precept, the consequences etc. But there is another more important thing involved: The second noble truth; the source of suffering is craving. Craving for sense pleasures, thus for beer, sigarettes, or what have you - is included in this craving that leads to suffering. So leaving aside whether or not you accumulate negative karma by drinking, one thing is for sure, you aren't gathering good karma.
You need to take them in the same context as the 4 Noble truths and the Eightfold path.
Precepts are there for guidance, sure, but you should consider them whilst bearing in mind the 4 and the 8.
Sabre: You do indeed make a good point. Craving is a MASSIVE issue for me. Not in terms of alcohol & drugs, but in life in general, as it may be for many. Being new to this as I am, I have yet to learn how to manage these things rather than trying to satisfy them all the time. Follow up question: is it bad to not necessarily "crave" but to desire things? Like the desire to do well in something, the desire to maybe go somewhere, the desire to do something as miscellaneous as playing a board game/video game/etc?
Federica: Well I actually wasn't sure of the context to take the Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path in. Those are indisputable things though I'm guessing?
They were the topics of the very first sermon the Buddha gave at Deer Park, and have always been the underpinning factors of a Buddhist's first foray into Buddhism....
Learn more, here about the 4 Noble truths and here, regarding the 8Fold path, with a précis on the 4 Noble truths also....
But the path and the precepts are naturally a bit uncomfortable in the beginning. That's because it goes against our habits. People think, well I like drinking beer, I don't see the harm in it, and it would be a problem for me to stop it - but that's their habitual tendency speaking. The path is about changing or remove these tendencies. So to listen to them is like holding onto the shore while you want to swim across a river - you aren't really getting anywhere.
Of course the moment of letting go of the shore is a bit scary, but to get across, we have to. There will be a better and more beautiful shore at the other side.
For example, refrain from putting your hand on a hot stove. This is an instruction to help prevent you from getting burned, there's no Buddha or anyone else there to smack you upside the head if you do like is kind of implied if it were a rule. The instruction is up to you whether to follow or not, the only consequence being burning your hand or not, totally up to you.
So with that said, what school/branch of Buddhism do those who believe this way follow?
Doing what you know to be right is essential.
So it is impossible for a Buddha to lie, steal, intentionally hurt a living being, and he wouldn't drink either. If we take that as an example, we can become more enlightened ourselves.
p.s. to never hurt a living being... I'd turn that into a positive and say that it's possible for all one's actions to be for ending suffering in living beings. In fact we're already doing exactly that, though it's a terrible fact to come to terms with, even if it is perfection.
Yes, I agree, I was talking about the 5 precepts, I could have clarified. Although, I don't think a Buddha would be very interested in dancing. Here is a list of things impossible for a Buddha (or arahant if you want) according to the suttas:
The guys who sat in zazen for 20 years and had grass growing in the folds of their robes weren't the real Buddhas.
A lot of things are going to happen that won't be as neat as that list.
My wife has pointed out to me that I have an attachment to the music. At first, this was difficult for me to accept because music can bring so much joy but as I learn more about myself and the nature of suffering, I have some idea why the Buddha included music and dancing in the precepts. It seems to me that he was just bringing our attention to some of the effects of focusing on this type of activity.
I am attached to music and, at times, it can certainly be a hindrance but that does not stop me from performing. The realization, however, helps me keep it in perspective, be more accepting and live a more balanced life.
Well, then all I have to say is Thank Goodness I don't want to be a monk!
Seriously, though.... do you really really believe that a "good / devout / true Buddhist" (choose your own descriptive word) needs to avoid the beauty of music, the beauty of intimacy and companionship, the beauty of art, the beauty of LIFE in so many forms? Did the Buddha mean for everyone, everywhere, to become monks, or even "monk-like" in Buddhist devotion? I can't imagine that.
There is no balance if one eradicates all acknowledgment of Beauty in the world....
Now, an unproductive attachment to beauty I can understand, but so often I read here - in this forum- comments which strongly imply nothing pleasurable, nothing beautiful is to be sought, acknowledged or enjoyed for simply what it is... beautiful.
It is the unproductive attachment that is the issue - the solution being the ability to discern such.
But seriously, nope, I don't think the Buddha intended everybody to become ordained. If nobody would have followed his teachings, that would also have been fine. But luckily people picked it up, both ordained and lay people. I think we can practice a lot without being monks or nuns. But the Buddha wasn't the biggest fan of 'the beauties of life', because what's more beautiful is the beauty of nirvana, because for one thing, it is the only permanent happiness. Surely the Buddha wouldn't have made up the monastic precepts against a lot of sensual stuff if those were productive in finding that happiness. Doesn't mean lay people are required to live by those standards, though.
But the beauty of a lot of things you mention are very dependent on perception. For example: one style of music one likes, another finds horrible. Some people don't really like music at all. Myself -once been a musician (not pro but quite active anyway)- I've more and more come to attune to silence and rarely listen music anymore. Silence is more beautiful to me now and music often sounds like a noise.
So what's the meaning of 'beauty' then if it is so susceptible to change? ... One could wonder. Over the years of practice I've come more and more to the realization that the less there is, the more beauty there is. (and I will probably become a monk soon-ish, thank goodness I want to
Don't bother with trying to figure out which school you want right now.
All of the schools focus on the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path. Just concentrate on that for now.
When I first started 2 years ago I read everything I could get my hands on. Man did I get confused. This isn't like class where you only have 1 semester to figure it out before the exam. After all of my reading and studying I finally gave it up. I went back to the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path and started over. I sat down and I shut up.
Fit the precepts in when and where you can.
It's more about your intention than it is about your performance.
And then at what point do I begin to think about schools? And then at what point would I be able to consider myself a Buddhist?
May I suggest you listen to this three part talk on Dukkha (the first Noble Truth)
Dukkha part1
Dukkha part2
Dukkha part3
I think you are essentially a Buddhist when you try and incorporate living *your* life by the precepts & 8FP- applying whatever other teachings you are exposed to in a way that feels natural and improves your life.
Do these things for a couple of years, and you will get your Buddhism membership card in the mail! ;-)
But of course, that not as bad a killing someone drunk driving or something like that but still not without negative consequences.
Karma doesn't have to be mystical, it's oftentimes plainly obvious when you sit down and think about it.
I didn't really get this stuff until my daugther was born. I realized I had to set a good example for her, and had to be someone she could look up to. That's when I started taking the precepts seriously.
It's a set of voluntary vows you take. You do the best you can, and when you screw up, you sit down, learn from it and move on.
It's not about you. It's about how you treat other, and this was the Buddha's recommendation for treating others better, and getting some self-respect and dignity in the process.
This clip from Monty Python also came to mind ... blessed are the cheesmakers!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=-xLUEMj6cwA&feature=endscreen
cuddle or confuse ?? lol x
Don't answer that, this is a family show......;)