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The people living in the Middle East also do not even have an idea of what democracy really is, and what the right to free speech includes. They have never learned or understood that free speech means being able to say things that upset other people and not being held accountable for it. They lump everyone in the Western world together the same way American's lump Muslims together as extremist, scary people. I wish they were not doing what they were, but they've never had the ability to simply peacefully protest and speak out against things they don't like. They are never taught how to do that because of the lack of free speech. When they don't have the ability to communicate effectively they act out, just like a child does when they act out because their communication skills are poor. Of course I do not condone their actions but it's easier to understand them when it basically comes down to "they don't know any better."
Yes vinlyn, and it certainly can appear that way. I think another way of looking at how these things come about is expecting others to have the same views as us and then allowing our distress when they don't to be acted out to such an extent.
Yeesh I haven't seen the news in a while, I turn it on today and there's all kinds of anti-America rioting going on in several countries. I hadn't realized everyone was going nuts!
An observation that a friend from Taiwan made was very interesting to me. She commented that it surprised her greatly to see, when she visited Australia and saw the media here, that so many people from western countries do not understand how they offend others when it was very obvious to her.
I see it as very obviously offensive and can't condone it at all, but taking to the streets and burning American flags, and especially killing people... that's very obviously overkill, over-sensitivity to what some dumb Americans made that shouldn't be that important. If they saw everything every dumb American ever made depicting Islam or Mohammed in a negative way, there probably would be war over it. Some people need to get out into "the world" more, this is ridiculous. It's not America depicting things this way, it's just free American citizens expressing their opinions (albeit in a very offensive way). Maybe it is because they don't have freedom of speech there, they don't think opinions should be heard that go against religious beliefs in any way, and so don't understand that in America even the religions practiced by Americans are depicted irreverently, and we laugh at each other but don't kill each other over it.
Yes, Cloud, you're right. While living in Thailand -- a relatively free country -- I saw evidence all the time that Thais had no real concept of freedom and democracy. They were nice words to aspire to, but there was just a lack of real understanding.
Right now I'm reading a biography about the King Of Thailand. It's very detailed, and in my view a very balanced review of the King's life. At times it is very complimentary of the King, at other times rather critical. But it is clearly not a book that's designed to be a hatchet job or a love letter. Thais should read it and learn the real story of their own modern history. But they can't. The book is banned. And the author would be jailed for up to 15 years if he returned to Thailand. If I had owned the book while living there, I could have even been jailed. And yet, many Thais think they are the free-est country in the world.
@vinlyn, Part of growing up is accepting that other people see things differently. We can accept that the Middle East sees things differently and be okay with it (live and let live, at least)... but they can't accept that we see things differently without negative reaction, apparently. To do so would require some more growing up, which would seem to mean going beyond the strict tenets of their religious/political system. Will that ever happen? Hard to say. I think the chances of there being more violence are higher.
The USA is everything that's wrong with the world to them. And to us, their world is everything that's wrong with religion running people's lives. I'm sorry I'm fuming a little bit, it's sad and annoying that things are like this, and I didn't know about all this violence until a little while ago.
^^ Agreed. And you are right on target about the "growing up" aspect. The Thais are childish about their King and history...and the palace makes sure they stay that way.
BTW, in case anyone is wondering...yes, I know there is no rioting in Thailand about this issue, and I realize it is not a Muslim country...I'm just making a point with something I experienced as an example.
I see it as very obviously offensive and can't condone it at all, but taking to the streets and burning American flags, and especially killing people... that's very obviously overkill, over-sensitivity to what some dumb Americans made that shouldn't be that important. If they saw everything every dumb American ever made depicting Islam or Mohammed in a negative way, there probably would be war over it. Some people need to get out into "the world" more, this is ridiculous. It's not America depicting things this way, it's just free American citizens expressing their opinions (albeit in a very offensive way). Maybe it is because they don't have freedom of speech there, they don't think opinions should be heard that go against religious beliefs in any way, and so don't understand that in America even the religions practiced by Americans are depicted irreverently, and we laugh at each other but don't kill each other over it.
My post was not directed at your comment - rather your comment led me to remember my friend's surprise at Australian media reports ( from USA ), which reflected a lack of understanding.
As has already been pointed out in this discussion, freedom of speech does involve respect and responsibility, although this aspect is not focused on as much in the media.
Oh I didn't think it was. I was just commenting on the fact that it's clearly offensive to me (I'm not sure how any American can not see it's offensive), but the reaction is clearly overkill. Your post about the Australian just inspired me.
@tmottes, You mean personally? Because I wasn't personally offended by this video, but I can recognize its offensiveness to a particular religion's followers. In other words, I wasn't "offended by it" but rather "found it offensive". The fact that people made this to cause anger/upset to Muslims... now that does offend me. Why are we making things worse? Are we really that stupid and insensitive? Do we really hate them that much? We're certainly giving them (more) reason to hate us.
Just such a frustrating situation. I'm not sure how the world is going to move past this to where we can get along. Can anyone think of what would actually cause this divide, this wall, to come down and unite us? There seems to be such a deep rift between us right now, seemingly irreconcilable differences in perspective and way of life.
@Cloud yeah, I meant personally. I mean I can see how somebody could be offended by anything really, but I can't help but think that to take such strong offense is a bit of over-compensation for an insecurity about the belief. If we truly know or believe something, it doesn't matter what somebody else has to say about it.
This is why its never good to respond in kind to violence or insults. It just produces more of the same. It is situations like that that really re-enforce my belief in compassion as the most skillful tool to move forward: even if it doesn't happen in my lifetime.
For me, it has to come back to knowing of another's intolerance as being a good cause and reason to not to provoke the intolerance - of course, we can and do, we have free speech etc.
@andyrobyn, That's why I think the people who made the video are genuine asses. It's like they're trying to bring hellfire down on all of us Americans. I'm sure there are many Muslims who feel the same way about extremists, as if they're trying to bring hellfire down upon all of them from America!
Yes ... and in the same way killing a US ambassador is provactive to known US intolerances.
As has been said, the western media plays on the emotions which lead to intolerance - for example from the Telegraph article Caz linked ... " 50 US marines despatched to Libya to help hunt down the killers of American ambassador Chris Stevens as suspicions grew that the attack was planned and carefully orchestrated. "
We must also remember, that the old dicatator's have been ousted; some by the U.S. military, and others by their own citizens. After year's of censorship, and no freedoms, the people are now just toddling and learning of what freedom is. The writer who made this film, knew what it would do; and he still willingly went onward with the project.
I have 5 registered screenplay's, and won several awards; from experiance, one of the things we research is all of what I will write. This individual new this was the outcome. Especially with the history of what happens when Islam is percieved to be insulted; Rushdee, as a prime example.
As humans we have much to learn towards turning our nature from the paranoid insecure creatures we are, because as this fire widens, we need to be present to at least slow it down.
I think several of you are overstating the media's role in this...as Americans have a tendency to constantly do nowadays.
The makers of the film are not media (at least in the normal sense). You Tube is not media (at least in the normal sense).
The average protestor in Libya or Egypt are not listening to American media.
My comments about media are not in relation to the influence on protestors in particular - more the influence on the understanding and growth in intolerance rather than promoting a spirit toward tolerance ( in whichever country you would like to nominate, I suggest ) ... this is not overstated.
Film and You Tube are generally considered media, are they not?
Something that I have noticed about the hindrance of anger is that it can fester and wait for an opportunity to come out.
For example, some people who would not kill anyone else will express their pent up anger toward someone who is accused of committing a heinous crime and may even call for their execution. This gives them an outlet or an excuse to be angry - at least in their own minds.
I believe this is what is happening now in the Middle East.
There is a lot of pent up anger towards America and what some believe America stands for.
Both sides are calling each other "evil" when, in fact, there is no evil - only ignorance.
It only takes a small trigger to bring this anger to the surface and the trigger, although it appears insignificant to those not swept up in the anger, gets used as the excuse for the actions used to express it.
Something that I have noticed about the hindrance of anger is that it can fester and wait for an opportunity to come out.
For example, some people who would not kill anyone else will express their pent up anger toward someone who is accused of committing a heinous crime and may even call for their execution. This gives them an outlet or an excuse to be angry - at least in their own minds.
I believe this is what is happening now in the Middle East.
There is a lot of pent up anger towards America and what some believe America stands for.
Both sides are calling each other "evil" when, in fact, there is no evil - only ignorance.
It only takes a small trigger to bring this anger to the surface and the trigger, although it appears insignificant to those not swept up in the anger, gets used as the excuse for the actions used to express it.
Good observation. I would add It doesn't even have to be anger toward America either, just anger in general. I have anger issues and have been watching my behaviour in an attempt to let it go. I have found that the anger can often be about something else entirely; however, like you said, "a small trigger" (even something completely unrelated) can set it off.
With some areas of the US, anything that isn't Christian is an extreme view. When people who don't know me really well find out there is a Buddhist group that exists here, their words and expressions are definitely one of "whoa, really? What are they doing HERE?" and the funny thing is many of the people in our Sangha are well known people in the community who talk to these more ignorant people on a daily basis and don't have a clue, lol. I wouldn't say it's considered an extreme view, but it's definitely a novelty to have a different religion/belief set in the area, and it's a source of curiosity and gossip for some people in our town.
I spent the better part of a year studying extremist Islam, particularly in Iran, but also in the wider middle east.
Should this video have been made? As much as I believe in free speech, I would say no. It wasn't made to educate or to entertain, it was made solely to be inflammatory. You know how "with great power comes great responsibility"? Free speech is an enormous power and I think a lot of people ignore the responsibility part.
But I don't think the video shouldn't have been made to avoid violence or to walk on eggshells, it shouldn't have been made because it serves no genuine purpose. I think we should be able to say whatever we like about extremists, about other nations, other religions, but the difference is in the purpose of doing so.
Saying the video shouldn't have been made because then the violence wouldn't have happened is false. Extremists don't work that way. The violence wasn't in retaliation to the video, the video was just an excuse for violence that would have happened anyway.
Because that is the Islamist extremist manifesto - create war and violence. Do everything to scare people into converting to Islam, and if they don't convert, kill them. Certain sects of Islam believe that by creating world war they will incite the return of the "12th Imam" - sort of like the Islamic version of the second coming of Christ - who will rise again and "cleanse" the world. Unlike the second coming of Christ (because he's just going to turn up whenever he feels like it and we just wait around) they believe that they can hasten his coming.
The extremists want war and violence. That's why we see footage of them chanting "Death to Israel" and "death to America".
Things like this video... Saying its the cause of the violence is false, it's just an excuse for it. They already had violent intentions, but this way they can make it look like we're somehow at fault.
Everything the extremists believe, it's all in the Qur'an and in the Hadiths. People say that "well, the Bible has some pretty nasty shit in it too" and that's very true, but in the Qur'an it's specifically said that all written must be taken as true (not as parable) and must never be changed. Many churches now don't even teach the Old Testament, preachers describe the stories as parables (even the ones not stated as parable) but that can't happen in Islam.
Not to say that it doesn't happen. I used to have a pretty anti Islam view, not just anti extremists, especially after reading the Qur'an and the Hadiths etc., but then I realized that there are Muslims (just like there are people of every faith) who don't take it all literally and Muslims who don't take their faith very seriously, and Muslims who feel that certain passages aren't within the spirit of Islam and who are just as against Islamic extremism as people of other faiths. But at first, the things I was learning scared me to death. I'm over it now, anyway and would welcome a Muslim into my home just as I would welcome anyone else.
What extremists believe, what they want and how they want to get it... None of it is America's fault. People saying that 9/11 was a retaliatory action because of middle east policy at the time are very blind to the nature of extremists. Extremists are simply trying to beat us into submission to Islam. That is what they think they are here to do, to convert us by any means necessary, and if we can't be converted, to kill us. (An interesting fact is that the number of conversions to Islam skyrocketed just after 9/11).
Study of Islamic texts and extremist leaders shows undoubtedly that this is true. As part of my study I spoke to Islamic scholars and former IDF agents, I watched hours of footage of extremists and their leaders, I read the Islamic texts, the history of the religion, the history of the middle east. Everything I could get my hands on by people from all over the world, of various religions and political views, and they all say the same thing. The extremists will convert us or kill us. Not because of anything we have done, but because that is what they believe they are here to do. Anything we do they just use as a beard for their attacks.
Walking on eggshells, it wouldn't change anything. They would just view it as weakness and would fuel them further.
Should we make videos just for the hell of being inflammatory? No, we shouldn't. Because it's stupid. But we shouldn't avoid it because it would somehow stop extremists from attacking. Extremists don't work that way.
By the way, I missed you guys ((hugs)) we don't see eye to eye on everything but you guys are a great bunch and whoever said "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" was right. It's nice to be back at Newbuddhist and I love you guys
I think several of you are overstating the media's role in this...as Americans have a tendency to constantly do nowadays.
The makers of the film are not media (at least in the normal sense). You Tube is not media (at least in the normal sense).
The average protestor in Libya or Egypt are not listening to American media.
My comments about media are not in relation to the influence on protestors in particular - more the influence on the understanding and growth in intolerance rather than promoting a spirit toward tolerance ( in whichever country you would like to nominate, I suggest ) ... this is not overstated.
Film and You Tube are generally considered media, are they not?
Let me answer your last question first. Perhaps I can make my point this way -- there is "THE MEDIA" and there is "the media". If we listen to the Republicans who are always bashing the media, they are talking about the NEWS STATIONS, both CABLE and NETWORK, as well as major NEWSPAPERS and HOLLYWOOD FILM STUDIOS...all of whom (except their beloved fox and a very few newspapers) they see as being owned by liberal groups. Then there's a small film maker who has made one film, or you tube...essentially individual posters (anyone can post from the poorest to the richest, from the most liberal to the most conservative). That's why I said that the kind of ilm maker who made the video in question, and you tubers are not media in the normal sense that we talk about media...they are "unorganized media" that do not represent any consistent viewpoint.
In terms of the media influencing intolerance, I will agree with you to an extent. To me, the media is simply reflecting what sells. For example, I know conservatives who watch nothing but Fox. I know liberals who watch nothing but MSNBC. I know that there are people in the Mideast who watch nothing but Al Jazeera. Why do these people make their personal selections -- because those outlets provide them with what they want. So I guess I'm just putting the responsibility more on the consumer who makes the choice, rather than on the news outlet which provides a service.
Many people here in the West feel that Buddhism is an extreme view.
It's the first I've heard of it.
Well, I'd say that when a large block of people (such as fundamentalist and some other Christians) would say that all the people who are Buddhist are going to Hell because they do not accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior, that they are seeing Buddhism as an extreme view.
I spent the better part of a year studying extremist Islam, particularly in Iran, but also in the wider middle east.
Should this video have been made? As much as I believe in free speech, I would say no. It wasn't made to educate or to entertain, it was made solely to be inflammatory. You know how "with great power comes great responsibility"? Free speech is an enormous power and I think a lot of people ignore the responsibility part.
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Should we make videos just for the hell of being inflammatory? No, we shouldn't. Because it's stupid. But we shouldn't avoid it because it would somehow stop extremists from attacking. Extremists don't work that way.
By the way, I missed you guys ((hugs)) we don't see eye to eye on everything but you guys are a great bunch and whoever said "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" was right. It's nice to be back at Newbuddhist and I love you guys
That was one of the most informative, intelligent and even-handed commentaries on Islam and fundamentalism I have ever read. Thank you for that.
By the way, I missed you guys ((hugs)) we don't see eye to eye on everything but you guys are a great bunch and whoever said "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" was right. It's nice to be back at Newbuddhist and I love you guys
OFF-TOPIC MODERATOR COMMENT: And this is by far the best reason we could ever give to people who either start snotty threads, or send Moderators messages stating "Kindly close my account, I no longer wish to post". (I would point out that Rebecca did no such thing....) This is precisely why we don't. Because the majority of those who feel momentarily miffed, do come back once the dust has settled... I'd hate to slam the door on anyone's behind, just because there was a hiccup and a general, widespread 'fit of pique'.
We're all human, we can't all be 100% perfect, 100% of the time. It's a discussion forum, and occasionally, tempers fray and words get hasty.... It's always best to try not to vent in public and air hasty decisions... pink faces..... if it all gets too much - feel free to take a breather.... But the opportunity is always there for a welcome return.
For every ambassador, how many other citizens have died? I really think we fail to comprehend the immense weight of the deaths our military actions have caused since 2003 (and before). The western militaries have, unfortunately, been the cause of too much death to have their mission/intentions be the only issue.
For every ambassador, how many other citizens have died? I really think we fail to comprehend the immense weight of the deaths our military actions have caused since 2003 (and before). The western militaries have, unfortunately, been the cause of too much death to have their mission/intentions be the only issue.
@andyrobyn, Unfortunately I don't think tolerance goes that far. Tolerance is accepting that others have different beliefs and not interfering with them (it's "live and let live")... it doesn't necessarily mean seeing things from their perspective.
Few people try and see things in a way contrary to their own beliefs, and they have good reasons (at least within their religious traditions). Doubt is the enemy to many people who think belief/faith is the most important thing, that they may never reach "heaven" if they lose their faith. Seeing things in any other way is the last thing they want, and so their beliefs are just as important (if not more so) than their lives. I think a lot of these extremists... are actually afraid.
If faith/belief were not emphasized so much, perhaps there'd be less of a problem. People would feel free to doubt and to investigate other viewpoints. There's too much fear of losing heaven or gaining hell, at least that's what I think.
Just a note- I'd say that people who only discuss writings that are 2500 years old are most likely going to be 'backward'. And there are people who do exactly that. But I agree that this cannot be said as a sweeping generalization of the Middle East.
@cloud Saying seeing it from the other's perspective does not mean agreeing or surrendering in any way. I can see how others' view and live without wanting to join them. It is an attitude of acceptance - seeing that my way is not The Way, the only way or the right way ... this is what live and let live means in it's broadest way, I guess. You are probably correct in saying it is a tall order - it is what is needed for extremism to disappear, I think. I still can see how more balanaced media portrayals would help us move in the desired direction. In Australia the television and newspaper media is owned by a select section with a definate view and we only see a narrow view of the news.
Just been watching BBC news this morning the Egyptian Prime Minister has said it is unacceptable to criticize Islam or the "Prophet".
Historically followers of Islam have had a mentality of violence toward critics and disbelievers much like Muhammad himself who would more often then not leave critics but two options of conversion or death so it is not surprising that his modern day followers who consider Muhammad to be the most perfect example feel justified in violence toward disbelievers.
But I must add; there is a difference between freedom of speach, freedom of thought, and freedom of association. But, there is also a point where these freedoms must be balanced to those who also have the freedom I spoke of. Tolerance, as well as the hope that when discussion go on, both sides can learn from each other.
As cloud said, Tolerance is accepting that others have different beliefs and not interfering with them (it's "live and let live")... it doesn't necessarily mean seeing things from their perspective. But to a point it does need to be at least trying to see a point from each others point of view. But this can only be done when both sides choose to understand each other and to learn of each others customs and way's, we grow into a new and prosperous people. This is how societies grow, by absorbing cultures and ideas. This is how people progress further and forward in life's path. When this does not happen, we have the bloodiest fighting in humanity. And no I'm not isolating what is happening in the middle east; here in America we have our share of hatred that grows to this day. The inquisition, the crusades, and the conqistators, Witch hunts and trials; all done in the name of a deity.
I got caught up in the Occult crimes hysteria of the late ninties; and all it was, was a guranteed legal course of how to make those who do not accept christianity do prison time. (and Buddhism was one of those religions that was on the no acceptance list)
In this case, there is a man, (granted with a rap sheet longer then his arms) who wanted to make a film; and got actors to his set. But the content he know was inflamatory; and after hearing the actors, so did they, and went on with the project. The script was a give away of what was going to happen. When I write it's only after some years of research, and even then I must look at how would this impact society. What type of hatred will foster if this project goes through. Will my topic hurt anyone or have people see them in dishonor?
This event will get worse, we will see more death, more pain and suffering; all because this person had an axe to grind. Right now we should be seeking way's to cool the situation. IMHO
This image shows the percentage of Muslims that were involved in protests against this film. Kinda puts it in persepective. Certainly not representative of an entire religion.
This image shows the percentage of Muslims that were involved in protests against this film. Kinda puts it in persepective. Certainly not representative of an entire religion.
But there may have been many who would have wanted to protest, but lived in areas where no protests occurred.
I'm don't think your data says as much as you think it says.
There is a planned protest here in Thailand at the US embassy in Bangkok tomorrow, however there is also a threat of floods and heavy rain for days, so that will be an interesting protest to say the least.
This Iranian Ayatollah is of the opinion that if they had killed Rushdie in the first place and made an example of him, people would be too afraid to say anything negative about the prophet.
It's a pretty interesting insight to the backward views of extremists.
Recommended reading for anyone interested in the extremist views of the leaders and Ayatollahs of Iran would be "The Little Green Book" by Ayatollah Khomeini (the leader of Iran who was raised into power by the 1979 Islamic revolution) which can be found for free around the Internet and it's not really very long at all.
104,354,798. Number of films (including low /no budget crap)produced in year
1 Number of films produced in year which piss off Muslin extremists Inciting them to commit murder.
Btw I did make up these numbers.
Of those movies, how many were featured on Egyptian network television as this one was? This movie had been online for months before anyone decided to translate it into Arabic and target specific, overseas Muslim audiences.
This movie doesn't just offend extremists, it offends all Muslim, and should offend the rest of us, too. But no--movies shouldn't lead to violence, though if any movie could, this would be one of them.
People aren't rioting because of this movie, they're rioting because the people who made this movie are seen to be the same as those responsible for over decade of "helpful" bombing, shooting and kidnappings, and the same people who killed a whole new batch of civilians just the other day--Westerners. It's confirming their worst fears--that after ten years of killing, coaxing and bribing them into accepting our "liberating" presence, at our heart we totally disrespect Muslims, are happy to make them a laughingstock in private, and could care less if we wiped them and their culture out.
Can you imagine if a Muslim group was killing Americans or Brits literally almost every, single day, and then launched a movie condemning Jesus Christ as a pedophile? The President himself would no doubt raise the issue on national TV.
What would the world reaction be if it were a group of London housewives and their daughters who just got blown to bits, instead of a group of Afghan housewives and their daughters? Nearly every, single one of the thousands of deaths of Muslims over the past decade would itself have been a world headline, had the victims been Westerners.
I absolutely condemn the violence in the film's wake, and I absolutely condemn the violence that led to it, and has turned the Muslim world into a tinderbox.
P.S. I really do wonder what the psychological effect of drones has been. What would the American mindframe be right now if, say, Egyptian drones had been ghosting overhead for a year or so, coming out of God-knows-where without warning, and blowing people to bits? I honestly think I would lose my mind, or at the least become very, very tense and angry after living under the threat of something as psychologically messed up as flying death-robots.
Comments
I think another way of looking at how these things come about is expecting others to have the same views as us and then allowing our distress when they don't to be acted out to such an extent.
Deliberately provoking someone to act in a way one knows will be harmful to others is not in line with the philosophy of "do no harm."
Is avoiding such provocation really "walking on eggshells" or is it just a result of thinking things through?
She commented that it surprised her greatly to see, when she visited Australia and saw the media here, that so many people from western countries do not understand how they offend others when it was very obvious to her.
Right now I'm reading a biography about the King Of Thailand. It's very detailed, and in my view a very balanced review of the King's life. At times it is very complimentary of the King, at other times rather critical. But it is clearly not a book that's designed to be a hatchet job or a love letter. Thais should read it and learn the real story of their own modern history. But they can't. The book is banned. And the author would be jailed for up to 15 years if he returned to Thailand. If I had owned the book while living there, I could have even been jailed. And yet, many Thais think they are the free-est country in the world.
The USA is everything that's wrong with the world to them. And to us, their world is everything that's wrong with religion running people's lives. I'm sorry I'm fuming a little bit, it's sad and annoying that things are like this, and I didn't know about all this violence until a little while ago.
BTW, in case anyone is wondering...yes, I know there is no rioting in Thailand about this issue, and I realize it is not a Muslim country...I'm just making a point with something I experienced as an example.
As has already been pointed out in this discussion, freedom of speech does involve respect and responsibility, although this aspect is not focused on as much in the media.
Just such a frustrating situation.
This is why its never good to respond in kind to violence or insults. It just produces more of the same. It is situations like that that really re-enforce my belief in compassion as the most skillful tool to move forward: even if it doesn't happen in my lifetime.
As one part of the whole, I can only do my part.
As has been said, the western media plays on the emotions which lead to intolerance - for example from the Telegraph article Caz linked ... " 50 US marines despatched to Libya to help hunt down the killers of American ambassador Chris Stevens as suspicions grew that the attack was planned and carefully orchestrated. "
The makers of the film are not media (at least in the normal sense). You Tube is not media (at least in the normal sense).
The average protestor in Libya or Egypt are not listening to American media.
I have 5 registered screenplay's, and won several awards; from experiance, one of the things we research is all of what I will write. This individual new this was the outcome. Especially with the history of what happens when Islam is percieved to be insulted; Rushdee, as a prime example.
As humans we have much to learn towards turning our nature from the paranoid insecure creatures we are, because as this fire widens, we need to be present to at least slow it down.
Film and You Tube are generally considered media, are they not?
For example, some people who would not kill anyone else will express their pent up anger toward someone who is accused of committing a heinous crime and may even call for their execution. This gives them an outlet or an excuse to be angry - at least in their own minds.
I believe this is what is happening now in the Middle East.
There is a lot of pent up anger towards America and what some believe America stands for.
Both sides are calling each other "evil" when, in fact, there is no evil - only ignorance.
It only takes a small trigger to bring this anger to the surface and the trigger, although it appears insignificant to those not swept up in the anger, gets used as the excuse for the actions used to express it.
Should this video have been made? As much as I believe in free speech, I would say no. It wasn't made to educate or to entertain, it was made solely to be inflammatory. You know how "with great power comes great responsibility"? Free speech is an enormous power and I think a lot of people ignore the responsibility part.
But I don't think the video shouldn't have been made to avoid violence or to walk on eggshells, it shouldn't have been made because it serves no genuine purpose. I think we should be able to say whatever we like about extremists, about other nations, other religions, but the difference is in the purpose of doing so.
Saying the video shouldn't have been made because then the violence wouldn't have happened is false. Extremists don't work that way. The violence wasn't in retaliation to the video, the video was just an excuse for violence that would have happened anyway.
Because that is the Islamist extremist manifesto - create war and violence. Do everything to scare people into converting to Islam, and if they don't convert, kill them. Certain sects of Islam believe that by creating world war they will incite the return of the "12th Imam" - sort of like the Islamic version of the second coming of Christ - who will rise again and "cleanse" the world. Unlike the second coming of Christ (because he's just going to turn up whenever he feels like it and we just wait around) they believe that they can hasten his coming.
The extremists want war and violence. That's why we see footage of them chanting "Death to Israel" and "death to America".
Things like this video... Saying its the cause of the violence is false, it's just an excuse for it. They already had violent intentions, but this way they can make it look like we're somehow at fault.
Everything the extremists believe, it's all in the Qur'an and in the Hadiths. People say that "well, the Bible has some pretty nasty shit in it too" and that's very true, but in the Qur'an it's specifically said that all written must be taken as true (not as parable) and must never be changed. Many churches now don't even teach the Old Testament, preachers describe the stories as parables (even the ones not stated as parable) but that can't happen in Islam.
Not to say that it doesn't happen. I used to have a pretty anti Islam view, not just anti extremists, especially after reading the Qur'an and the Hadiths etc., but then I realized that there are Muslims (just like there are people of every faith) who don't take it all literally and Muslims who don't take their faith very seriously, and Muslims who feel that certain passages aren't within the spirit of Islam and who are just as against Islamic extremism as people of other faiths. But at first, the things I was learning scared me to death. I'm over it now, anyway and would welcome a Muslim into my home just as I would welcome anyone else.
What extremists believe, what they want and how they want to get it... None of it is America's fault. People saying that 9/11 was a retaliatory action because of middle east policy at the time are very blind to the nature of extremists. Extremists are simply trying to beat us into submission to Islam. That is what they think they are here to do, to convert us by any means necessary, and if we can't be converted, to kill us. (An interesting fact is that the number of conversions to Islam skyrocketed just after 9/11).
Study of Islamic texts and extremist leaders shows undoubtedly that this is true. As part of my study I spoke to Islamic scholars and former IDF agents, I watched hours of footage of extremists and their leaders, I read the Islamic texts, the history of the religion, the history of the middle east. Everything I could get my hands on by people from all over the world, of various religions and political views, and they all say the same thing. The extremists will convert us or kill us. Not because of anything we have done, but because that is what they believe they are here to do. Anything we do they just use as a beard for their attacks.
Walking on eggshells, it wouldn't change anything. They would just view it as weakness and would fuel them further.
Should we make videos just for the hell of being inflammatory? No, we shouldn't. Because it's stupid. But we shouldn't avoid it because it would somehow stop extremists from attacking. Extremists don't work that way.
By the way, I missed you guys ((hugs)) we don't see eye to eye on everything but you guys are a great bunch and whoever said "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" was right. It's nice to be back at Newbuddhist and I love you guys
Film and You Tube are generally considered media, are they not?
Let me answer your last question first. Perhaps I can make my point this way -- there is "THE MEDIA" and there is "the media". If we listen to the Republicans who are always bashing the media, they are talking about the NEWS STATIONS, both CABLE and NETWORK, as well as major NEWSPAPERS and HOLLYWOOD FILM STUDIOS...all of whom (except their beloved fox and a very few newspapers) they see as being owned by liberal groups. Then there's a small film maker who has made one film, or you tube...essentially individual posters (anyone can post from the poorest to the richest, from the most liberal to the most conservative). That's why I said that the kind of ilm maker who made the video in question, and you tubers are not media in the normal sense that we talk about media...they are "unorganized media" that do not represent any consistent viewpoint.
In terms of the media influencing intolerance, I will agree with you to an extent. To me, the media is simply reflecting what sells. For example, I know conservatives who watch nothing but Fox. I know liberals who watch nothing but MSNBC. I know that there are people in the Mideast who watch nothing but Al Jazeera. Why do these people make their personal selections -- because those outlets provide them with what they want. So I guess I'm just putting the responsibility more on the consumer who makes the choice, rather than on the news outlet which provides a service.
Well, I'd say that when a large block of people (such as fundamentalist and some other Christians) would say that all the people who are Buddhist are going to Hell because they do not accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior, that they are seeing Buddhism as an extreme view.
And this is by far the best reason we could ever give to people who either start snotty threads, or send Moderators messages stating "Kindly close my account, I no longer wish to post". (I would point out that Rebecca did no such thing....)
This is precisely why we don't. Because the majority of those who feel momentarily miffed, do come back once the dust has settled...
I'd hate to slam the door on anyone's behind, just because there was a hiccup and a general, widespread 'fit of pique'.
We're all human, we can't all be 100% perfect, 100% of the time.
It's a discussion forum, and occasionally, tempers fray and words get hasty....
It's always best to try not to vent in public and air hasty decisions... pink faces..... if it all gets too much - feel free to take a breather....
But the opportunity is always there for a welcome return.
Hi @RebeccaS.
MODERATOR COMMENT ENDS.
BACK TO TOPIC, THANKS.
Few people try and see things in a way contrary to their own beliefs, and they have good reasons (at least within their religious traditions). Doubt is the enemy to many people who think belief/faith is the most important thing, that they may never reach "heaven" if they lose their faith. Seeing things in any other way is the last thing they want, and so their beliefs are just as important (if not more so) than their lives. I think a lot of these extremists... are actually afraid.
If faith/belief were not emphasized so much, perhaps there'd be less of a problem. People would feel free to doubt and to investigate other viewpoints. There's too much fear of losing heaven or gaining hell, at least that's what I think.
Just a note- I'd say that people who only discuss writings that are 2500 years old are most likely going to be 'backward'. And there are people who do exactly that. But I agree that this cannot be said as a sweeping generalization of the Middle East.
I can see how others' view and live without wanting to join them.
It is an attitude of acceptance - seeing that my way is not The Way, the only way or the right way ... this is what live and let live means in it's broadest way, I guess.
You are probably correct in saying it is a tall order - it is what is needed for extremism to disappear, I think.
I still can see how more balanaced media portrayals would help us move in the desired direction.
In Australia the television and newspaper media is owned by a select section with a definate view and we only see a narrow view of the news.
Historically followers of Islam have had a mentality of violence toward critics and disbelievers much like Muhammad himself who would more often then not leave critics but two options of conversion or death so it is not surprising that his modern day followers who consider Muhammad to be the most perfect example feel justified in violence toward disbelievers.
As cloud said, Tolerance is accepting that others have different beliefs and not interfering with them (it's "live and let live")... it doesn't necessarily mean seeing things from their perspective. But to a point it does need to be at least trying to see a point from each others point of view. But this can only be done when both sides choose to understand each other and to learn of each others customs and way's, we grow into a new and prosperous people. This is how societies grow, by absorbing cultures and ideas. This is how people progress further and forward in life's path. When this does not happen, we have the bloodiest fighting in humanity. And no I'm not isolating what is happening in the middle east; here in America we have our share of hatred that grows to this day. The inquisition, the crusades, and the conqistators, Witch hunts and trials; all done in the name of a deity.
I got caught up in the Occult crimes hysteria of the late ninties; and all it was, was a guranteed legal course of how to make those who do not accept christianity do prison time. (and Buddhism was one of those religions that was on the no acceptance list)
In this case, there is a man, (granted with a rap sheet longer then his arms) who wanted to make a film; and got actors to his set. But the content he know was inflamatory; and after hearing the actors, so did they, and went on with the project. The script was a give away of what was going to happen. When I write it's only after some years of research, and even then I must look at how would this impact society. What type of hatred will foster if this project goes through. Will my topic hurt anyone or have people see them in dishonor?
This event will get worse, we will see more death, more pain and suffering; all because this person had an axe to grind. Right now we should be seeking way's to cool the situation. IMHO
I'm don't think your data says as much as you think it says.
If no protests occured in certain areas, surely that is indicative that the people in those areas did not wish to protest.
BTW, I did not create this list, it was just doing the rounds of the internet yesterday and i thought it was insightful.
1 Number of films produced in year which piss off Muslin extremists
Inciting them to commit murder.
Btw I did make up these numbers.
This Iranian Ayatollah is of the opinion that if they had killed Rushdie in the first place and made an example of him, people would be too afraid to say anything negative about the prophet.
It's a pretty interesting insight to the backward views of extremists.
Recommended reading for anyone interested in the extremist views of the leaders and Ayatollahs of Iran would be "The Little Green Book" by Ayatollah Khomeini (the leader of Iran who was raised into power by the 1979 Islamic revolution) which can be found for free around the Internet and it's not really very long at all.
This movie doesn't just offend extremists, it offends all Muslim, and should offend the rest of us, too. But no--movies shouldn't lead to violence, though if any movie could, this would be one of them.
People aren't rioting because of this movie, they're rioting because the people who made this movie are seen to be the same as those responsible for over decade of "helpful" bombing, shooting and kidnappings, and the same people who killed a whole new batch of civilians just the other day--Westerners. It's confirming their worst fears--that after ten years of killing, coaxing and bribing them into accepting our "liberating" presence, at our heart we totally disrespect Muslims, are happy to make them a laughingstock in private, and could care less if we wiped them and their culture out.
Can you imagine if a Muslim group was killing Americans or Brits literally almost every, single day, and then launched a movie condemning Jesus Christ as a pedophile? The President himself would no doubt raise the issue on national TV.
What would the world reaction be if it were a group of London housewives and their daughters who just got blown to bits, instead of a group of Afghan housewives and their daughters? Nearly every, single one of the thousands of deaths of Muslims over the past decade would itself have been a world headline, had the victims been Westerners.
I absolutely condemn the violence in the film's wake, and I absolutely condemn the violence that led to it, and has turned the Muslim world into a tinderbox.
P.S. I really do wonder what the psychological effect of drones has been. What would the American mindframe be right now if, say, Egyptian drones had been ghosting overhead for a year or so, coming out of God-knows-where without warning, and blowing people to bits? I honestly think I would lose my mind, or at the least become very, very tense and angry after living under the threat of something as psychologically messed up as flying death-robots.