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Expand your mind!

CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
edited September 2012 in General Banter
Several years ago the scientists pointed our Hubble telescope at nothing. They picked a dark, featureless patch of the sky with no lights or stars or radio emissions coming from there at all and just let the space based telescope sit there, gathering what invisible faint stuff might come our way. How small? Hold a postage stamp at arms length at the night sky.

The result is an explosion of galaxies. Every tiny light you see in the picture is not a star; it's a galaxy with billions of stars in it. And this is a typical picture of every tiny bit of universe around us. And now that we can look for planets around distant stars, we're finding most stars we look at have planets. Planets are as common as grains of sand on a beach, it seems.

And life? Life exists on our own planet in deep freeze and super hot steam. Our planet, in its history, has been roasted by volcanic and asteroid strikes, and frozen into a ball covered completely with ice. And life somehow struggled on.

Everything we know tells us that In this one little patch of sky, you are looking at billions of worlds that contain life. Say hello to the distant relatives of ours.

personcozkarastiSabbyDaltheJigsawThailandTom
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Comments

  • If we're anything to go by probably best to keep our heads down... ;)
    tmottes
  • Lee82Lee82 Veteran
    edited September 2012
    I saw that image this morning, impressive work by NASA. I used to be fascinated by outer space but the more I looked in to it the more I thought "what's the point".

    You could devote your whole life to learning about space, trying to discover new things, understand time and space and the highly technical theories that exist. But really, what do you get out of it, absolutely nothing. The magnitude of what's out there is ridiculous but the only thing that will ever make a difference to your life is living on planet earth so why waste any effort even contemplating what goes on beyond our own atmosphere?

    This is of course just my opinion but one I formed having taken a genuine interest in these things before realising it simply doesn't matter.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Cinorjer said:

    Everything we know tells us that In this one little patch of sky, you are looking at billions of worlds that contain life. Say hello to the distant relatives of ours.

    I wonder if there are space-alien Buddhists out there?
    ;)
    mfranzdorf
  • Cinorjer said:

    Everything we know tells us that In this one little patch of sky, you are looking at billions of worlds that contain life. Say hello to the distant relatives of ours.

    I wonder if there are space-alien Buddhists out there?
    ;)

    Somewhere out there a Dweep is having its ventricles crushed by the High Snorks because it insists the Great Ploof never said crossing a slime trail was a sin.

    And perhaps somewhere else a Snark sits under a Jubie plant in meditation, wondering what the meaning is to it all.

    PrairieGhostfedericaSabby
  • Cinorjer said:


    And perhaps somewhere else a Snark sits under a Jubie plant in meditation, wondering what the meaning is to it all.

    That's just ridiculous - Jubie plants are way too small to sit under - it would be a fallangalanga tree if anything ;)
    cozCinorjerSabby
  • Zero said:

    Cinorjer said:


    And perhaps somewhere else a Snark sits under a Jubie plant in meditation, wondering what the meaning is to it all.

    That's just ridiculous - Jubie plants are way too small to sit under - it would be a fallangalanga tree if anything ;)
    Blasphemer! The sacred knotted strings as passed down to our temple are clear that the sacred Jubie plant extended its fronds to protect the young Prince from the acid rain. While it's true the fallangalanga tree widely grew in the volcanic ash, it's tenticles could not have blocked even a mild acid mist.

    It was a very tall Jubie plant.
    Zero
  • The cosmos was not made especially for us earth bound humanoids to enjoy at our leisure. It holds a great mystery within it and we are part of that mystery. But there are too few of us who wish to ponder this mystery. My hat is off to all you stargazers and navigators of the spirit. May you also shine.
    warty bliggens the toad

    i met a toad
    the other day by the name
    of warty bliggens
    he was sitting under
    a toadstool
    feeling contented
    he explained that when the cosmos
    was created
    that toadstool was especially planned for his personal
    shelter from sun and rain
    thought out and prepared
    for him


    do not tell me
    said warty bliggens
    that there is not a purpose
    in the universe
    the thought is blasphemy

    a little more
    conversation revealed
    that warty bliggens
    considers himself to be
    the centre of the said
    universe
    the earth exists
    to grow toadstools for him
    to sit under

    the sun to give him light
    by day and the moon
    and wheeling constellations
    to make beautiful
    the night for the sake of
    warty bliggens

    to what act of yours
    do you impute
    this interest on the part
    of the creator
    of the universe
    i asked him
    why is it that you
    are so greatly favoured

    ask rather
    said warty bliggens
    what the universe has done to deserve me

    if i were a
    human being i would
    not laugh
    too complacently
    at poor warty bliggens
    for similar
    absurdities
    have only too often
    lodged in the crinkles
    of the human cerebrum

    archy (Emphasis added.)

    ~ Don Marquis, 1927
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I live near a physics lab that studies neutrinos, it's pretty interesting stuff...that they can shoot rays of "stuff" 7000 feet deep in the earth's crest from 500 miles away, through the rock, and capture it in a hunk of steel under the ground. Crazy what the human mind can contemplate. I think there is reason to study such stuff, if nothing else it helps calm our ego and stresses our vast unimportantness in the universe.

    At a retreat this past summer, someone asked Lama Dorjee how to get over the guilt of driving a car 30 miles to attend Buddhist meetings. The Lama laughed and said it is good to be aware of our actions on our planet and to treat all things with loving kindness in our actions, but that if we destroy our planet, we'll just reincarnate on another one, lol. He got a good laugh out of that one.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited September 2012
    Lee82 said:

    I saw that image this morning, impressive work by NASA. I used to be fascinated by outer space but the more I looked in to it the more I thought "what's the point".

    You could devote your whole life to learning about space, trying to discover new things, understand time and space and the highly technical theories that exist. But really, what do you get out of it, absolutely nothing. The magnitude of what's out there is ridiculous but the only thing that will ever make a difference to your life is living on planet earth so why waste any effort even contemplating what goes on beyond our own atmosphere?

    "What do you get out of it?"

    Inspiration? Awe?
    A sense of something greater than ourselves, that's an eternal mystery?
    Mystical experience? A sense of ourselves as insignificant by comparison, and therefore silly in our ego-based pursuits?
    A sense of the miraculousness of life?

    One person's waste of effort is another person's inspiration for living and reaching for an expanded consciousness that provides the impetus for spiritual service.

  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Hello Relatives!:) Thanks for this post!!
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    The interesting thing is that we really don't know what other forms life might have taken in distant galaxies, and it seems unlikely they're all humanoid or even carbon-based. So it's possible the Buddha's description wasn't so far off the mark. :p
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I believe we are all part of the universe, and we all operate, like the universe, under the same principles of energy and vibration. Understanding the universe only helps us to understand ourselves.
    Sile
  • Dakini said:

    Lee82 said:

    I saw that image this morning, impressive work by NASA. I used to be fascinated by outer space but the more I looked in to it the more I thought "what's the point".

    You could devote your whole life to learning about space, trying to discover new things, understand time and space and the highly technical theories that exist. But really, what do you get out of it, absolutely nothing. The magnitude of what's out there is ridiculous but the only thing that will ever make a difference to your life is living on planet earth so why waste any effort even contemplating what goes on beyond our own atmosphere?

    "What do you get out of it?"

    Inspiration? Awe?
    A sense of something greater than ourselves, that's an eternal mystery?
    Mystical experience? A sense of ourselves as insignificant by comparison, and therefore silly in our ego-based pursuits?
    A sense of the miraculousness of life?

    One person's waste of effort is another person's inspiration for living and reaching for an expanded consciousness that provides the impetus for spiritual service.

    Awe, beauty, inspiration ... These are just man-made concepts, not intrinsic to life. Nature in its essence is nothing but naked brutality ... Bigger organisms subduing weaker ones, tsunamis, diseases, and the rest.
  • Zero said:

    If we're anything to go by probably best to keep our heads down... ;)

    Funny you say that, Stephan Hawking said we should stop trying to communicate with aliens because if they do come to visit, they are obviously for advanced and therefore smarter. Look to how life works here, the smarter beings control the not so clever beings, we enslave animals, use them for our own consumption. So yea, we could be in for a lot of trouble if they did ever turn up some day. On the other hand, they may be so clever that they have gone past the whole violence thing, which would be good :)
    Sile
  • music said:

    Dakini said:

    Lee82 said:

    I saw that image this morning, impressive work by NASA. I used to be fascinated by outer space but the more I looked in to it the more I thought "what's the point".

    You could devote your whole life to learning about space, trying to discover new things, understand time and space and the highly technical theories that exist. But really, what do you get out of it, absolutely nothing. The magnitude of what's out there is ridiculous but the only thing that will ever make a difference to your life is living on planet earth so why waste any effort even contemplating what goes on beyond our own atmosphere?

    "What do you get out of it?"

    Inspiration? Awe?
    A sense of something greater than ourselves, that's an eternal mystery?
    Mystical experience? A sense of ourselves as insignificant by comparison, and therefore silly in our ego-based pursuits?
    A sense of the miraculousness of life?

    One person's waste of effort is another person's inspiration for living and reaching for an expanded consciousness that provides the impetus for spiritual service.

    Awe, beauty, inspiration ... These are just man-made concepts, not intrinsic to life. Nature in its essence is nothing but naked brutality ... Bigger organisms subduing weaker ones, tsunamis, diseases, and the rest.
    That's ridiculous :lol:

    I don't know why your world view is so jaded but it doesn't seem very healthy.
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    music:
    Awe, beauty, inspiration ... These are just man-made concepts, not intrinsic to life. Nature in its essence is nothing but naked brutality ... Bigger organisms subduing weaker ones, tsunamis, diseases, and the rest.
    'We live in a wheel, where everyone steals, but when we rise it's like strawberry fields'

    Bush, Glycerine
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Also, music, you are depressed. I've felt exactly the same; one thinks one is being realistic, whereas actually that 'realism' is the the man-made concept.

    You'll not always feel this way, I promise.
    RebeccaS
  • Also, music, you are depressed. I've felt exactly the same; one thinks one is being realistic, whereas actually that 'realism' is the the man-made concept.

    You'll not always feel this way, I promise.

    Totally agree. Maybe it would be a good idea for you to find someone to talk to - a professional like a doctor or a therapist. There's no shame in depression, I used to have it severely, and you can get over it.

    But yeah, speak to a doctor and find out what it actually is. It could be depression in the classic sense or it could be a symptom of something else, a thyroid problem for example. Go get checked out. :)
  • RebeccaS said:

    music said:

    Dakini said:

    Lee82 said:

    I saw that image this morning, impressive work by NASA. I used to be fascinated by outer space but the more I looked in to it the more I thought "what's the point".

    You could devote your whole life to learning about space, trying to discover new things, understand time and space and the highly technical theories that exist. But really, what do you get out of it, absolutely nothing. The magnitude of what's out there is ridiculous but the only thing that will ever make a difference to your life is living on planet earth so why waste any effort even contemplating what goes on beyond our own atmosphere?

    "What do you get out of it?"

    Inspiration? Awe?
    A sense of something greater than ourselves, that's an eternal mystery?
    Mystical experience? A sense of ourselves as insignificant by comparison, and therefore silly in our ego-based pursuits?
    A sense of the miraculousness of life?

    One person's waste of effort is another person's inspiration for living and reaching for an expanded consciousness that provides the impetus for spiritual service.

    Awe, beauty, inspiration ... These are just man-made concepts, not intrinsic to life. Nature in its essence is nothing but naked brutality ... Bigger organisms subduing weaker ones, tsunamis, diseases, and the rest.
    That's ridiculous :lol:

    I don't know why your world view is so jaded but it doesn't seem very healthy.
    It is not a world view. It is Darwinian natural selection - organisms fight each other for resources, and this creates conflict, competition etc. that's life. Even galaxies swallow each other, black holes swallow everything, including light. This is perhaps why religions emphasize the afterlife - cuz they understand the brutality of the present life.
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited October 2012
    music said:

    RebeccaS said:

    music said:

    Dakini said:

    Lee82 said:

    I saw that image this morning, impressive work by NASA. I used to be fascinated by outer space but the more I looked in to it the more I thought "what's the point".

    You could devote your whole life to learning about space, trying to discover new things, understand time and space and the highly technical theories that exist. But really, what do you get out of it, absolutely nothing. The magnitude of what's out there is ridiculous but the only thing that will ever make a difference to your life is living on planet earth so why waste any effort even contemplating what goes on beyond our own atmosphere?

    "What do you get out of it?"

    Inspiration? Awe?
    A sense of something greater than ourselves, that's an eternal mystery?
    Mystical experience? A sense of ourselves as insignificant by comparison, and therefore silly in our ego-based pursuits?
    A sense of the miraculousness of life?

    One person's waste of effort is another person's inspiration for living and reaching for an expanded consciousness that provides the impetus for spiritual service.

    Awe, beauty, inspiration ... These are just man-made concepts, not intrinsic to life. Nature in its essence is nothing but naked brutality ... Bigger organisms subduing weaker ones, tsunamis, diseases, and the rest.
    That's ridiculous :lol:

    I don't know why your world view is so jaded but it doesn't seem very healthy.
    It is not a world view. It is Darwinian natural selection - organisms fight each other for resources, and this creates conflict, competition etc. that's life. Even galaxies swallow each other, black holes swallow everything, including light. This is perhaps why religions emphasize the afterlife - cuz they understand the brutality of the present life.
    It's funny that you mention black holes. I've been watching space documentaries all week. They have been BLOWING MY MIND :lol: The big bang, black holes, supernovae, planets, moons, stars. Like, wow.

    But they key difference is between what what a healthy person seeing and what you're seeing. A healthy person is seeing something beautiful, miraculous and awe inspiring.

    You're seeing brutality. And I can't really explain it in another way other than what you're seeing is false. While what a healthy person is seeing may not be the absolute truth, it's closer to the truth than what you're seeing.

    If you're seeing something positive, you're on the right track. This isn't about wishful thinking, seeing things that aren't there, it's that "truth is beauty, beauty is truth". If you're not seeing the beauty, you're not seeing the truth.

    You're confusing being a realist and being a pessimist. A realist will acknowledge and accept the Darwinian theory as being the best explanation we have right now, but only a pessimist will construe it as negative.

    So you see, a healthy person is not denying the the things that happen in our universe and our world so theyre still a realist, but negativity doesn't even factor into the equation. A healthy person is not seeing brutality, they're seeing creation and evolution, which is a beautiful and miraculous thing.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. Some of the stuff you say just really stood out to me as not necessarily being that healthy, but I'm not a doctor and only a doctor can make that call. I just hope you're doing ok. :)
  • You are seeing the universe as it is, neither good or bad, it is what it is. It only is good or bad when we humans or whatever owns a consciousness gives it meaning and a label.

    Every galazy has a blackhole in the centre of it and ours is fairly small if I can recall, but there are also rougue blackholes that wonder aroud eating things up.

    But yea going back to my point, everything that goes on in the world, in the universe goes on as it does, conditions rising and passing dependent on each other. They are what they are and we only give meaning to them which is where the problems arise. If there was a great flood again in Bangkok this year that would be bad for many people, but it would be good for companies who sell boots and waterproof clothing. In reality it is just the universe running like clockwork, neutral.
  • You are seeing the universe as it is, neither good or bad, it is what it is. It only is good or bad when we humans or whatever owns a consciousness gives it meaning and a label.

    Every galazy has a blackhole in the centre of it and ours is fairly small if I can recall, but there are also rougue blackholes that wonder aroud eating things up.

    But yea going back to my point, everything that goes on in the world, in the universe goes on as it does, conditions rising and passing dependent on each other. They are what they are and we only give meaning to them which is where the problems arise. If there was a great flood again in Bangkok this year that would be bad for many people, but it would be good for companies who sell boots and waterproof clothing. In reality it is just the universe running like clockwork, neutral.

    I don't know... I think you're right... But also wrong :lol: I can't explain it though :)
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Hi music:
    It is not a world view. It is Darwinian natural selection - organisms fight each other for resources, and this creates conflict, competition etc. that's life.
    No, it isn't. That's the delusion which scientists have ended up reinforcing. The delusion isn't that the facts are wrong, it is inherent in the focus they have chosen, which is based on craving.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero–sum_game
    In game theory and economic theory, a zero–sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which a participant's gain (or loss) of utility is exactly balanced by the losses (or gains) of the utility of the other participant(s). If the total gains of the participants are added up, and the total losses are subtracted, they will sum to zero. Thus cutting a cake, where taking a larger piece reduces the amount of cake available for others, is a zero–sum game if all participants value each unit of cake equally (see marginal utility).
    The game is based on a view of self (my cake). Any view of self is limiting (even, 'I am everything', or 'I have all the cake') and thus causes this zero sum game view, where we think there is a limited amount of cake, and fight for it, selfishly, as in the animal kingdom.

    When we take apparent risk of selflessness, we are delivered from scarcity and competition.

    The key is it what you mean by 'resources'. The body needs food, water, shelter, and so on.

    But what do you need?

  • Hi music:

    It is not a world view. It is Darwinian natural selection - organisms fight each other for resources, and this creates conflict, competition etc. that's life.
    No, it isn't. That's the delusion which scientists have ended up reinforcing. The delusion isn't that the facts are wrong, it is inherent in the focus they have chosen, which is based on craving.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero–sum_game
    In game theory and economic theory, a zero–sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which a participant's gain (or loss) of utility is exactly balanced by the losses (or gains) of the utility of the other participant(s). If the total gains of the participants are added up, and the total losses are subtracted, they will sum to zero. Thus cutting a cake, where taking a larger piece reduces the amount of cake available for others, is a zero–sum game if all participants value each unit of cake equally (see marginal utility).
    The game is based on a view of self (my cake). Any view of self is limiting (even, 'I am everything, or 'I have all the cake') and thus causes this zero sum game view.

    When we take apparent risk of selflessness, we are delivered from scarcity and competition.



    That's super interesting, can you explain it a little more?
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    RebeccaS:
    That's super interesting, can you explain it a little more?
    Check out this allegory:
    "I once ascended to the firmaments. I first went to see Hell and the sight was horrifying. Row after row of tables were laden with platters of sumptuous food, yet the people seated around the tables were pale and emaciated, moaning in hunger. As I came closer, I understood their predicament.

    "Every person held a full spoon, but both arms were splinted with wooden slats so he could not bend either elbow to bring the food to his mouth. It broke my heart to hear the tortured groans of these poor people as they held their food so near but could not consume it.

    "Next I went to visit Heaven. I was surprised to see the same setting I had witnessed in Hell – row after row of long tables laden with food. But in contrast to Hell, the people here in Heaven were sitting contentedly talking with each other, obviously sated from their sumptuous meal.

    "As I came closer, I was amazed to discover that here, too, each person had his arms splinted on wooden slats that prevented him from bending his elbows. How, then, did they manage to eat?

    "As I watched, a man picked up his spoon and dug it into the dish before him. Then he stretched across the table and fed the person across from him! The recipient of this kindness thanked him and returned the favor by leaning across the table to feed his benefactor.

    I suddenly understood. Heaven and Hell offer the same circumstances and conditions. The critical difference is in the way the people treat each other.

    I ran back to Hell to share this solution with the poor souls trapped there. I whispered in the ear of one starving man, "You do not have to go hungry. Use your spoon to feed your neighbor, and he will surely return the favor and feed you."

    "'You expect me to feed the detestable man sitting across the table?' said the man angrily. 'I would rather starve than give him the pleasure of eating!'

    "I then understood God’s wisdom in choosing who is worthy to go to Heaven and who deserves to go to Hell." [3]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_long_spoons
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    RebeccaS:

    Basically, everything is finite and therefore scarce, except love, which isn't a thing.

    All unsatisfactory phenomena arise from restrictions the mind places on love, just as the sky is blue because the atmosphere filters out the rest of the spectrum of light.
    RebeccaS
  • @RebeccaS why can you not explain it? do you not fully understand your own concepts and views on things? Elaborate, please do.
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    I think you meant me. I understand, but I am not yet adept at helping others understand. I'm learning as we speak.

    No, you didn't mean me. Still, I'll leave my response where it is.
  • @RebeccaS why can you not explain it? do you not fully understand your own concepts and views on things? Elaborate, please do.

    I can't really. It's like, a gut feeling. Difficult to explain, much less coherently :lol:

    It's like... What you're saying is correct in a way, but it's missing something. Love, maybe? I'm not sure. Like I said, it's like a gut feeling :)

  • RebeccaS said:

    @RebeccaS why can you not explain it? do you not fully understand your own concepts and views on things? Elaborate, please do.

    I can't really. It's like, a gut feeling. Difficult to explain, much less coherently :lol:

    It's like... What you're saying is correct in a way, but it's missing something. Love, maybe? I'm not sure. Like I said, it's like a gut feeling :)

    Compassion follows wisdom, one who has a lot of wisdom knows the power of compassion. If you wish to discuss compassion in everyday life I would join in, but this thread seems to not be on that wave length.
  • RebeccaS said:

    @RebeccaS why can you not explain it? do you not fully understand your own concepts and views on things? Elaborate, please do.

    I can't really. It's like, a gut feeling. Difficult to explain, much less coherently :lol:

    It's like... What you're saying is correct in a way, but it's missing something. Love, maybe? I'm not sure. Like I said, it's like a gut feeling :)

    Compassion follows wisdom, one who has a lot of wisdom knows the power of compassion. If you wish to discuss compassion in everyday life I would join in, but this thread seems to not be on that wave length.
    I don't really know what that has to do with what I said. Like I said, something you wrote just seemed like it was missing something to me, though I'm not sure what. It's not a big deal :)
  • Well try and look deep within, maybe it is something you are clinging to and think should be there despite whatever anybody else says...? I really would like to hear what you thought was missing, not because I think I am correct, far from it, I am just curious to know where this thought has come from, aren't you?
  • RebeccaS said:

    RebeccaS said:

    @RebeccaS why can you not explain it? do you not fully understand your own concepts and views on things? Elaborate, please do.

    I can't really. It's like, a gut feeling. Difficult to explain, much less coherently :lol:

    It's like... What you're saying is correct in a way, but it's missing something. Love, maybe? I'm not sure. Like I said, it's like a gut feeling :)

    Compassion follows wisdom, one who has a lot of wisdom knows the power of compassion. If you wish to discuss compassion in everyday life I would join in, but this thread seems to not be on that wave length.
    I don't really know what that has to do with what I said. Like I said, something you wrote just seemed like it was missing something to me, though I'm not sure what. It's not a big deal :)
    Got it. It was missing an article, right?
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Hi ThailandTom:
    You are seeing the universe as it is
    As I said before, but I'll make it clearer now: scientists aren't seeing the universe as it is, because their views are based on what they choose to study, and what they choose to study is based on craving which in turn is based on beginningless ignorance.
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited October 2012

    Well try and look deep within, maybe it is something you are clinging to and think should be there despite whatever anybody else says...? I really would like to hear what you thought was missing, not because I think I am correct, far from it, I am just curious to know where this thought has come from, aren't you?

    Yeah, that's what I wanted to explore when I made the original comment. I didn't really make that very clear though. Like, what is it that I think is missing? And does that make sense? I have to figure out what it is first though. It just hasn't moved from my gut brain to my head brain yet :lol:
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited October 2012

    Hi ThailandTom:

    You are seeing the universe as it is
    As I said before, but I'll make it clearer now: scientists aren't seeing the universe as it is, because their views are based on what they choose to study, and what they choose to study is based on craving which in turn is based on beginningless ignorance.

    Ok, so this would be a step in the right direction for me then as this is how I have been seeing things more and more lately. I guess I am starting to become a hardcore Buddhist lol, I am adopting the teachings in a very serious manner that is leading me even further away from the lay life way of living.
  • music said:

    RebeccaS said:

    RebeccaS said:

    @RebeccaS why can you not explain it? do you not fully understand your own concepts and views on things? Elaborate, please do.

    I can't really. It's like, a gut feeling. Difficult to explain, much less coherently :lol:

    It's like... What you're saying is correct in a way, but it's missing something. Love, maybe? I'm not sure. Like I said, it's like a gut feeling :)

    Compassion follows wisdom, one who has a lot of wisdom knows the power of compassion. If you wish to discuss compassion in everyday life I would join in, but this thread seems to not be on that wave length.
    I don't really know what that has to do with what I said. Like I said, something you wrote just seemed like it was missing something to me, though I'm not sure what. It's not a big deal :)
    Got it. It was missing an article, right?
    Who needs an article when you have mind? But that mind is a tool, a tool that is ownerless and the key to knowing and not just reacting.
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited October 2012

    Hi ThailandTom:

    You are seeing the universe as it is
    As I said before, but I'll make it clearer now: scientists aren't seeing the universe as it is, because their views are based on what they choose to study, and what they choose to study is based on craving which in turn is based on beginningless ignorance.

    Like... I choose to become an astrophysicist, so everything that I discover while studying the universe is rendered incorrect because I chose to study astrophysics and the universe?

    That doesn't really make sense.
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited October 2012
    The mistakes science really make are in its interpretation and explanation of phenomena. Often it's a case of working backwards - first observing something and then finding a way to explain it.

    What has been observed is pretty indisputable, it's our interpretation of it that is called into question. That's why we have no laws in science, only theories.

    Scientists know that the current theories du jour are just theories based on our current understanding, which is apt to change over time as we discover new information.

    If we see am explosion of lights in space, our decision to study space doesn't influence that in any way, and we can say with certainty that there was an explosion of light in space. The only place we might get it wrong is in trying to determine what the explosion actually is and its cause.

    If I pinched you, you could say with absolute certainty that I pinched you and you'd be absolutely correct. If someone asked you why I pinched you, that's where you might get it wrong.
  • ThailandTomThailandTom Veteran
    edited October 2012
    RebeccaS said:

    The mistakes science really make are in its interpretation and explanation of phenomena. Often it's a case of working backwards - first observing something and then finding a way to explain it.

    What has been observed is pretty indisputable, it's our interpretation of it that is called into question. That's why we have no laws in science, only theories.

    Scientists know that the current theories du jour are just theories based on our current understanding, which is apt to change over time as we discover new information.

    If we see am explosion of lights in space, our decision to study space doesn't influence that in any way, and we can say with certainty that there was an explosion of light in space. The only place we might get it wrong is in trying to determine what the explosion actually is and its cause.

    I am not even going to get into this now whilst it is nearly 1am here and I have Thai classes in 8hours. I have too much to say on the matter and too little time, I hope someone can come in and help you with this discussion. Nyt all
  • Who has the power, the one who asks the question or the one who answers?
    ThailandTom
  • Who has the power, the one who asks the question or the one who answers?

    I don't do riddles :)
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Haha. No, you don't, no problem.

    Ok, a man locked in a room is going to make a very intense study of lockpicking, but that doesn't mean locks have anything to do with ontological truth.

    What we want to know about the universe is based on our suffering. Even the very concept of ontology is based on suffering - 'does x exist' means 'can I cling to it and be safe from harm?'.

    Science is useful, but basing science on what is observable and repeatable places a limit on the depth of understanding it can realise, and thus a limit on its potential for making us happy.
    ThailandTom
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited October 2012

    Who has the power, the one who asks the question or the one who answers?

    I think the power is in the exchange:

    image

    PrairieGhostI_AM_THAT
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited October 2012

    Haha. No, you don't, no problem.

    Ok, a man locked in a room is going to make a very intense study of lockpicking, but that doesn't mean locks have anything to do with ontological truth.

    What we want to know about the universe is based on our suffering. Even the very concept of ontology is based on suffering - 'does x exist' means 'can I cling to it and be safe from harm?'.

    Science is useful, but basing science on what is observable and repeatable places a limit on the depth of understanding it can realise, and thus a limit on its potential for making us happy.

    Ahh. See, I don't think so. Curiosity isn't based on suffering IMO. You don't have to be suffering to wonder what stars are made of.

    Though I absolutely agree that science by its very nature is limited and in turn can place limits on our understanding.
    Sile
  • Sile:
    I think the power is in the exchange--kind of like, you know:
    Nicely done.

    Keep exchanging glances with the universe and eventually what's yours is mine. :p
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    RebeccaS:
    Ahh. See, I don't think so. Curiosity isn't based on suffering IMO. You don't have to be suffering to wonder what stars are made of.
    'Based on' was too strong. Biased by.

    Otherwise we wouldn't have vast amounts of data about what happens when you pour cosmetic creams into a rabbit's eye, and no solution for climate change.

  • SileSile Veteran
    edited October 2012

    Keep exchanging glances with the universe and eventually what's yours is mine. :p

    Or I just burn out my eyeballs.

    RebeccaSPrairieGhost
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Well, to have a solution we'd have to find out exactly what is causing it. We've established that the temperature of the world is changing, but we still don't know exactly why. We have lots of theories, some are more popular than others, some blow others right out of the water... But a solution first requires understanding of the problem.

    In my biased opinion, it's far more interesting than putting cream in anyone's eye :lol: but we can't all be cosmologists and astrophysicists. I don't think that the bias of our personal interests influences the quality of our data, though yes, like you said, probably the quantity.
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