Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Gravity

edited October 2012 in General Banter
Gravity is strange indeed. Particals are attracted to each other. These particals have no discrimination. If we being the universe are all attracted to each other than sooner or later we will all be one. I'm not sure where I"m going with this but it popped up in meditation. If anyone has input, your wisdom would be much appreciated.
«1

Comments

  • We ARE all one. It is the ego mind that makes us feel separate.
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    Colome said:


    Gravity is strange indeed. Particals are attracted to each other.

    These particals have no discrimination. If we being the universe are all attracted to each other than sooner or later we will all be one.

    Any more strange than any other force?

    I think the current understanding is that the universe is accelerating in its expansion.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I think you should give up meditating for a while. Or at least certainly, attach less importance to flighty thoughts. This is all in the realms of imponderables, or to put it another way - "How does this help my practice right now?"
    ThailandTomlobster
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Zero said:

    I think the current understanding is that the universe is accelerating in its expansion.

    Yes, and they've invented dark energy to explain it. ;)
    Zero
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    This popped up on my Facebook account this morning:



    RebeccaSThailandTom
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Yeah I don't know that they think the universe is infinite... Could be wrong there though. They're seeing that the universe is expanding outwards. Galaxies that were nearer to us are rushing away from us, galaxies that are twice as far away from us are moving away twice as fast, the galaxies three times away from us are moving three times as fast. My question is wtf is the universe expanding into? :lol:

    Current science is definitely leaning towards a kind of oneness theory. Some physicists are saying that every hydrogen atom is the same hydrogen atom. Literally the same. Not like when you buy two identical tennis balls and say they are the same, but actually the same atom. Which is pretty interesting. Then there is entanglement. I think their theory for why it is is incorrect, but what they have observed, or what they haven't observed but have calculated, is that if you rotate one molecule, the same molecule on the other side of the universe will also rotate. And other cool stuff like that.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    This popped up on my Facebook account this morning:

    I watched a TV programme the other day and it mentioned 50% of Americans were creationists - is that really true?
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    RebeccaS said:

    My question is wtf is the universe expanding into? :lol:

    Yes, that boggles my mind! :D
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @PedanticPorpoise, well, I don't know the numbers, but I would say a majority believe in Creationism or that God created evolution.
  • RebeccaSRebeccaS Veteran
    edited October 2012



    I watched a TV programme the other day and it mentioned 50% of Americans were creationists - is that really true?

    Apparently there are two definitions of a creationist. The one I think of which is the people who believe the world was created ten thousand years ago, and the one where it's just people who think God created the world but still support science and evolutionary theory.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    RebeccaS said:



    I watched a TV programme the other day and it mentioned 50% of Americans were creationists - is that really true?

    Apparently there are two definitions of a creationist. The one I think of which is the people who believe the world was created ten thousand years ago, and the one where it's just people who think God created the world but still support science and evolutionary theory.
    I think creationists believe the Bible is literally true, while the second type believe in Intelligent Design, ie God started it all off and then let nature take it's course.

    Sorry, off topic. :o
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    I don't think that's truly off-topic. Personally, although I used to teach evolution in my earth science course, I'm more on the side of Intelligent Design.
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    RebeccaS said:


    My question is wtf is the universe expanding into? :lol:

    Very broadly, if the universe is infinitely large then it's not expanding into anything as it is already infinitely large.

    If it is not infinite then it's proposed that it's folded such that if you travel in any one direction you will eventually reach where you started - no centre, no edge - only space time - we are hampered in that we are unable to step outside the finite universe model to see what could be there... though there are branches of mathematics that explore different types of logic which could hint at a universe with 'different' rules - that said, it is proposed within the context of M-theory where a 'universe' is not so much an all encompassing affair.

    General relativity broadly holds that the galaxies (matter) are not expanding, drifting etc - they can be considered 'stationary' - it is the space time in between that is stretching... so with the passage of time (or change in entropic states) - the space between everything is bigger relative to eachother.
    ThailandTom
  • Can somenody please explain to me that theory or known fact about if you stood on the moon time on your wrist watch would be different due to the size of the moon and therefore it's gravity?
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    Gravitational time dilation - your wrist watch would be running faster on the moon relative to here
  • Zero said:

    Gravitational time dilation - your wrist watch would be running faster on the moon relative to here

    Cheers @zero
  • thank you i find much humor in some statements and much wisdom in others, some both. my question now is if the universe is expanding, and gravity is pulling everything together, which will eventually win? will we all be ripped apart or condensed into a ball. haha [perhaps such questions are irrelevant. Maybe i should find the right question to ask. Much harder than finding an answer i believe.
  • Colome said:

    thank you i find much humor in some statements and much wisdom in others, some both. my question now is if the universe is expanding, and gravity is pulling everything together, which will eventually win? will we all be ripped apart or condensed into a ball. haha [perhaps such questions are irrelevant. Maybe i should find the right question to ask. Much harder than finding an answer i believe.

    Barely any of the top physcacists will be able to help you with that, let alone people on a Buddhist related forum. Maybe you should try directing these heavily science based questions at, a science related forum?
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Zero said:

    RebeccaS said:


    My question is wtf is the universe expanding into? :lol:

    Very broadly, if the universe is infinitely large then it's not expanding into anything as it is already infinitely large.

    If it is not infinite then it's proposed that it's folded such that if you travel in any one direction you will eventually reach where you started - no centre, no edge - only space time - we are hampered in that we are unable to step outside the finite universe model to see what could be there... though there are branches of mathematics that explore different types of logic which could hint at a universe with 'different' rules - that said, it is proposed within the context of M-theory where a 'universe' is not so much an all encompassing affair.
    Interesting stuff. It seems counter-intuitive that something could be both infinite and expanding at the same time.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    I don't think that's truly off-topic. Personally, although I used to teach evolution in my earth science course, I'm more on the side of Intelligent Design.

    ID certainly makes more sense than creationism.
  • vinlyn said:

    I don't think that's truly off-topic. Personally, although I used to teach evolution in my earth science course, I'm more on the side of Intelligent Design.

    Read Dawkins, then. You'll change your mind.
  • music said:

    vinlyn said:

    I don't think that's truly off-topic. Personally, although I used to teach evolution in my earth science course, I'm more on the side of Intelligent Design.

    Read Dawkins, then. You'll change your mind.
    Dawkins is such an asshole :lol:
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited October 2012
    music said:

    vinlyn said:

    I don't think that's truly off-topic. Personally, although I used to teach evolution in my earth science course, I'm more on the side of Intelligent Design.

    Read Dawkins, then. You'll change your mind.
    I've read some of his stuff and also watched some video of him talking. It really didn't change my mind.

    You have to remember that I went through college in a geosciences program specializing in paleontology. Much of my time was spent studying aspects of evolution, particularly as related to invertebrates of the Paleozoic. As far as I knew, all of my professors, including those who specifically taught evolution, were all members of a Christian church and fairly regular church-goers. None of them taught ID, they stuck to the science of it, but all of them believed in God. None of "us" saw any divide between evolution (or other geologic processes) and the works of God.

    And, just for the record, what I believe in, in terms of ID, is not as it is described by "Intelligent Designers", just as my view of God is not as described by many who preach Christianity.

    RebeccaS
  • Could you explain your version of ID, then? You can pm me if you feel awkward.
  • RebeccaS said:

    music said:

    vinlyn said:

    I don't think that's truly off-topic. Personally, although I used to teach evolution in my earth science course, I'm more on the side of Intelligent Design.

    Read Dawkins, then. You'll change your mind.
    Dawkins is such an asshole :lol:
    Yeah, but he has superior intelligence.
    RebeccaSDairyLama
  • music said:

    Could you explain your version of ID, then? You can pm me if you feel awkward.

    I am curious to hear this as well please :) A lot of the time people do not believe in evolution because they cannot see it happening before their own eyes, it is too much of a gradual and slow process for one human life to actually watch before them. We operate in seconds and minutes and have a pretty damn short life.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    vinlyn said:


    music said:

    Could you explain your version of ID, then? You can pm me if you feel awkward.

    To begin with, if you don't believe in God, then what I believe is irrelevant. And I do agree with Rebecca. When I have watched videos of Dawkins, he has been an asshole...every time. If he can't figure out how to be non-offensive, then I'm not to convinced about anything else he figures out.

    In a way, I actually use what I consider to be a Buddhist way of thinking to come to my conclusion. Test what I see. Determine whether it is logical. Some evolutionary channels may have been rethought since my time at university in the 70s, but even if it has, the gist of the teaching remains the same.

    One of paleontology's earliest question (beyond simply identifying invertebrate paleontological specimens was how life began on the primordial earth. The first real work of promise in that field was by Stanley Miller. To put it very simply, Miller took some of the materials that were thought to have been around in that primordial earth, introduced electricity, and amino acids developed. Coincidence. Okay, but I can buy that. Those amino acids developed into primitive life forms, particularly -- perhaps the first -- being stromatolites of blue=green algae in colonies. Okay, I can believe that, too.

    And then we get into evolution and natural selection...which generally I believe in. But the logic fails me that it's all just a series of mere coincidences. That we went from blue-green algae stromatolites to the iris of your eye, and the electrical system of your heart, and your highly complex brain, etc.

    Keep in mind, that I am also not a believer in the God described by most (for example) Christians. I don't believe in a micro-manager God.

    I've probably read as much as anyone on this forum about evolution, in my earlier years was an avid collector of invertebrate fossils from the Cambrian through Devonian Periods, taught evolution in middle and high school (and taught it by the book), and I think out-and-out Creationists (and I have personally known a few) are living in a make-believe fantasy world of the Old Testament. And, I remain open-minded...but I know what I believe at this point of time.

  • Einstein said matter bends space. Space tells matter where to go.

    I wondered the same as you. If the focus of Buddhism is the mind, then what about all the physical laws of the universe. Do they have anything to do with suffering?
  • We are all NONE.
    anatta, non-self.
    there is nothing n nobody there.......
    poptart said:

    We ARE all one. It is the ego mind that makes us feel separate.

    Jeffrey
  • hermitwin said:

    We are all NONE.
    anatta, non-self.
    there is nothing n nobody there.......


    poptart said:

    We ARE all one. It is the ego mind that makes us feel separate.

    I'm going to tell that to the next political survey phone peddler. "nobody is here"
    RebeccaSColome
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    hermitwin said:

    We are all NONE.
    anatta, non-self.
    there is nothing n nobody there.......

    I hear this a lot. I still have not heard a logical reasoning behind it though... Something typed that post and it wasn't me, lol.

    Colome said:

    Gravity is strange indeed. Particals are attracted to each other. These particals have no discrimination. If we being the universe are all attracted to each other than sooner or later we will all be one. I'm not sure where I"m going with this but it popped up in meditation. If anyone has input, your wisdom would be much appreciated.

    Physically, it sounds like you're talking about a big crunch, spiritually, it sounds like you're talking about the illusion of being seperate entities.

    I sometimes wonder what the shortest distance between objects is but it's like trying to find the smallest increment in time and quite possibly it's the very same thing. There is no smallest increment of time because a moment, like a whole, can be divided infinitely.

    I'm just babbling uselessly now though.


    Colome
  • ourself said:

    hermitwin said:

    We are all NONE.
    anatta, non-self.
    there is nothing n nobody there.......

    I hear this a lot. I still have not heard a logical reasoning behind it though... Something typed that post and it wasn't me, lol.

    Colome said:

    Gravity is strange indeed. Particals are attracted to each other. These particals have no discrimination. If we being the universe are all attracted to each other than sooner or later we will all be one. I'm not sure where I"m going with this but it popped up in meditation. If anyone has input, your wisdom would be much appreciated.

    Physically, it sounds like you're talking about a big crunch, spiritually, it sounds like you're talking about the illusion of being seperate entities.

    I sometimes wonder what the shortest distance between objects is but it's like trying to find the smallest increment in time and quite possibly it's the very same thing. There is no smallest increment of time because a moment, like a whole, can be divided infinitely.

    I'm just babbling uselessly now though.


    No I understand your 'babbling'. I have read from very good teachers that scientists can keep looking for as long as they like, but they will never find the end or the smallest/largest etc, yet they keep looking. The quantum universe is very alien to us and we do not even understand it fully, there is more than likely things going on smaller than that, yet we are humans and intune with what we can observe. We can create instruments to observe things in a certain way, but in the end it will lead on and on and on, or this is my opinion.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited October 2012
    I see it that way too @Tom.

    Ever notice that the smaller the increment to be studied, the bigger the apparatus needed to study it?

    We need the whole universe to understand fully the smallest aspect of it.
    JeffreyColome
  • well on the question of physical and spiritual, what is the difference? Are we not living in one flowing spirit, one mass of objects creating one moment creating one life. Are not all things relevant to the physical world relevant to the spiritual world? I'm not trying to sound condescending, i'm honestly interested in your retort.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    Colome said:

    well on the question of physical and spiritual, what is the difference? Are we not living in one flowing spirit, one mass of objects creating one moment creating one life. Are not all things relevant to the physical world relevant to the spiritual world? I'm not trying to sound condescending, i'm honestly interested in your retort.

    They are just two sides of the dance of emptiness becoming form and form becoming emptiness...

    To me, there isn't too much difference except that the physical takes up space. That which has yet to manifest still exists right now in its potential form. When the conditions are right for it, a thing will manifest in space/time. Until then, it stays hidden.

    Colome
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited October 2012

    Zero said:

    RebeccaS said:


    My question is wtf is the universe expanding into? :lol:

    Very broadly, if the universe is infinitely large then it's not expanding into anything as it is already infinitely large.

    If it is not infinite then it's proposed that it's folded such that if you travel in any one direction you will eventually reach where you started - no centre, no edge - only space time - we are hampered in that we are unable to step outside the finite universe model to see what could be there... though there are branches of mathematics that explore different types of logic which could hint at a universe with 'different' rules - that said, it is proposed within the context of M-theory where a 'universe' is not so much an all encompassing affair.
    Interesting stuff. It seems counter-intuitive that something could be both infinite and expanding at the same time.
    Infinity is a process, not a designation. The definition means there is no ending to said process even if there was a beginning.

    To me, a beginning makes no sense.

    Theoretically, an eternal process could give rise to an infinite amount of infinite processes.

  • The idea that there was a beginning and an end is equally as ridiculous as the idea that there is neither. Both may never be proven and both are abstract in thought. Is the world cause and effect as some believe or does the universe sumerize itself in events that just are and were always meant to be?
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    ourself said:

    Infinity is a process, not a designation.

    I'm not sure I get that. Infinity can apply to space, number, quantity, time etc etc.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited October 2012

    ourself said:

    Infinity is a process, not a designation.
    I'm not sure I get that. Infinity can apply to space, number, quantity, time etc etc.

    Exactly... It can apply to space, numbers or time but it isn't a certain point or quantity. This is why we can divide a whole infinitely but we cannot divide a whole by infinity.

    It is not a number but a set of numbers.


  • We can determine as N/x as x approaches infinity is zero
  • Jeffrey said:

    We can determine as N/x as x approaches infinity is zero

    A fixed amount of something divided into an infinite number of pieces would never reach zero, the pieces would just continue to become smaller and smaller. At some point for humans and our computers, it would effectively be zero. :)
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited October 2012
    It's the limit as x approaches infinity. A little different. That just means that more divisions smaller and smaller pieces.
  • Jeffrey said:

    It's the limit as x approaches infinity. A little different. That just means that more divisions smaller and smaller pieces.

    huh? I am not sure what you are trying to convey. I wasn't disagreeing or correcting... just putting it in less math terms.
  • No I'm not disagreeing. I'm just putting it in math terms. :)
  • If you think about it you are correct. Otherwise if we divided subatomic particles smaller and smaller there would be nothing left to have attractive forces (or repelling) to constitute a interdependent structured universe. So dividing infinitely must be merely a thought experiment. That assumes that there is no fundamental and indivisible particle(s) that everything is made of. If there are fundamental particles then it is impossible to divide them by inifinitely small pieces.
  • :) Gotcha... carry on :)
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7...??? On to the biggest of the big if it exists and hasn't stopped growing.

    1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, 1/7... On to the smallest of the small. Which I'd guess depends entirely on the biggest of the big... I'd also guess this is where the "infinitely approaching zero" comes in... We have to remember that this is just the regressive perspective... There is also the "infinitely approaching the biggest of the big" viewpoint.

  • I've been spending time on a couple of physics forums lately and this is a better disussion than any I found there. True, I had to bite my toungue when someone suggested that Richard Dawkins is more intelligent than me, but I suppose it's possible. I doubt he's more intelligent than most people here, going on his inability to understand or properly research religion.

    The OP states that mass atracts mass (or behaves in this way). This is not known. It is perfectly possible that mass repels mass. There is even a quite well-developed model by a French physicist. It is not a settled question and it may never be, since the two effects may be indistinguishable.

    Doesn't make it any less weird though.





  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Florian said:

    It is perfectly possible that mass repels mass.

    I think I'm right in saying that dark energy is a repulsive force acting in opposition to gravity.
  • tmottestmottes Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Jeffrey said:

    If you think about it you are correct. Otherwise if we divided subatomic particles smaller and smaller there would be nothing left to have attractive forces (or repelling) to constitute a interdependent structured universe. So dividing infinitely must be merely a thought experiment. That assumes that there is no fundamental and indivisible particle(s) that everything is made of. If there are fundamental particles then it is impossible to divide them by inifinitely small pieces.

    Could be a thought experiment... or it could point to something non-conceptual (undefined). I have always thought that something is special about both zero and infinity: they seemed linked in some way. If I divide something into an infinite number of parts, that thing becomes nothing? If I divide something into no parts (1 part would be the whole), then I eventually reach infinity? Perhaps I am limited in my math understanding, but it seems like these two ends point to each other. Here is a little continuum I put together

    X/0 ... X/0.25 X/0.5 X/1 X/2 X/4 ... X/(infinity)
    = = = = = = =
    (infinity) four times X twice X X half of X a fourth of X 0
    In short if you separate something into everything, you get nothing. If you separate something into nothing, you get everything :) To divide is to separate... if I look at reality in smaller and smaller parts, I end up with nothing. If I look at reality in bigger and bigger parts (eventually something beyond the whole), I end up with everything. I might be completely off base...

    Florian said:

    It is perfectly possible that mass repels mass.

    I think I'm right in saying that dark energy is a repulsive force acting in opposition to gravity.

    You are correct, currently the force that is accelerating the expansion of the universe is called dark energy; scientists don't really know what it is. It might not actually be a force per se. It could be that one of the forces (perhaps gravity itself) behaves differently under different circumstances; similar to how Einstein showed that immense gravity bends the space-time continuum. Or similar to how the scale at which we look at things changes its apparent behaviour... ie quantum mechanics.
    Jeffrey
Sign In or Register to comment.