Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
@LeonBasin It's not Buddhism if it's just meditation and mindfulness. Maybe the article author doesn't know anything about Buddhism. Russia has the BEST ice cream! Why would you leave the land of the World's Best Ice Cream to come....here?
@LeonBasin It's not Buddhism if it's just meditation and mindfulness. Maybe the article author doesn't know anything about Buddhism. Russia has the BEST ice cream! Why would you leave the land of the World's Best Ice Cream to come....here?
Maybe he doesn't!~:) And I came here for many reasons. One of them being... They draft you to War when you are 16. Racism for being Jewish is another.
Very good reasons. I didn't realize they drafted people at 16. But you can get out of it if you're a student, can't you? I have a friend who did everything she could to keep her son out of the army. She enrolled him in university, and borrowed money to do it. It worked, he never had to serve.
1. The American teachers like Kornfield, Fronsdal, Levine, etc., teach much more than meditation. The 8-Fold Path and Four Noble truths are central to their teachings.
2. People might get the impression that they just teach meditation because they market themselves as "meditation teachers." I think this is a fair representation because many people go to them primarily to learn meditation. Furthermore, they are distinguishing themselves from the pre-existing Asian Buddhist temples, which I think is fine.
3. In my opinion, many/most of the "Asian" Buddhist centers under-emphasize meditation!
4. Many Americans/Westerners are specifically interested in meditation and specifically turned off by anything that seems like faith, ritual or supernatural, and I think it's okay to tailor Buddhism to fit that cultural predisposition. (I also thinks this fits in with the Buddha's teachings!)
5. The many different forms of Buddhism tend to emphasize some things, and de-emphasize other things. Why should we have special disdain for these teachers who choose to emphasize meditation? Why not have equal disdain for the Buddhists who like to chant or prostrate?
6. If meditation is taught correctly, specifically, using the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, then I think that all other key aspects of Buddha's teachings are either being directly taught, OR the practice of the Four Foundations will lead to realizations of the Buddha's teachings.
In short: 1. An emphasis on meditation still qualifies it as Buddhism, 2. The correct teaching of meditation by itself still qualifies as Buddhism, 3. Even if it didn't qualify as Buddhism to us, I don't think it's such a bad thing.
thanks, Buddhajunkie. My question was, why do many people go to these teachers primarily to learn meditation? Why not go for the whole ball of wax? Are these, perhaps, people who are studying Buddhism at home, or at a sangha where meditation isn't taught (I've been to some of those)? Or are these people who are only interested in meditation? I think this is one of the questions the OP is getting at; is there a tendency now to dismember Buddhism and teach only secular techniques, and if so, what does that mean for the future of Buddhism?
Do you know if Kornfield, or any of the others, do mix Buddhism basics in with their meditation instruction? In, say, a workshop or retreat that is specifically for meditation?
The aforementioned american vipassanists teach the 4NT and 8FP and make many references to the Pali cannon and Buddha.
Many newbs seek only meditation because they are unaware of how it connects with other aspects of Buddhism. In fact, this is how I discovered Buddhism-- through meditation first.
These teachers understand this, which is why they will tell novices that they are "meditation" teachers.
So if these teachers are going to be criticized, it should be for the exact OPPOSITE reasons given here: They often say they are merely meditation teachers, when in fact they teach Buddhism!
So evangelical Christians have good reason to fear someone just teaching meditation!
@Rich9 Hi dude, sorry to hear you were unable to be provided with satisfactory answers to your understandable questions on mixed sex retreats/study groups within Triratna/FWBO.
It is far more to do with providing people with an environment which is conducive to trust, openness and fraternity, enabling people to "go deeper" into their practice and understanding of The Dharma. Their deepening of their level of going to refuge (from social to provisional, to effective and finally absolute) will benefit all in the Sangha by creating a more fertile ground for individuals to develop in whichever way suits them best.
I go on a lot of mixed-sex retreats, as well as being part of a male study group - daft as it might sound (and I was so opposed to this idea), but it actually works!! In the same way as sometimes we all enjoy a "lads/girly/gay/delete as appropriate" night out with our nearest and dearest, we also need to mix it up the rest of the time. This little thing called the middle way come into play at this point, lol... ;-)
In my study group, us guys can be open and supportive of each other in a manner that goes beyond brotherhood, closer than close, and that makes for some amazing discussions, I can tell you... It really inspires you, but that is the nature of Dharma-Katha of course, to be inspired! You are totally right, suggesting that it was "to avoid distraction" is a non-sensical idea. And its also nothing to do with the level of intellectual cut and thrust, or any differences between the sexes, far more to do with feeling that you are amongst those that you identify with on the most basic and fundamental levels i.e. gender/sexual orientation. That being said, I'm bi, and there is a chap in my group who is gay... None of us even notice or care, we are far to busy just loving each member for what they uniquely bring to the collective friendship, like the three Arahants in the forest... cant remember the Sutta name, but its a belter!
Just read this forum and thought I'd give you the answer I think your question deserved. Hope you all are well on the path, whichever one you chose...
Who cares who else is at the retreat? What difference would it make if the retreat is single-gender or not? If you're practicing and studying, the rest doesn't matter.
What was the "going further" about?
Hmmm, have you checked out the thread regarding People of Color ONLY sanghas -- under the category of "Modern Buddhism" ?? I think you'll see several aspects of why these things can sometimes matter....
This would seem the thread most related to NewBuddhist . . . My teacher paid all my expenses. If I managed to sneak in paying, I considered this quite an achievement. So I feel Buddhism will be taken more seriously when it fulfils the concerns of materialists. Other important developments. Cultural form will be adapted. For example the recitation of sutra in Hebrew, Tibetan or Celtic is of limited value if these are unintelligible to you. Activity based meditations will become more prevalent. Cultural superstitions will be dropped and Western superstitions replace them. Brain scan verification of enlightenment. The sooner the better. I am also hoping for free meals and accommodation for the spiritually and materially impoverished. Monks should be able to sustain themselves and a community, that would be an impressive demonstration of the dharma. :clap:
There is no way of knowing the future of anything-- even a weather forecast more than a few days in advance is usually wrong. That is a fundamental part of human condition. Dealing with that impossibility to know is kind of what Buddhism is all about
Comments
Russia has the BEST ice cream! Why would you leave the land of the World's Best Ice Cream to come....here?
And I came here for many reasons.
One of them being... They draft you to War when you are 16.
Racism for being Jewish is another.
Re: The Emphasis on Meditation
1. The American teachers like Kornfield, Fronsdal, Levine, etc., teach much more than meditation. The 8-Fold Path and Four Noble truths are central to their teachings.
2. People might get the impression that they just teach meditation because they market themselves as "meditation teachers." I think this is a fair representation because many people go to them primarily to learn meditation. Furthermore, they are distinguishing themselves from the pre-existing Asian Buddhist temples, which I think is fine.
3. In my opinion, many/most of the "Asian" Buddhist centers under-emphasize meditation!
4. Many Americans/Westerners are specifically interested in meditation and specifically turned off by anything that seems like faith, ritual or supernatural, and I think it's okay to tailor Buddhism to fit that cultural predisposition. (I also thinks this fits in with the Buddha's teachings!)
5. The many different forms of Buddhism tend to emphasize some things, and de-emphasize other things. Why should we have special disdain for these teachers who choose to emphasize meditation? Why not have equal disdain for the Buddhists who like to chant or prostrate?
6. If meditation is taught correctly, specifically, using the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, then I think that all other key aspects of Buddha's teachings are either being directly taught, OR the practice of the Four Foundations will lead to realizations of the Buddha's teachings.
In short: 1. An emphasis on meditation still qualifies it as Buddhism, 2. The correct teaching of meditation by itself still qualifies as Buddhism, 3. Even if it didn't qualify as Buddhism to us, I don't think it's such a bad thing.
Do you know if Kornfield, or any of the others, do mix Buddhism basics in with their meditation instruction? In, say, a workshop or retreat that is specifically for meditation?
The aforementioned american vipassanists teach the 4NT and 8FP and make many references to the Pali cannon and Buddha.
Many newbs seek only meditation because they are unaware of how it connects with other aspects of Buddhism. In fact, this is how I discovered Buddhism-- through meditation first.
These teachers understand this, which is why they will tell novices that they are "meditation" teachers.
So if these teachers are going to be criticized, it should be for the exact OPPOSITE reasons given here: They often say they are merely meditation teachers, when in fact they teach Buddhism!
So evangelical Christians have good reason to fear someone just teaching meditation!
Hi dude, sorry to hear you were unable to be provided with satisfactory answers to your understandable questions on mixed sex retreats/study groups within Triratna/FWBO.
It is far more to do with providing people with an environment which is conducive to trust, openness and fraternity, enabling people to "go deeper" into their practice and understanding of The Dharma. Their deepening of their level of going to refuge (from social to provisional, to effective and finally absolute) will benefit all in the Sangha by creating a more fertile ground for individuals to develop in whichever way suits them best.
I go on a lot of mixed-sex retreats, as well as being part of a male study group - daft as it might sound (and I was so opposed to this idea), but it actually works!! In the same way as sometimes we all enjoy a "lads/girly/gay/delete as appropriate" night out with our nearest and dearest, we also need to mix it up the rest of the time. This little thing called the middle way come into play at this point, lol... ;-)
In my study group, us guys can be open and supportive of each other in a manner that goes beyond brotherhood, closer than close, and that makes for some amazing discussions, I can tell you... It really inspires you, but that is the nature of Dharma-Katha of course, to be inspired! You are totally right, suggesting that it was "to avoid distraction" is a non-sensical idea. And its also nothing to do with the level of intellectual cut and thrust, or any differences between the sexes, far more to do with feeling that you are amongst those that you identify with on the most basic and fundamental levels i.e. gender/sexual orientation. That being said, I'm bi, and there is a chap in my group who is gay... None of us even notice or care, we are far to busy just loving each member for what they uniquely bring to the collective friendship, like the three Arahants in the forest... cant remember the Sutta name, but its a belter!
Just read this forum and thought I'd give you the answer I think your question deserved. Hope you all are well on the path, whichever one you chose...
Jay (Triratna Manchester Buddhist Centre) x
My teacher paid all my expenses. If I managed to sneak in paying, I considered this quite an achievement. So I feel Buddhism will be taken more seriously when it fulfils the concerns of materialists.
Other important developments. Cultural form will be adapted. For example the recitation of sutra in Hebrew, Tibetan or Celtic is of limited value if these are unintelligible to you. Activity based meditations will become more prevalent. Cultural superstitions will be dropped and Western superstitions replace them. Brain scan verification of enlightenment. The sooner the better. I am also hoping for free meals and accommodation for the spiritually and materially impoverished. Monks should be able to sustain themselves and a community, that would be an impressive demonstration of the dharma. :clap:
There is no way of knowing the future of anything-- even a weather forecast more than a few days in advance is usually wrong. That is a fundamental part of human condition. Dealing with that impossibility to know is kind of what Buddhism is all about