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For "Secular" Buddhists: On Nihilism
MindGate
United States Veteran
A question posed to the 'Stephen Bachelor' Buddhists, Secular Buddhists, etc, among us:
While rejecting the metaphysical and supernatural bits of Buddhism (although to the extent of something such as rebirth being "supernatural" or beyond science is debatable, I will assume from a secular standpoint that it is), how does one keep themselves from becoming nihilists (even yet, existential nihilists), a concept the Buddha was full-heartedly against? Without the belief in a continuation of consciousness or karma, whatever interpretation of rebirth you wish, or other such beliefs, what stops you from becoming nihilistic? Or, if you are nihilistic, how could you defend that belief to be part of "Buddhism" when it was a concept so inherently against what the Buddha taught (to my knowledge)?
Thank you.
[As for some background information from where this question is coming from, I have been becoming a more cynical individual since my departure from Buddhism over the passed two years. I've also grown to become an existential nihilist in most aspects of my life and view of the world. While I do believe that existential nihilism is the correct view of the world (at least at this point in my life), I am not at all happy about it and am desperately looking for other answers. It is an idea that has caused me great distress, and coupled with many other things, is part of the reason I have begun a long descent into depression. I am hoping that delving into Buddhism again will bring light to my now dark world.]
While rejecting the metaphysical and supernatural bits of Buddhism (although to the extent of something such as rebirth being "supernatural" or beyond science is debatable, I will assume from a secular standpoint that it is), how does one keep themselves from becoming nihilists (even yet, existential nihilists), a concept the Buddha was full-heartedly against? Without the belief in a continuation of consciousness or karma, whatever interpretation of rebirth you wish, or other such beliefs, what stops you from becoming nihilistic? Or, if you are nihilistic, how could you defend that belief to be part of "Buddhism" when it was a concept so inherently against what the Buddha taught (to my knowledge)?
Thank you.
[As for some background information from where this question is coming from, I have been becoming a more cynical individual since my departure from Buddhism over the passed two years. I've also grown to become an existential nihilist in most aspects of my life and view of the world. While I do believe that existential nihilism is the correct view of the world (at least at this point in my life), I am not at all happy about it and am desperately looking for other answers. It is an idea that has caused me great distress, and coupled with many other things, is part of the reason I have begun a long descent into depression. I am hoping that delving into Buddhism again will bring light to my now dark world.]
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Comments
Only you (well, that is a lie) would respond with such an unhelpful comment such as that. Rather than responding with a one-liner that doesn't actually answer the question and points posed, why don't you go more in-depth? Do you mean that secular Buddhists do believe in literal rebirth? Or, do you mean that secular Buddhists do not fall into nihilism? And, do you know what I mean by secular? I do not mean a non-sectarian Buddhist. I am speaking of the Sam Harris/Stephen Bachelor "Buddhist Atheist" type Buddhists. Please do try to be more helpful if you bother responding.
Fake it.
In other words practice the falsities until they take on their own reality or truth. You can not be convinced by argument or mental dialog. The day I decided to choose 'meaning' or practice over nihilism was the way to transcend both emptiness and chaos and order and meaning. If something like prostrations is impossible for you, then maybe at least do something to help others suffering . . .
Emptiness is Form and Form is Emptiness
might be a good point to begin . . . .
Secondly, how are you defining nihilism? Miriam-Websters defines it as, "a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless; and a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths". It would seem to me that anyone that has that viewpoint is simply not a Buddhist.
Because we secular Buddhists are on such a wide continuum, I can't speak for secular Buddhists. But as for myself, I believe Buddha was a brilliant teacher who taught compassion, a moral system, and the means to alleviate suffering. I do not believe that Buddhism encompasses all that is important in this world or the next (if there is a "next"). I see Buddhism to be an effective philosophy of life for some, and an effective religion for others, although I don't believe there is one "right" religion, but there are some "wrong" religions. I am open-minded about the aspects of Buddhism that cannot be proven, but I don't just swallow everything, and I try to be humble enough to realize that almost anything which I believe might just be not reality.
What a meaningless, trivial life that is, in my eyes.
We must each answer, what makes life worth living? Remember, the ultimate goal of classic Buddhism is Nirvana, or the extinguishing of the self, the unique consciousness that is you. Somehow, the question of why this doesn't amount to nihilism doesn't crop up very often. Probably because people don't believe they'll ever make it, not if they're honest with themselves. Be good enough so you're reborn as a human in pretty good circumstances, and you can sit around and talk about how great it would be, to be Enlightened, for another lifetime.
Here's the open secret to Buddhism. People talk a good game, but they don't really want to be Enlightened, because that would mean letting go of all those fun things you're doing right now. You'd drop what you're doing and join some temple and be a monk and go for it seriously, not dabble with it like almost everyone does.
And that's OK. This life we're living right now is, in my mind, all there is for me. For the person inside this body. That makes it a precious thing. I don't have countless multiple lifetimes to screw around. That's hardly nihilism.
Does that begin to answer your question?
As time goes on, the practise unfolds perfectly without this particular nebulous being needing to believe in anything. In 40 years of sitting I do not remember belief or dis belief ever being requested of me in meditation.
I say this because perhaps the focus on such questions for you might only be a distraction on the path to the cessation of suffering. Perhaps faith is just leaving such questions for ones meditation to address if and when they ever might need to be. Perhaps there may not be a spiritual need for you to possess the answers to what will eventually unfold.
Perhaps that whatever needs such a possession is the only real darkness in your world?
I don’t honestly believe every magical nonsense in Buddhism: there is so much nonsense in other religions why would ours be any different from theirs?
But I can believe in practice; that is in meditation and in keeping the basic precepts.
This practice is meaningful. I’m reading in Dogen’s Shobogenzo now (just finished chapter 1). Keeping precepts (the gradual approach) is essential. We need to do it for our meditation (the sudden approach) to get going.
When our practice is consistent and whole hearted, some “magic” is going to happen; but this magic is awakening to the Way.
I’ll just throw in a quote, which gives you an idea of what I’m reading at the moment:
What a ridiculous thing to type.. people don't really want to be completely free of suffering.. right.. that makes sense.
we love the devil we know . . .
it may not make sense but how many of us recognise the human condition in such behaviour?
. . . ridiculous it may be,
. . . familiar?
Because enlightenment carries a steep price. You have to let go of what you are now to become something else, and we want to keep our old lives. We want just enough enlightenment to be special without letting go of our cherished ego. We don't want to pay the price, so we wade around a bit in the Dharma instead of jumping in head first and letting go of everything we cling to in life.
I call it being human. We set our goal way up on top of a mountain and claim it's almost impossible to reach, and that lets us off the hook. We don't really expect to reach it, personally. Only the rare special person can actually do that. That's what I mean by my statement. What's stopping any of us from being enlightened today? All you have to do is understand the Dharma. It's not difficult to understand. The Buddha gave us the 4 Noble Truths and they're simple enough, a child can understand the words.
If not now, then when?
Nihilism is interesting because we generally only ascribe to this philosophy when convenient.
But its rather easy. For there to be nothing there has to be something. Thus nothing is also a construction, fabrication.
In meditation one can access deep state of nothingness. And even these states can be seen to be fabrication, thus relinquished.
Buddhadharma is to be lived. If we cling to wrong views such as nihilism, then that conditions how we view the world, which in turn constructs our interactions/relationships etc.
True buddhadharma begins with having the correct view, which brings investigation into reality, which in turn allows for letting go and freedom.
All views have a function. Be it rebirth or emptiness. They are ways of seeing which bring letting go. There are no ontological truths or objective truths.
Whether we affirm or reject certain parts of Buddhism is irrelevant. Buddhism is an idea. The real Buddhism is the four yana journey that flowers when we are ready to face ourselves nakedly. This is a natural human procession, which requires deep inquiry and intimacy.
My two cents.
This secular Buddhism is an excuse for people to simply hold on to their views about the world instead of challenging their delusions.
Until then I do my meditation and study every day. Isn't that what we are supposed to do?
We also have the example of sangha members and others who uphold the dharma as living examples.
Personally, I hold fast to the 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. Any further teachings that do not either reinforce these or expand on one aspect are up for critical examination before I believe they are true teachings of Buddha.
Just because somebody said that Buddha performed miracles doesn't mean I accept that. Why would he need to fly for example? Do we need flying to overcome suffering? It makes little sense to bother interjecting magic when the dharma speaks for itself without the bells and whistles.
Supernatural seems to me a funny word because either the conditions allow for a thing to happen or they don't. If something happens, it happenes naturally.
I accept karma and I accept rebirth but I don't subscribe to any one belief on how the two may work together.
I think the Buddha would want us to examine things and be agnostic towards that which doesn't move the dharma forward.
I could be considered a secular Buddhist in a way but I've never heard of this Stephen Batchelor fellow. Is he supposed to represent my views or something?
STEPHEN BACHELOR is bad news. Anyone who is interest to BUDDHISM should not read his books.
Read a book by Monastics!!!!
That didn't do it for me. I can't force a belief (even if at times I would like to) and neither can I just believe something because someone tells me it's true or it's written in some crusty old scripture.
I prefer the 'don't know' approach when faced with this kind of stuff, rather than the "I do know because it's in a book, or someone very special teaches it" approach.
Even if they slander the Dharma. I have my own shit to
worry about.
Teach me, by all means. Well...not all...but you get my point.
hahahaha
Trust me that I can make the difference.
My bull shitter meter works, if that's what
you want to know.
I suppose it's understandable, we have so much merit to be reborn in this western first world society. Where are needs are met and our egos are high, so when encountering something like the Dharma, we just cannot change ourselves, instead we twist the "perceived meanings" as excuses. Not to mention arrogantly slander High practitioners and monks as less wise than our own views.
Those who persist in wrong views and teach wrong views slander Buddha and Dharma, Not even Buddha expected people to simply believe, But rather keep an open mind and test the teachings. Some teachings cannot be tested so easily because as I previously said they require a very refined mind to apprehend. Buddhism has a set view on the nature of things it is not a New age junk shop free for all as some would wish it to be there are Right and wrong views as said by the Buddha.
WoW..Monastics have the light, the truth and the way.
Where have you been hiding!
I have spent some years on other sites trying to help address the Avici Hells that some other monastic's have and continue to create.
Delusion is not the prerogative of the laity.
But thanks for the author review.
Wasn't he once a monastic?
If not, he probably never said it.
JMO
Thanks for helping to broaden my perspective!
I don't really agree with him either, but he has the right to believe (or rather not believe) what he wants.
To enter into a post trivia or suffering mind frame, takes a conscious decision to follow a beneficial life style such as the 8 fold path . . .
You have to understand that we can only be where we are.
I have had personal experience with understanding of emptiness.. it is as follows..
I read all different kinds of books when first getting into Buddhism. A lot of truly great stuff.
Each one of those books had stuff about emptiness in them but because of the causes and conditions that led to my perceptions all those different occasions I literally was not able to see anything about emptiness.
I was completely blind to it.
Couldn't see it at all even though I "read" about it.
It was like a blind man reading braille about what the color purple is like.
Then I received a teaching on Wisdom and it all came together so nicely.
HOW SIMPLE IS THIS!?!!! HOW COULD I EVER THINK OTHERWISE!?!?!?!?!!?!?!!?!?
Causes and conditions came together and I gained some understanding about the subject matter and it has since been a great deal of help to me.
I typed all that to simply illustrate that we can only be where we are man.
That is it.
It is great that you want everybody to be able to have the insights that you do and that you see they are helpful but saying that -> "People talk a good game, but they don't really want to be Enlightened, because that would mean letting go of all those fun things you're doing right now." is ridiculous, and that is just my opinion.
People do not want to suffer, at all. Even ones that have some insight, we still find ourselves clinging to the same old habitual routines. We are ignorant/afraid.
I get what you are saying though, it is difficult to let go of that stuff and most people don't seem willing to "give it their all". It isn't up to you or I to judge other peoples growth though.
For most the following quote holds true.
"When the pain of remaining the same becomes greater than the fear of change, we will surely let go."
Most of the time for me that is what it takes.
Hope this helps.. and I didn't mean to offend anyone by what I typed.
The way out of this conundrum is through the Middle Way.
The topics for everyday living, such as 4 Noble truths are more relevant and easily digestable to all.
Lets for example look at Physics, gravity, friction, motion are like the 4 NT everyday stuff. But if we go into quarks, strings, dark matter, 4th dimension, the size of the Universe, how many of us would comprehend??
For those that dont, they should be kept to one side, until we have achieved a certain of understanding. Its alright to disbelieve, but not to disparage or label it as nonsense.
Coming back, the people who understand the Dharma and those that dont, the above OP topic spells it out clearly. Nothing wrong with that though.... Its only when those who dont have the wisdom, spreads the wrong teachings.
Theres a huge difference between saying" I dont understand and I dont believe" and then writing a book about it.
I've not read Batchelors books, so its not a post about him, just that there are many like what I described.
You practice the teachings gain confidence in them and keep your mind open. Then when your ready take a leap of faith as Buddha suggested, A virtuous mind of faith makes quick with progress where as a constant sceptic will never make any progress in deep examination.
Replace the name Buddha with Christ, and that's exactly the intolerent attitude to questioning my religion that drove me away from my family's church to begin with. Seeing it applied to Buddhism gives me a sour taste in my mouth.
The only way I can respond is to say first, you vastly overestimate the power of something like anonymous posts on an internet board to change people's beliefs and opinions. Trust the Dharma to stand up to a bit of questioning and exploring different ways of following the Middle Way. It has done so for thousands of years now, and will continue to do so. Personally, I think the willingness to toss people the ball and let them run with it is one of its great strengths.
Oh, and I have never and will never slander a monk, arrogantly or otherwise. But I will question their words and actions at times and discuss how their understanding and behavior fits into what the sutras say or I believe. Yes, I know some Buddhists have been taught that monks and other advanced practitioners operate on an advanced spiritual level and we cannot question their actions or words. The monks I've known were great people but just people.
You make Buddhism sound like old-fashioned communism. You must vote in the election...for the one and only candidate who is backed by the communist party.
You are free to contemplate and think, providing that you contemplate and think what I tell you to contemplate and think.
Some good points.
Which does not mean that you aren't free to think what you like. For example, you are free to think that money can buy happiness, but if you do think that, you will suffer. So it's not really saying you aren't free to think that. It's more just stating the consequences of different kinds of thinking. Or something like that.