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Is metta an authentic teaching?

Read the whole thing before responding.

These are my friend's thoughts below:

The problem: cycle of birth and death
Solution: Liberation from this cycle
Practice: Detachment

Concepts like metta make us feel good about ourselves, perhaps put a smile on someone's face. But in the context of liberation, they perform no role whatsoever. Suppose I am attached to A, I keep coming back to A. But if I practice detachment, I will eventually be free of A.

Even for freedom from small habits, one has to practice detachment - and not some sentimental feel-good stuff like 'May all beings be happy' and so on. So for liberation, wouldn't detachment be the all-important practice (and metta and everything else irrelevant)?


The above sums up my friend's thought. I have my own theory on this but would like to hear yours.

Comments

  • You can see Brahma Vihara discution in this forum:-)
  • If you bring mindfulness with metta there is a natural letting go.

    This is very apparent in practice.

    In any form of letting go when not conditioned by aversion or attachment, there is peace, joy, compassion, equanimity, and kindness/love.

    And cultivating these qualities also bring letting go.

    Its a two way street.
    personkarasti
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited December 2012
    I think so, yes (e.g., see Richard Gombrich's "Kindness and Compassion as means to Nirvana in Early Buddhism").
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited December 2012
    The source of the Metta Bhavana practice is the Karaniya Metta Sutta (" The Sutta on the cultivation of loving kindness ") spoken by the Buddha.
    Daozen
  • Citta said:

    The source of the Metta Bhavana practice is the Karaniya Metta Sutta (" The Sutta on the cultivation of loving kindness ") spoken by the Buddha.

    Upekkha . which properly translates as equanimity is important, but upekkha without metta is simply indifference.
    Just as metta without upekkha tends to the sentimental.

    person
  • They give us the courage and tools to face our fears which is neccessary in the path.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited December 2012
    Is the Karaniya Metta Sutta in Sutta Nipata 1.8, in the Pali Canon, as well as all the other suttas of the Pali canon, that speak about metta, authentic? I doubt you will find any scholars that would say it isn't. But, no matter how many times people tell you it is authentic, you just won't believe it. Why? Why you can't believe that is a better question.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    So, @Music, whether it's authentic or not, why wouldn't it be good and worthwhile?
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited December 2012
    The Buddha taught metta(loving-friendliness) many many times in the suttas in various places.. metta is an integral part of dhamma practice!

    as stated above Metta is also one of the four divine abodes. it is a mental state of unconditional love and equanimity for all beings.. it is also the only love that is not conducive to suffering, as opposed to Eros(marital love) and Filia( family love) which are beset with Dukkha.

    metta should be a part of your daily practice without a doubt. and as a matter of fact the Buddha stated that people could become enlightened simply through metta.
    person
  • It is true that metta does not alone lead to enlightenment though it does lead to the god realms, which are probably pretty nice compared to some of the other realms!!

    Just like with jhana they are a tool to use towards enlightenment, but they don't develop all of the qualities needed is what I have heard.
  • music said:


    These are my friend's thoughts below:

    The problem: cycle of birth and death
    Solution: Liberation from this cycle
    Practice: Detachment

    Concepts like metta make us feel good about ourselves, perhaps put a smile on someone's face. But in the context of liberation, they perform no role whatsoever. Suppose I am attached to A, I keep coming back to A. But if I practice detachment, I will eventually be free of A.

    Even for freedom from small habits, one has to practice detachment - and not some sentimental feel-good stuff like 'May all beings be happy' and so on. So for liberation, wouldn't detachment be the all-important practice (and metta and everything else irrelevant)?


    “Detachment only!”
    That’s an interesting way of looking at it.
    Maybe the Dharma is like a diamond. It can be looked at from different angles and appear in various colors and “detachment only” could be an interesting practice; why not.
    Aversion – taiyaki mentioned that – is attachment in the negative form. Maybe your friend should try avoiding both attachment and aversion and see where it takes him.

    Jeffreyperson
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    Citta said:

    Citta said:

    The source of the Metta Bhavana practice is the Karaniya Metta Sutta (" The Sutta on the cultivation of loving kindness ") spoken by the Buddha.

    Upekkha . which properly translates as equanimity is important, but upekkha without metta is simply indifference.
    Just as metta without upekkha tends to the sentimental.

    And there is the middle way again.

    MaryAnne
  • Yup.
  • I think that enligthment is Anatta knowing, this is the specification of the buddha practice. Metta is like air or fire or another samadhi method, it's a tool.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    music said:

    Read the whole thing before responding.

    These are my friend's thoughts below:

    The problem: cycle of birth and death
    Solution: Liberation from this cycle
    Practice: Detachment

    Concepts like metta make us feel good about ourselves, perhaps put a smile on someone's face. But in the context of liberation, they perform no role whatsoever. Suppose I am attached to A, I keep coming back to A. But if I practice detachment, I will eventually be free of A.

    Even for freedom from small habits, one has to practice detachment - and not some sentimental feel-good stuff like 'May all beings be happy' and so on. So for liberation, wouldn't detachment be the all-important practice (and metta and everything else irrelevant)?


    The above sums up my friend's thought. I have my own theory on this but would like to hear yours.

    Metta is an important cultivator of insight and brings to fruition attainments.
    BhikkhuJayasara
  • Yes.
  • Thanks, everyone. I don't believe that metta is salvific. But I do believe that metta may result from salvific practices. For instance, a person who understands the four NTs may train his mind to see the impermanent nature of the world - he may thus lose interest in greedy pursuits, give up pride, anger etc. This could - indirectly - make him a kind, loving person. But this is only an effect of salvific practices. Hence, my conclusion is that metta is not something you cultivate - rather, it is the result of contemplation (of the 4 NTs).
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited December 2012
    Well there are countless Dharma students down the ages and current who actually practice Buddhadharma and who disprove your thesis, as Metta Bhavana is one of their main practices...and many of those do not " study " at all..they cultivate a good heart.
    Which makes me wonder, not for the first time, do you actually know any practicing Buddhists personally music ?
    I think spending time with real flesh and blood Buddhists would answer many of your questions.
    Although of course that may be the problem.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    music said:

    Concepts like metta make us feel good about ourselves, perhaps put a smile on someone's face.

    But metta is expansive, so it reduces our self-centredness, facilitating detachment.

    Just do the practice and see!
  • music said:

    Thanks, everyone. I don't believe that metta is salvific. But I do believe that metta may result from salvific practices. For instance, a person who understands the four NTs may train his mind to see the impermanent nature of the world - he may thus lose interest in greedy pursuits, give up pride, anger etc. This could - indirectly - make him a kind, loving person. But this is only an effect of salvific practices. Hence, my conclusion is that metta is not something you cultivate - rather, it is the result of contemplation (of the 4 NTs).

    Metta is an important tool for liberation, a cause more than an effect.

    Generally, metta practice weaken the ego by breaking down the sense of separateness and opposition from/to other people. It is a direct antidote to aversion, hate, fear, greed, and probably other hindrances or unwholesome thoughts/mindstates.

    This is why Gunaratana, in "Mindfulness in Plain English," strongly suggests meditators practice metta before they start their session. I encourage you to read that section of the book. He is fully aware that skeptics will think of metta as warm-and-fuzzy B.S., but gives an excellent rational for the practice.

    In my experience, doing metta practice before meditation increases my focus and mindfulness. It also makes me a feel better, generally. I highly recommend it as a pre-meditation ritual, at the least.
  • Ajahn Chah's successors are far from purveyors of " touchy-feely " new age Buddhism-lite that attempts to reduce everything to mush, they are hard core ....and they offer as many Metta retreats as they do Vipassana.
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited December 2012
    Citta said:

    Ajahn Chah's successors are far from purveyors of " touchy-feely " new age Buddhism-lite that attempts to reduce everything to mush, they are hard core ....and they offer as many Metta retreats as they do Vipassana.

    I agree with this.. I have yet to see a student of Ajahn Chah's that was not simple and direct about dhamma. Even Ajahn Brahm.. whom some may see as touchy feely, gets his wisdom directly from dhamma and from the suttas.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Metta is something that is intended to be cultivated.

  • Jayantha said:

    Citta said:

    Ajahn Chah's successors are far from purveyors of " touchy-feely " new age Buddhism-lite that attempts to reduce everything to mush, they are hard core ....and they offer as many Metta retreats as they do Vipassana.

    I agree with this.. I have yet to see a student of Ajahn Chah's that was not simple and direct about dhamma. Even Ajahn Brahm.. whom some may see as touchy feely, gets his wisdom directly from dhamma and from the suttas.
    And Ajahn Munindo one of the most no-nonsense teachers in the Forest Tradition..he is Abbott of the monastery at Harnam, teaches that Metta Bhava is particulary needed by western dhamma students who can tend to be either New Agy or clinical and scholarly.
  • Metta is the fuel for practice. Do you not want to be loved?
  • driedleaf said:

    Metta is the fuel for practice. Do you not want to be loved?

    No. I want to be liberated. And 'love' could well be another fetter, albeit a golden one.
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    Citta said:

    Jayantha said:

    Citta said:

    Ajahn Chah's successors are far from purveyors of " touchy-feely " new age Buddhism-lite that attempts to reduce everything to mush, they are hard core ....and they offer as many Metta retreats as they do Vipassana.

    I agree with this.. I have yet to see a student of Ajahn Chah's that was not simple and direct about dhamma. Even Ajahn Brahm.. whom some may see as touchy feely, gets his wisdom directly from dhamma and from the suttas.
    And Ajahn Munindo one of the most no-nonsense teachers in the Forest Tradition..he is Abbott of the monastery at Harnam, teaches that Metta Bhava is particulary needed by western dhamma students who can tend to be either New Agy or clinical and scholarly.
    I do a guided metta meditation every Thursday and what I always say is that this was a teaching of the Buddha 2600 years ago and not some made up new age thing, its amazing how people don't know metta even after "being Buddhist" for years.

    Also I only do the two types of metta taught by the Buddha.. Exaulted and immeasurable release of mind.

    My last retreat at Bhavana society was a 7 day metta retreat, an amazing experience. Metta is an integral part of dhamma practice.
    cazCinorjerCitta
  • music said:

    No. I want to be liberated. And 'love' could well be another fetter, albeit a golden one.

    Not craving, clinging, and attaching to it is one thing, but totally rejecting it is another.

    vinlyn
  • DaivaDaiva Veteran
    edited December 2012
    Not sure if I am totally understanding what your getting at but it seems that your sentiment would be true in the case of all practiced discpline. I mean, all practice starts with some sort of attachment. When do we have a starting point in a purely detached state? The nature of existence, of samsara, is attachment. Even in our best "detached state" we are still attached in some form or other since we still reside in samsara. So doesn't it make sense to eliminate the specific detailed attachments through the metta practice (or any other) our egos cling to and seek the oneness as Cinorjor expressed? Or else what's the point of practicing at all? If the Metta is not good enough, what makes everything else remotely good enough?
  • If we try to be unattached to everything that is like saying I am not going to join the soccer team until I can kick the ball a goal. No you have to practice. If you start unattached there would be no reason to practice at all. If you start with attachment you are very fortunate to even know that there is attachment. But it takes practice both in the sense of being immersed and just learning muscle memory for an open attitude.
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