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The 'feeling' of the ignorant mind is the same as the enlightened mind?
zenmyste
Veteran
Buddhism is about becoming enlightened and awaking from ignorance...
But wouldnt the 'Feeling' of the enlightenment man be the same as the feeling of the ignorant man?
Is the whole point not to just overcome suffering? Therefore whatever works for you - works for you!!
Heres an example;
There are two friends, who both have cancer - and have only got 4 weeks to live!
one 'became' enlightened to the 'truth'
And found out he was going to die!
His friend , never awakened to 'his' truth and helped his friend all the way till the end! They both laughed , shared old stories and helped one another !
They both eventually died - 'happy'
My point is; the friend was ignorant to his truth but his ignorance didnt make a difference! I believe you can still attain happiness! If anything 'his' ignorance could have 'helped' him rather than 'knowing' - some people find the truth to hard to handle and cannot handle it!
Also , where are the 'facts' that the ignorant world is not in fact the real world?
Have you ever had a dream that felt so real?
How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world!
I guess it really does only come down to 'opinions'
For there are no solid facts about what is reality and what is not!
But wouldnt the 'Feeling' of the enlightenment man be the same as the feeling of the ignorant man?
Is the whole point not to just overcome suffering? Therefore whatever works for you - works for you!!
Heres an example;
There are two friends, who both have cancer - and have only got 4 weeks to live!
one 'became' enlightened to the 'truth'
And found out he was going to die!
His friend , never awakened to 'his' truth and helped his friend all the way till the end! They both laughed , shared old stories and helped one another !
They both eventually died - 'happy'
My point is; the friend was ignorant to his truth but his ignorance didnt make a difference! I believe you can still attain happiness! If anything 'his' ignorance could have 'helped' him rather than 'knowing' - some people find the truth to hard to handle and cannot handle it!
Also , where are the 'facts' that the ignorant world is not in fact the real world?
Have you ever had a dream that felt so real?
How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world!
I guess it really does only come down to 'opinions'
For there are no solid facts about what is reality and what is not!
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Comments
Or you could be one whose eyes are open, a human who walks upright, sees the path, builds a raft, crosses the river to freedom.
Arguably, the pig may be happier than the human. But he's going to be made into bacon pretty soon.
Then you talk about how to cross the river to freedom ... - just swim across - no mystery!
The ignorant man can still 'learn' how ti swim!
The ignorant man can still walk upright, and see the path is in front of him and thats all that matters!
Then you say the pig may be 'happier'
Well, good enough for me !
Is it not 'happiness' we are all seeking?
Ajahn Brahm
With equanimity you can roll with the punches.
Seeking happiness, youre bound to find some. But what happens when you don't find it and find disappointment and sadness instead? Your hopes are dashed.
And insight. With insight you can penetrate your world with understanding. Start to see your world more clearly. You may not get any answers, but you will have fewer questions.
That, pardon my candour, is ignorance. The experience of the enlightened can not be compared because it is incomparable. We only know of the world of dreams, which is like the real world but is the matrix, not the real. It is the shadow, not the real. You may be content with that . . . but is it real . . .
Morpheus: I imagine that right now, you're feeling a bit like Alice. Hmm? Tumbling down the rabbit hole?
Neo: You could say that.
Morpheus: I see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that's not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
Neo: No.
Morpheus: Why not?
Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.
Morpheus: I know *exactly* what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Neo: The Matrix.
Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?
Neo: Yes.
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.
That, pardon my candour, is ignorance. The experience of the enlightened can not be compared because it is incomparable. We only know of the world of dreams, which is like the real world but is the matrix, not the real. It is the shadow, not the real. You may be content with that . . . but is it real . . .
Morpheus: I imagine that right now, you're feeling a bit like Alice. Hmm? Tumbling down the rabbit hole?
Neo: You could say that.
Morpheus: I see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that's not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
Neo: No.
Morpheus: Why not?
Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.
Morpheus: I know *exactly* what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Neo: The Matrix.
Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?
Neo: Yes.
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.
One of my favourite movies... However, i believe that 'this' thing called the matrix (the thing we see everywhere, when we go to work, pay our taxes, go to church etc etc) all this isnt the 'matrix' - all this 'is' reality. All this 'is' enlightenment!
And its only because people dont like that mundane fact that they want to 'believe' there is something 'else'
They call 'this world' delusion - matrix , when 'really' i dont believe it is!
I believe it 'is' real! And we have to accept it if we want to attain peace!
Believing that there is ' something ' to attain like truth ir enlightenment can only hinder living our full potential NOW!
This NOW is all there is! (For me anyway)
I only mean a man living in what all you lot call ignorance doesnt 'nescessarily' mean he cannot live a 'happy ad content' life!
So its depends what everyone wants doesnt it..
Ive always stated on here that i know 'alot' of people who are 'not' buddhist or any other religion for that matter and they are perfectly 'happy'' and content!
They dont 'need' any religion or philosophy !
But when i tell people this they alwys say "well they are living in ignorance"
But who says they are living in ignorance? And even if they are , if theyre happy and not 'harming' anyone then whats the matter with that?
I dont believe that its ignorance that cause our suffering! I do however believe that 'attachment' causes suffering! But i just dont think ignorance causes suffering!
Like i said i 'know' people who, (according to buddhism) are living in ignorance but they are not 'suffering' like buddhism states!
So thats why i cannot grasp it because ive whitnessed otherwise!
Lol , im sorry again, but this is where me and buddhism seperate!
I dont believe in rebirth etc etc !
Im only interested in how to live my life NOW!
Basically you want to spend your life in the Now. Which is one of the experiences that Buddhism helps with. I know you can not do it as completely and as satisfyingly as an experienced practitioner. If you feel you can.
Great.
Live long and prosper. :wave:
But more important, I'm a bit bothered by an implication that only those who are more intellectual can achieve enlightenment.
All these are in the eyes of the beholder???
Whether there is or is not such a thing as enlightenment is a factual thing.
Whether someone is ignorant or not is a judgment based on degrees. Take the last election. I know quite a few Republicans who honestly think Barack Obama is ignorant. And I know quite a few Democrats who honestly thought that virtually all the Republican candidates in the primaries were ignorant. Both sides were wrong.
I've never known a person who thinks they are ignorant. It's always someone else.
Why do you think they would have happy deaths? That's an oxymoron, death is not a happy time.
Ignorance means avoidance of reality. You don't question the fundamental assumptions such as meaning of time that cause prapancha and sankhara. Avidya is the word for ignorance. We are attached to our cacoon.
No.
Kenshō
When it come to developing an illness like cancer and the painful feelings that may arise, for example, it can mean the difference between being the person who "worries and grieves ... laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught" and the person who's "not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair," or to suffering (SN 36.6). Ignorance in Buddhism doesn't refer to a lack of knowledge in terms of specific facts about life like when and how we're going to die so much as it refers to a mroe generalized for of ignorance, i.e., ignorance of the four noble truths and the skills associated with them. As Thanissaro Bhikkhu sums it up in his essay "Ignorance": In the end, however, I don't think it really matters so much whether our experience of the world is objectively real or not. Our experience of the present — awake or dreaming, reality or illusion — is the only reality we know in that moment; and if that experience (which seems real enough to me), is characterized by stress or suffering, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair, and we have the option of adjusting to that experience in such a way that we're only afflicted by one dart instead of two (i.e., a painful bodily, but not a mental one), then I think it's an adjustment worth making. And if others don't, that's OK too. Buddhism merely offers a path for those who wish to follow it.
I think you are a little confused by the concept that 'we are already enlightened'. We do have Buddhanature but there is a black cloud covering the sun. The Lam Rim is about clearing away that cloud to reveal the sun of enlightenment. Enlightenment is not a state like a mood. It is the nature of mind when the clouds blow away. Tantra is about realizing the cloud is 'made of' the sun and opening (the opposite of avidya).
We don't 'find' enlightenment we 'discover'. Present tense versus past.
Im starting to believe that we are all born enlightened and see things as they really are -- then we somehow forget and become spiritual and start seeking and this causes us to not see things as they really are -- then 'if' we're lucky some of us finally see things again as they really are!
Ignorance.
I can see how Buddhism might seem to require us to be more 'intellectual' than average. Especially when some people like me rabbit on about philosophy all the time. But it would not be necessary to be able to read or write, so 'intellectual' here would have a quite limited meaning. I suppose being thick as a plank wouldn't help. On the other hand, perhaps it would. Seems to me the intellect can be a help or a hindrance.
Ones own ignorance is not in the eye of the beholder, since it is not seen at all while one is suffering from it, and because of it. This would be the problem.
Im basically refering to 'everything' as it is in this very moment!
I believe the real reality is what you all think is illusion!
All 'this' is 'it' - nothing more - nothing mystical - nothing hidden!
All 'this' is 'it' - nothing more - nothing mystical - nothing hidden!
"Except when you've been meditating for years and finally penetrate to a deeper or more subtle level of reality and go OH WOW WOW, HOW COME I DIDN'T SEE THAT BEFORE!?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!! WOOOO! "
Exactly and theres absolutely no words that will explain that to anyone at all .. sometimes giving up is the first requirement.. surrender. quit. Admit you know nothing instead of thinking you know everything. Zenmyste maybe you'd like this guy Robert Rohr- check him out on youtube.. Christian guy who explains how Jesus was pointing to the same thing as Buddha and how the message has gotten completely lost over the years and is now a belief system of the masses... but originally- same thing!
I think you're missing Zenmyste's point. There's no apparent difference between Buddhist practitioners and the kind of people Zenmyte mentions here.
I don't think I'm missing the point. It was specifically said "unenlightened" and "enlightened" people. Enlightened people, by definition, have abandoned greed and hate. Unenlightened people, by definition, haven't. So there is certainly a difference between the two I would say. I don't see how there couldn't be. I would not unequivocally answer no to that. I would answer with "possibly".
Which means that you don't know, so ...
It's kinda the foundation of Buddhism.
I agree though, that people are often happy to be (in the Buddhist sense) ignorant. Why not? They would have no idea that there is another option, and as long as everything is going well life is full and rewarding. That there is another state that is much more full and rewarding is not obvious.
Which means that you don't know, so ...
I know there is a difference between being enlightened and not enlightened.
I know there is a difference between being enlightened and not enlightened.
How ??? Are you enlightened??
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation
So we will agree that mind of people that practice meditation is different in some grade to people that not meditate.
If mind work different the feelings that this produce would be different also.
So, interpolating that, we can assume that a enlightened mind that is caused for extensive meditation practice is radically different to a non enlightened mind.
All the other is metaphysical guessing that you could or not be agree with.
How ??? Are you enlightened??
How do people know the sun is 93 million miles away? Have they traveled there to measure it? No, but they still know it is. Something like that I would say.
How do you know they got it right?
The answer: you don't.
You are taking it on faith that the measurement is accurate. You don't even question it.
Why is that? Because you believe the people who made those calculations are experts in their field.
Have you met one of them?