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The 'feeling' of the ignorant mind is the same as the enlightened mind?
You're kidding right? It's not necessary to travel to the sun to determine the distance. The sun is there though.
Did you measure the distance? If not, did you check the calculations of the ones that did? How do you know they got it right? The answer: you don't. You are taking it on faith that the measurement is accurate. You don't even question it. Why is that? Because you believe the people who made those calculations are experts in their field. Have you met one of them?
No, I don't call that faith. That's just acceptance of information that we can't check ourselves, or don't want to.
Buddhism is about becoming enlightened and awaking from ignorance...
But wouldnt the 'Feeling' of the enlightenment man be the same as the feeling of the ignorant man?
Is the whole point not to just overcome suffering? Therefore whatever works for you - works for you!!
Heres an example;
There are two friends, who both have cancer - and have only got 4 weeks to live! one 'became' enlightened to the 'truth' And found out he was going to die!
His friend , never awakened to 'his' truth and helped his friend all the way till the end! They both laughed , shared old stories and helped one another !
They both eventually died - 'happy'
My point is; the friend was ignorant to his truth but his ignorance didnt make a difference! I believe you can still attain happiness! If anything 'his' ignorance could have 'helped' him rather than 'knowing' - some people find the truth to hard to handle and cannot handle it!
Also , where are the 'facts' that the ignorant world is not in fact the real world?
Have you ever had a dream that felt so real? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world!
I guess it really does only come down to 'opinions' For there are no solid facts about what is reality and what is not!
The friend who didn't know he was going to die could not have possibly brought himself into good terms with his 'life', and would not have been at enough peace for happiness to exist within death. The friend who found out four weeks earlier would have had a chance to bring himself into good terms with his life, and may have found enough peace for happiness to exist within death.
You're kidding right? It's not necessary to travel to the sun to determine the distance. The sun is there though.
Did you measure the distance? If not, did you check the calculations of the ones that did? How do you know they got it right? The answer: you don't. You are taking it on faith that the measurement is accurate. You don't even question it. Why is that? Because you believe the people who made those calculations are experts in their field. Have you met one of them?
No, I don't call that faith. That's just acceptance of information that we can't check ourselves, or don't want to.
Faith is more than that.
I suppose it could be said that one has faith in the Buddhist concept of enlightenment based on the experience of masters prior to setting out to have ones own realizations through study and meditation along with a disciplined life. If I wanted to be certain about the suns distance from us I could study math or astrophysics or whatever and come to my own conclusions.
Faith/ belief/ confidence based on belief in the source of the information. Where do you see the difference? We are talking about enlightenment/realization here, not rebirth.
I suppose it could be said that one has faith in the Buddhist concept of enlightenment based on the experience of masters prior to setting out to have ones own realizations through study and meditation along with a disciplined life. If I wanted to be certain about the suns distance from us I could study math or astrophysics or whatever and come to my own conclusions.
Faith/ belief/ confidence based on belief in the source of the information. Where do you see the difference? We are talking about enlightenment/realization here, not rebirth.
Well, let's put it this way:
The distance to the sun has been measured astronomically, repeatedly, by men from different cultures and countries. No responsible group of people is disputing it. Man has come to accept it as fact. No one is saying there is no sun. No one that I'm aware of is saying, "Oh they're wrong, it's only 4 miles away." It's been established, and at most there will only be slight refinements to the measure. So, even those of us who cannot measure it personally accept it at face value.
Has enlightenment been measured? No, it's not something that can be measured. Has it been confirmed repeatedly by people from different cultures and countries? Well, actually it's been disputed by millions of people...virtually everyone who is not a Buddhist -- and that's most of the world. So, one group of people have faith in enlightenment. Another major group of people have faith in Jesus. Etc. Who can PROVE they are right? No one.
Now if you want to go off from this on some abstract train of thought, go ahead. I'm not hopping on board.
I suppose it could be said that one has faith in the Buddhist concept of enlightenment based on the experience of masters prior to setting out to have ones own realizations through study and meditation along with a disciplined life. If I wanted to be certain about the suns distance from us I could study math or astrophysics or whatever and come to my own conclusions.
Faith/ belief/ confidence based on belief in the source of the information. Where do you see the difference? We are talking about enlightenment/realization here, not rebirth.
Well, let's put it this way:
The distance to the sun has been measured astronomically, repeatedly, by men from different cultures and countries. No responsible group of people is disputing it. Man has come to accept it as fact. No one is saying there is no sun. No one that I'm aware of is saying, "Oh they're wrong, it's only 4 miles away." It's been established, and at most there will only be slight refinements to the measure. So, even those of us who cannot measure it personally accept it at face value.
Has enlightenment been measured? No, it's not something that can be measured. Has it been confirmed repeatedly by people from different cultures and countries? Well, actually it's been disputed by millions of people...virtually everyone who is not a Buddhist -- and that's most of the world. So, one group of people have faith in enlightenment. Another major group of people have faith in Jesus. Etc. Who can PROVE they are right? No one.
Now if you want to go off from this on some abstract train of thought, go ahead. I'm not hopping on board.
Thanks for the response. You could have spared me the snippy closing sentence. I know you are not a crankpot. Just vinlyn being vinlyn.
I'm sorry, @Robot, I don't mean to be snippy. But to be honest, I think you're stringing me along way beyond what is reasonable in terms of discussing the distance to the moon. The discussion of faith needs to go in a considerably different direction because it feels like if it doesn't, we're going to get into a conversation that has all the integrity of the flat earth society.
Over the past couple of years on this forum I've given a lot of thought to faith and its place in Buddhism. I just feel like the way this conversation is going is getting silly.
You're kidding right? It's not necessary to travel to the sun to determine the distance. The sun is there though.
Exactly! Just like it is not necessary to get full enlightenment before you can know there is a difference between enlightened and not enlightened.
The problem is that you need an enlightened person (someone incapable of feeling or expressing greed and hate) from which to measure. There is a sun from which to measure.
Some say, 'well, there are no enlightened people, there's only enlightened activity'. And that brings us back to where we started, both Buddhists and non-Buddists do good things.
You're kidding right? It's not necessary to travel to the sun to determine the distance. The sun is there though.
Exactly! Just like it is not necessary to get full enlightenment before you can know there is a difference between enlightened and not enlightened.
Some say, 'well, there are no enlightened people, there's only enlightened activity'. And that brings us back to where we started, both Buddhists and non-Buddists do good things.
Exactly, and here is another 'opinion' i would like to share; if there is only enlightened 'activity' then that means non buddhists can also perform this enlightened activity aswell 'without' even thinking twice about all this 'no self' stuff and other buddhist teachings etc.. There are some people i believe who buddhists say are 'delusional' but who are perhaps more 'enlightened' than buddhist themselves!
There is distorted enlightened activity. For example a husband beats his wife. It happens because he can't handle his feelings. The beating is obviously not enlightened activity but from the perspective of the wife beater he wants to get something from it. Unfortunately he is not going to get anything good other than terrible karma of emotional fallout. If he were enlightened he could have non-violent communication with his wife. But everything comes from the wish to be happy, just there is a dark wall of wrong views preventing the sun of enlightenment from shining.
There is distorted enlightened activity. For example a husband beats his wife. It happens because he can't handle his feelings. The beating is obviously not enlightened activity but from the perspective of the wife beater he wants to get something from it. Unfortunately he is not going to get anything good other than terrible karma of emotional fallout. If he were enlightened he could have non-violent communication with his wife. But everything comes from the wish to be happy, just there is a dark wall of wrong views preventing the sun of enlightenment from shining.
You dont have to be buddhist 'or' enlightened to know not to hit your wife
I havent got a realisation! But i have got a way of living; the way of no way!
The practice of no practice - to just be and enjoy my life before im dead!
Ill still come on here (for interest) Ill still read (for hobbie and interest) Ill still ask questions (out of interest)
But im not 'seeking' anything Im just 'living my life' day by day - accepting whatever comes!
(If i had to say what is my belief, i would say that; 'what buddhists believe is the delusion world - i call it 'reality'
What you see right now , all around you, is 'it' (true reality-no mystery-no enlightenment) nothing more nothing less!
(Only my opinion tho and i realize that most people (spiritual and religious) will think im the delusional one - (but i believe that they are! But whatever works that get us through life, works.. so if one is happy through having their faith or belief or religion , thats cool! Good luck to them!
The Buddha taught the way to a totally different sort of happiness than ordinary happiness. To peace, not the happiness of laughing, sharing the stories or 'living the good life'. Peace a not-enlightened mind can not have, because it is still attached. To happiness itself among other things.
(If i had to say what is my belief, i would say that; 'what buddhists believe is the delusion world - i call it 'reality'
What you see right now , all around you, is 'it' (true reality-no mystery-no enlightenment) nothing more nothing less!
you're actually saying that attachments, wrong views, unskillful actions, lust, greed, etc are just part of reality (which is true), but that we shouldn't really do anything about it (this is the part I'm having trouble jiving with)?
(If i had to say what is my belief, i would say that; 'what buddhists believe is the delusion world - i call it 'reality'
What you see right now , all around you, is 'it' (true reality-no mystery-no enlightenment) nothing more nothing less!
you're actually saying that attachments, wrong views, unskillful actions, lust, greed, etc are just part of reality (which is true), but that we shouldn't really do anything about it (this is the part I'm having trouble jiving with)?
Not necessarily..
All im saying is 'reality' is what i see around me right now! Not yesterday and tomorrow! However, i do also understand that if i have an attachment for the path then i will suffer, that is why try to stay focused on the now! Day by day!
Then you mention unskillful actions Again not necessarily, the 5 precepts cone natural to be because of how i was brought up! I know right from wrong! I dont lie, steal, cheat, etc etc..
Then u mention lust - (again i understand myself that lust isnt love - i have a beautiful gf who i love and i do not have lust for anyone else or anything else in life
Then greed , i am actually the least greedy person ever! (I know everyone could say that) but again i take after ny mothers nature, very kind, unselfish etc I do alot for family friends and charity !
But then as you mention 'all these' are apart of life anyway, so all im saying is perhaps its not necessarily a bad thing to have 'some of them' as long as you understand that 'nothing' lasts, so if you understand certin things about life and always try to promote goodness ad help each other etc - and accept life as it comes, accept yourself and others, then i dont think theres much else to think about!
I actually think that 'over thinking' is what can cause suffering, not necessarily the thing itself!
Im not saying im right or i know it all because i dont - im just saying im at a point where i realized i wanted my practice to be 'the pactice of no practice' To just live and see what happens , (but obviously still knowing that nothing exists forever therefore i dont get too attached anyway)
I basically live spontaneously, in accordance with nature or life (or the tao or god whatever you want to call it.
"At the end of the day, I dont want to miss the miracle of life through 'searching the miracle" ~me~
"I dont want to have missed the answer through looking for the answer" ~me~
When all along its right *here*....
whether some see 'it' or not , is up to them! This is the part where you cannot explain the unexplainable! (Like the tao or zen)
Even if people manage to explain it, others wouldnt like it because it is so 'mundane' and *delusional* lol
You're kidding right? It's not necessary to travel to the sun to determine the distance. The sun is there though.
Exactly! Just like it is not necessary to get full enlightenment before you can know there is a difference between enlightened and not enlightened.
The problem is that you need an enlightened person (someone incapable of feeling or expressing greed and hate) from which to measure. There is a sun from which to measure.
Some say, 'well, there are no enlightened people, there's only enlightened activity'. And that brings us back to where we started, both Buddhists and non-Buddists do good things.
The Buddha was enlightened and there are 84,000 dharmas about it, so that is the example from which to measure. "There are no enlightened people" refers to anatta or not self. However, that does not mean that "there are no enlightened people" on the conventional level because not everyone has realized these truths. Yes, both Buddhists and non Buddhists do good things, but that does not mean all these people are enlightened or that there is no difference between enlightened or not enlightened. Shunryu Suzuki, the person who said "there are no enlightened people" also says "A person who thinks all the time has nothing to think about except thoughts. So he loses touch with reality, and lives in a world of illusions."
Also, you talk about rooting around in the mud looking for food with no concept of the mud we live in ... Mud is mud - get a nice shower and 'cook' your 'own' food instead of 'rooting' for some !
Then you talk about how to cross the river to freedom ... - just swim across - no mystery!
The ignorant man can still 'learn' how ti swim!
The ignorant man can still walk upright, and see the path is in front of him and thats all that matters!
Then you say the pig may be 'happier' Well, good enough for me !
Is it not 'happiness' we are all seeking?
You reminded me of a Hong Kong actress who made a video before she died of cancer. She died happy, believing it was a test from God and she had passed and would end up in heaven. That said, I would think that the enlightened mind and the ignorant mind should be a world apart. First, the enlightened mind probably has equanimity. There should not be that kind of happiness involved, a feeling of euphoria or a feeling of being buoyed up. As we know, what goes up, comes down. When the ignorant feels happy, the happiness last as long as the situation around is favourable. You just need someone to prick the bubble of happiness to bring the ignorant to the woeful states. In an enlightened mind, there is calmness and peace, comes rain or shine. An enlightened mind is like a lotus growing out of the mud.
zenmyste, I could try to tell you why those two are not the same. Or how you might get some inspiration from the suttas. But what it comes down to is, if people feel the need to search, they will. If they don't, they won't. This doesn't really depend on what we want - I would say the reason to search for higher happiness is to see suffering. If you don't see suffering, there is also no reason to practice. And you'll say everything is ok.
This is also applicable to myself at times, so don't take it personal.
Whether someone wants to be a buddhist, Whether someone wants to be a christian, Whether someone believes in god, Whether someone believes in enlightenment,
All this is fine! But they all share one thing - they all only have 'right now' to do whatever it is they want to do!
And the truth is, that is the only reality there is! (This *right now*)
You're kidding right? It's not necessary to travel to the sun to determine the distance. The sun is there though.
Exactly! Just like it is not necessary to get full enlightenment before you can know there is a difference between enlightened and not enlightened.
The problem is that you need an enlightened person (someone incapable of feeling or expressing greed and hate) from which to measure. There is a sun from which to measure.
Some say, 'well, there are no enlightened people, there's only enlightened activity'. And that brings us back to where we started, both Buddhists and non-Buddists do good things.
The Buddha was enlightened and there are 84,000 dharmas about it, so that is the example from which to measure. "There are no enlightened people" refers to anatta or not self. However, that does not mean that "there are no enlightened people" on the conventional level because not everyone has realized these truths. Yes, both Buddhists and non Buddhists do good things, but that does not mean all these people are enlightened or that there is no difference between enlightened or not enlightened. Shunryu Suzuki, the person who said "there are no enlightened people" also says "A person who thinks all the time has nothing to think about except thoughts. So he loses touch with reality, and lives in a world of illusions."
Depend of what is a scientific prove for you, for science a theory is something already being supported by facts. So you only need information about the Special Relativity theory and his implications in time perception to have the prove that past, future and present (or the "right now") moments are illusionary.
So just understanding this theory right could be a sufficient prove.
@Zenmyste, I experienced a realization that I had been hoping for my practice to relieve negative feelings due to somewhat schizophrenia. At a point there was a time when I relaxed from the urge to get rid of my suffering. I stopped meditating, though I had no resentment to Buddhism, I effectively stopped. I still had warm feelings and interest in Buddhism, I just stopped trying to make myself feel different. That went on and eventually I went back to meditation, but this time I had less feeling that I had to gain a certain relief. So I have been vigilant since I started back meditating and meditate every day. I do feel more peaceful due to the meditation and letting go of the need to change my feeling into relief. Still I explore relief and often I say 'aahhhhh' just to feel the quality of mind that appreciates beauty and truth.
@Arthurbodhi - Very interesting stuff (that I probably learned in physics but didn't remember because I nearly failed)!
So, from what I understand, the "right now" or "present moment" can only be referred to as such because of its relation to the past and future. It doesn't exist on its own.
So the "present moment" is not so much an illusion as a scientifically inaccurate term, it seems.
But that doesn't mean that it's "wrong" to desire to become "more present" (I'm not sure if you were suggesting that though).
@zenmyste - but to get to your point of "practice of no practice," it took practice, no?
I don't mean to come off as antagonistic; I'm just having a hard time following your train of thought sometimes. I get that you're all about being present, and that sometimes "seeking" can present more problems than answers (I agree), but where does a moral/ethical framework come into play? I know many people who always talk about "living in the moment," but also get caught up in the emotions of the moment, do all sorts of ridiculous things that can potentially harm themselves and others because of "the moment." Not saying that you're like that, but these people are being "present," but in my view, in the wrong way.
@Nevermind, I thought it a parallel story to ZM because in both of our stories we let go of tryinig to get something outside of the 'now'. I wouldn't phrase it that way, but it is similar. Thanks for trying to keep the thread on track, but I guess you and maybe other readers missed my point.
@Invincible_summer - exactly, nothing bad to try to being more "present" or be more mindfulness. The error is think that the present moment is the only reality that exist, independent from other moment in time. The Special Relativity theory actually say that, that the time isn't a flowing line of continuous moments; past, future and present doesn't exist like individual moments in time.
Albert Einstein about this topic said: " People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion".
Do not misunderstood this thinking that the time is a illusion or that doesn't exist causality in the physical world . That is something quite different.
Invincible summer , I understand what ur saying completely.. And if i am going to be honest, i dont think i have an 'answer' because i am not a 'teacher' so i cannot fully express in words what i mean! But ill try again and answer!
i think what has happened (to me) and what it comes down to is this; i think to have a 'practice' is for somebody who 'needs' a practice..and if they need something to get by or to help them then thats fine but for me i realized i was missing the most important part of life - the now! Believe it or not , trying to have a practice was causing me to miss the now! And for years i didnt realize that 'i actually' didnt 'need' a practice to live my life or to be 'happy' (because in fact no one does) because the ultimate practice is (what i call no practice) is Already In YOU! You are already where you need to be (we just have to finally realize it)
Of course i am not a master or teacher or guru so my words will be meaningless to everyone but i think its a shame that i cannot express fully what i mean! Its just something i understand in my head but in writing it sounds nonesence! lol
[Invincible summer] You mention about people getting caught up in the emotions of the now and doing ridiculous things that can harm themselves and others - - right, so there is half my point right there; i guess what i am trying to say is, its 'them' people that perhaps do obviously need help or a 'practice' - BUT for those who are not bringing harm to others yet who are on the spiritual path and yet still 'seeking' (even though theyre on the path) its those who i am talking 'about' - they dont need to be on the path if they now know the path of right from wrong so what are they 'still' seeking? i dont get it!! Because deep down they have already found it! They 'know' not to do bad anymore, for it causes suffering to themselves and others! What else are people looking for if its not to improve themselves as humans and to be happy? If we get to a stage where we 'naturally' live by the 5 precepts (which some people do) then the 'seeking' can end.. We should be able to live a life that 'just lives' and the practice becomes 'the way of no way' because now it is natural and spontaneous (the precepts become 'a part of us naturally') so we dont 'need' 'buddhism' or a 'religion' to study in the end! We will finally be able to live and enjoy our time 'right now' ! I think some people are looking for something that isnt there!!
So for me, i cant see where the delusion is????
If i am promoting good, and naturally living by the precepts but keeping my whole body , mind and soul in the present moment , then what is delusional about that?
But then this i where i go one step further; for those who still believe i am delusional (even though i still do all that i do) then im sorry but i believe its 'them' who are delusional because (for me) there is nothing else to do or practice! (This moment 'is' it)
This is a surprising discussion for a Buddhist website. I hadn't realised there was so much doubt and confusion in the air. I disagree with much of that's been said here and it's hard to know what to say in response. So I'll go back to probably the most heterodox statement, which was the OP's.
"I guess it really does only come down to 'opinions' For there are no solid facts about what is reality and what is not! "
This states that Buddhist doctrine is nonsense and that the Buddha was making it up as he went along. Of course there are solid facts about reality and people who know them. It's just that we cannot know this for sure unless we overcome, at least to some extent, our ignorance.
It is an odd thing to do, to say there are no facts about reality, for it is the admission that we don't know any, which means that we do not know that there there are none.
Buddhism is about the cessation of suffering and this cessation is only possible because of the nature of reality. If reality were different then no such cessation would be possible. And we could hardly say that Buddhist practice is a process of overcoming ignorance but that it gives us no knowledge of the facts. To see things as they are is to know facts about reality. Otherwise we could never be sure that we are seeing things as they really are and all the sages would be liars. Which is what some people think, of course, but not usually on Buddhist forums.
People like the Buddha and Lao-tsu do not make statements about reality that are not grounded in knowledge. This is why we can never falsify what they say.
Comments
Faith is more than that.
If I wanted to be certain about the suns distance from us I could study math or astrophysics or whatever and come to my own conclusions.
Faith/ belief/ confidence based on belief in the source of the information.
Where do you see the difference? We are talking about enlightenment/realization here, not rebirth.
The distance to the sun has been measured astronomically, repeatedly, by men from different cultures and countries. No responsible group of people is disputing it. Man has come to accept it as fact. No one is saying there is no sun. No one that I'm aware of is saying, "Oh they're wrong, it's only 4 miles away." It's been established, and at most there will only be slight refinements to the measure. So, even those of us who cannot measure it personally accept it at face value.
Has enlightenment been measured? No, it's not something that can be measured. Has it been confirmed repeatedly by people from different cultures and countries? Well, actually it's been disputed by millions of people...virtually everyone who is not a Buddhist -- and that's most of the world. So, one group of people have faith in enlightenment. Another major group of people have faith in Jesus. Etc. Who can PROVE they are right? No one.
Now if you want to go off from this on some abstract train of thought, go ahead. I'm not hopping on board.
I know you are not a crankpot. Just vinlyn being vinlyn.
Over the past couple of years on this forum I've given a lot of thought to faith and its place in Buddhism. I just feel like the way this conversation is going is getting silly.
Some say, 'well, there are no enlightened people, there's only enlightened activity'. And that brings us back to where we started, both Buddhists and non-Buddists do good things.
But i have got a way of living; the way of no way!
The practice of no practice - to just be and enjoy my life before im dead!
Ill still come on here (for interest)
Ill still read (for hobbie and interest)
Ill still ask questions (out of interest)
But im not 'seeking' anything
Im just 'living my life' day by day - accepting whatever comes!
(If i had to say what is my belief, i would say that; 'what buddhists believe is the delusion world - i call it 'reality'
What you see right now , all around you, is 'it' (true reality-no mystery-no enlightenment)
nothing more nothing less!
(Only my opinion tho and i realize that most people (spiritual and religious) will think im the delusional one - (but i believe that they are! But whatever works that get us through life, works.. so if one is happy through having their faith or belief or religion , thats cool! Good luck to them!
So when you say you're actually saying that attachments, wrong views, unskillful actions, lust, greed, etc are just part of reality (which is true), but that we shouldn't really do anything about it (this is the part I'm having trouble jiving with)?
Not necessarily..
All im saying is 'reality' is what i see around me right now! Not yesterday and tomorrow! However, i do also understand that if i have an attachment for the path then i will suffer, that is why try to stay focused on the now! Day by day!
Then you mention unskillful actions
Again not necessarily, the 5 precepts cone natural to be because of how i was brought up! I know right from wrong! I dont lie, steal, cheat, etc etc..
Then u mention lust - (again i understand myself that lust isnt love - i have a beautiful gf who i love and i do not have lust for anyone else or anything else in life
Then greed , i am actually the least greedy person ever! (I know everyone could say that) but again i take after ny mothers nature, very kind, unselfish etc
I do alot for family friends and charity !
But then as you mention 'all these' are apart of life anyway, so all im saying is perhaps its not necessarily a bad thing to have 'some of them' as long as you understand that 'nothing' lasts, so if you understand certin things about life and always try to promote goodness ad help each other etc - and accept life as it comes, accept yourself and others, then i dont think theres much else to think about!
I actually think that 'over thinking' is what can cause suffering, not necessarily the thing itself!
Im not saying im right or i know it all because i dont - im just saying im at a point where i realized i wanted my practice to be 'the pactice of no practice'
To just live and see what happens , (but obviously still knowing that nothing exists forever therefore i dont get too attached anyway)
I basically live spontaneously, in accordance with nature or life (or the tao or god whatever you want to call it.
"At the end of the day, I dont want to miss the miracle of life through 'searching the miracle" ~me~
"I dont want to have missed the answer through looking for the answer" ~me~
When all along its right *here*....
whether some see 'it' or not , is up to them! This is the part where you cannot explain the unexplainable! (Like the tao or zen)
Even if people manage to explain it, others wouldnt like it because it is so 'mundane' and *delusional*
(Only my opinion)
A fair explanation above.
Recently I read they renegotiated the AU so it is now a constant.
The timeline for these discoveries and the methods employed are interesting - many have proposed intriguing anachnorisms in this regard.
This is also applicable to myself at times, so don't take it personal.
Whether someone wants to be a christian,
Whether someone believes in god,
Whether someone believes in enlightenment,
All this is fine! But they all share one thing - they all only have 'right now' to do whatever it is they want to do!
And the truth is, that is the only reality there is! (This *right now*)
(Only my opinion)
Time. Not. Reality is weird
So just understanding this theory right could be a sufficient prove.
Anyway this paper could help:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1533-6077.2008.00151.x/abstract;jsessionid=39FC61DAD012D142C2F53E8FD1943A68.d04t03?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
More academy papers here:
http://scholar.google.cl/scholar?q=special+relativity+and+time+perception+illusion&btnG=&hl=es&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1
So, from what I understand, the "right now" or "present moment" can only be referred to as such because of its relation to the past and future. It doesn't exist on its own.
So the "present moment" is not so much an illusion as a scientifically inaccurate term, it seems.
But that doesn't mean that it's "wrong" to desire to become "more present" (I'm not sure if you were suggesting that though).
@zenmyste - but to get to your point of "practice of no practice," it took practice, no?
I don't mean to come off as antagonistic; I'm just having a hard time following your train of thought sometimes. I get that you're all about being present, and that sometimes "seeking" can present more problems than answers (I agree), but where does a moral/ethical framework come into play? I know many people who always talk about "living in the moment," but also get caught up in the emotions of the moment, do all sorts of ridiculous things that can potentially harm themselves and others because of "the moment." Not saying that you're like that, but these people are being "present," but in my view, in the wrong way.
Albert Einstein about this topic said:
" People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion".
Do not misunderstood this thinking that the time is a illusion or that doesn't exist causality in the physical world . That is something quite different.
All this is a very interesting but complex stuff
i think what has happened (to me) and what it comes down to is this; i think to have a 'practice' is for somebody who 'needs' a practice..and if they need something to get by or to help them then thats fine but for me i realized i was missing the most important part of life - the now! Believe it or not , trying to have a practice was causing me to miss the now! And for years i didnt realize that 'i actually' didnt 'need' a practice to live my life or to be 'happy' (because in fact no one does) because the ultimate practice is (what i call no practice) is Already In YOU! You are already where you need to be (we just have to finally realize it)
Of course i am not a master or teacher or guru so my words will be meaningless to everyone but i think its a shame that i cannot express fully what i mean! Its just something i understand in my head but in writing it sounds nonesence! lol
[Invincible summer] You mention about people getting caught up in the emotions of the now and doing ridiculous things that can harm themselves and others - - right, so there is half my point right there; i guess what i am trying to say is, its 'them' people that perhaps do obviously need help or a 'practice' - BUT for those who are not bringing harm to others yet who are on the spiritual path and yet still 'seeking' (even though theyre on the path) its those who i am talking 'about' - they dont need to be on the path if they now know the path of right from wrong so what are they 'still' seeking? i dont get it!! Because deep down they have already found it! They 'know' not to do bad anymore, for it causes suffering to themselves and others! What else are people looking for if its not to improve themselves as humans and to be happy? If we get to a stage where we 'naturally' live by the 5 precepts (which some people do) then the 'seeking' can end.. We should be able to live a life that 'just lives' and the practice becomes 'the way of no way' because now it is natural and spontaneous (the precepts become 'a part of us naturally') so we dont 'need' 'buddhism' or a 'religion' to study in the end! We will finally be able to live and enjoy our time 'right now' ! I think some people are looking for something that isnt there!!
So for me, i cant see where the delusion is????
If i am promoting good, and naturally living by the precepts but keeping my whole body , mind and soul in the present moment , then what is delusional about that?
But then this i where i go one step further; for those who still believe i am delusional (even though i still do all that i do) then im sorry but i believe its 'them' who are delusional because (for me) there is nothing else to do or practice! (This moment 'is' it)
"I guess it really does only come down to 'opinions'
For there are no solid facts about what is reality and what is not! "
This states that Buddhist doctrine is nonsense and that the Buddha was making it up as he went along. Of course there are solid facts about reality and people who know them. It's just that we cannot know this for sure unless we overcome, at least to some extent, our ignorance.
It is an odd thing to do, to say there are no facts about reality, for it is the admission that we don't know any, which means that we do not know that there there are none.
Buddhism is about the cessation of suffering and this cessation is only possible because of the nature of reality. If reality were different then no such cessation would be possible. And we could hardly say that Buddhist practice is a process of overcoming ignorance but that it gives us no knowledge of the facts. To see things as they are is to know facts about reality. Otherwise we could never be sure that we are seeing things as they really are and all the sages would be liars. Which is what some people think, of course, but not usually on Buddhist forums.
People like the Buddha and Lao-tsu do not make statements about reality that are not grounded in knowledge. This is why we can never falsify what they say.