Would you abandon your concern for your loved ones?

footiam · February 2013

After reading this, I'd really like your opinion: Would you abandon your concern for your loved ones?

Gilana Sutta: Ill
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2011–2013

On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Sakyans at Kapilavatthu in the Banyan Park. Now at that time many monks were at work making robes for the Blessed One, [thinking,] "When the robes are finished, at the end of the three months, the Blessed One will set out wandering."

Mahanama the Sakyan heard that many monks were at work making robes for the Blessed One, [thinking,] "When the robes are finished, at the end of the three months, the Blessed One will set out wandering." So he approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "I have heard that many monks are at work making robes for the Blessed One, [thinking,] 'When the robes are finished, at the end of the three months, the Blessed One will set out wandering.' But I haven't heard in the Blessed One's presence, haven't learned in the Blessed One's presence, how a discerning lay follower who is diseased, in pain, severely ill should be instructed by [another] discerning lay follower."

"Mahanama, a discerning lay follower [1] who is diseased, in pain, severely ill should be reassured by another discerning lay follower with four reassurances: 'Be reassured, friend, that you are endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One: "Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy & rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed."

"'Be reassured, friend, that you have verified confidence in the Dhamma: "The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves."

"'Be reassured, friend, that you have verified confidence in the Sangha: "The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well... who have practiced straight-forwardly... who have practiced methodically... who have practiced masterfully — in other words, the four pairs, the eight individuals — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world."

"'Be reassured, friend, that you have virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.'

"Mahanama, when a discerning lay follower who is diseased, in pain, severely ill has been reassured by another discerning lay follower with these four reassurances, he should be asked: 'Friend, are you concerned for your mother & father?' If he should say, 'I am concerned for my mother & father,' he should be told, 'You, my dear friend, are subject to death. If you feel concern for your mother & father, you're still going to die. If you don't feel concern for your mother & father, you're still going to die. It would be good if you abandoned concern for your mother & father.'

"If he should say, "My concern for my mother & father has been abandoned,' he should be asked, 'Friend, are you concerned for your wife & children?' If he should say, 'I am concerned for my wife & children,' he should be told, 'You, my dear friend, are subject to death. If you feel concern for your wife & children, you're still going to die. If you don't feel concern for your wife & children, you're still going to die. It would be good if you abandoned concern for your wife & children.'

"If he should say, "My concern for my wife & children has been abandoned,' he should be asked, 'Friend, are you concerned for the five strings of human sensuality?' If he should say, 'I am concerned for the five strings of human sensuality,' he should be told, 'Friend, divine sensual pleasures are more splendid & more refined than human sensual pleasures. It would be good if, having raised your mind above human sensual pleasures, you set it on the Devas of the Four Great Kings.'

"If he should say, 'My mind is raised above human sensual pleasures and is set on the Devas of the Four Great Kings,' he should be told, 'Friend, the Devas of the Thirty-three are more splendid & more refined than the Devas of the Four Great Kings. It would be good if, having raised your mind above the Devas of the Four Great Kings, you set it on the Devas of the Thirty-three.'

"If he should say, 'My mind is raised above the Devas of the Four Great Kings and is set on the Devas of the Thirty-three,' he should be told, 'Friend, the Devas of the Hours are more splendid & more refined than the Devas of the Thirty-three. It would be good if, having raised your mind above the Devas of the Thirty-three, you set it on the Devas of the Hours.'

"If he should say, 'My mind is raised above the Devas of the Thirty-three and is set on the Devas of the Hours,' he should be told, 'Friend, the Contented Devas are more splendid & more refined than the Devas of the Hours... the Devas Delighting in Creation are more splendid & more refined than the Contented Devas... the Devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others are more splendid & more refined than the Devas Delighting in Creation... the Brahma world is more splendid and more refined than the Devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others. It would be good if, having raised your mind above the Devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others, you set it on the Brahma world.'

"If he should say, 'My mind is raised above the Devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others and is set on the Brahma world,' he should be told, 'Friend, even the Brahma world is inconstant, impermanent, included in self-identity. It would be good if, having raised your mind above the Brahma world, you brought it to the cessation of self-identity.'

"If he should say, 'My mind is raised above the Brahma worlds and is brought to the cessation of self-identity,' then, I tell you, Mahanama, there is no difference — in terms of release — between the release of that lay follower whose mind is released and the release of a monk whose mind is released."

Linc · February 2013

I feel like people frequently misinterpret non-attachment directives like "abandon concern for loved ones" as "stop giving a damn about them". It's really the opposite of that, right? These ideas of cessation of attachment aren't supposed to leave you cold and empty. They're supposed to leave you full of compassion and joy. You can't just sit and think, "OK, to hell with this thing, that'll make me unattached to it" or else you just get attached to the scorn and you've completely missed the point.

andyrobyn · February 2013

My understanding is that " concern for " here is referencing an attachment to loved ones for sense of purpose and well being in this life. The other references are highlighting that all human beings, ie. ordained monks and lay persons, will die.

federica · February 2013

I think people have a huge issue with the words attachment/detachment.
Not only with the actual 'doing' - but understanding what is meant in the first place.
You'd think seasoned Buddhists would have an inkling, but I've met some experienced practitioners who believe it means closing down and shutting out....

Other problems include the spelling....

atachment/dettachment......

But I'll just let that one go......

Zero · February 2013

footiam said:

After reading this, I'd really like your opinion: Would you abandon your concern for your loved ones?

Yes - we only have our time - why spend it all being concerned?

sukhita · February 2013

When I read this sutta, it seemed to me that it (sutta) is about a lay follower who is sick and approaching death.

Mahanama, a discerning lay follower [1] who is diseased, in pain, severely ill ...... ......

I had the impression that the father, mother, wife, child (of the lay follower who is "severly ill") would normally be the ones who will be expressing "concern" at that time for the dying man. And the advice to the "dying" man is to incline his mind gradually away from the mundane world towards the deva realm (progressively) to nibbana. This is what came to my mind, but as is often the case, I might be completely off the target.

Zero · February 2013

footiam said:

a discerning lay follower [1] who is diseased, in pain, severely ill

I read it as the human condition.

pegembara · February 2013

'You, my dear friend, are subject to death. If you feel concern for your mother & father, you're still going to die. If you don't feel concern for your mother & father, you're still going to die. It would be good if you abandoned concern for your mother & father.'

That is the "bitter truth". When one is dying, it makes no difference whether you are concerned or not. You will only suffer by clinging.

When you are alive, you have the problem of not able to let go but when death approaches the problem becomes that of being unable to hold on to things no matter how one wishes to. Your concern for your loved ones will not help them and certainly will not help you. The best thing to do is to go in peace without any regrets.

Nirvana · February 2013

Well, firstoff, I muss fess up and say that I don't particularly enjoy the humdrumness of much of this sort of Buddhist Canon. I much prefer the non Pali.

That said, it's very difficult if not downright impossible, to translate from some tongues into another. I suspect that by "abandon concern" is meant something closer to "abandon your anxiety (or overconcern)." Afterall, does the same passage not also contain the words, "be reassured"?

In other words, "Be not anxious, be reassured! your loved ones will be OK, & are going to a goodly place! YOU need to assuage your tender emotions with this sure knowledge. Of course, right now things seem sad, but be of good faith... Be reassured in this!"

That's my reading.

Moreover, the passage doesn't talk about the mortality of those whom we love, but of our own. In other words, it addresses our powerlessness, in the end, to affect much difference, mortals that we be. We are all going to die and, therefore, what better time to get ready than the present? Why put it off?

BhikkhuJayasara · February 2013

"Mahanama, when a discerning lay follower who is diseased, in pain, severely ill has been reassured by another discerning lay follower with these four reassurances, he should be asked: 'Friend, are you concerned for your mother & father?' If he should say, 'I am concerned for my mother & father,' he should be told, 'You, my dear friend, are subject to death. If you feel concern for your mother & father, you're still going to die. If you don't feel concern for your mother & father, you're still going to die. It would be good if you abandoned concern for your mother & father.'

"If he should say, "My concern for my mother & father has been abandoned,' he should be asked, 'Friend, are you concerned for your wife & children?' If he should say, 'I am concerned for my wife & children,' he should be told, 'You, my dear friend, are subject to death. If you feel concern for your wife & children, you're still going to die. If you don't feel concern for your wife & children, you're still going to die. It would be good if you abandoned concern for your wife & children.'

concern is fear... fear is putting negativity into the future.. you are not in the present moment with mindfulness. Your time is short, worrying does not help your practice, even for those dear ones you have a strong attachment to( and of course naturally ther more attachment you have the more you will experience dukkha, this isn't a negative thing.. it just is the way it is). You will eventually die.. they will eventually die, concern is wasting your time to practice dhamma.

sukhita · February 2013

There's this "Gilana Sutta: III" and then there's this Gilana Sutta: Sick . There's some similarity with regard to what the "concern" of a dying person should be - that is inclining the mind to ones liberation.

Nirvana · February 2013

@sukhita, in a word, just die to self and take refuge in the Compassionate Buddha?

sukhita · February 2013

Nirvana said:
@sukhita, in a word, just die to self and take refuge in the Compassionate Buddha?

I was not commenting about my practice but merely pointing to the suttas reated to the OP directly or indirectly. But thanks for your advice. Metta.

sukhita · February 2013

"reated" should read "related".

Jason · February 2013

footiam said:
After reading this, I'd really like your opinion: Would you abandon your concern for your loved ones?

On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Sakyans at Kapilavatthu in the Banyan Park. Now at that time many monks were at work making robes for the Blessed One, [thinking,] "When the robes are finished, at the end of the three months, the Blessed One will set out wandering."

Mahanama the Sakyan heard that many monks were at work making robes for the Blessed One, [thinking,] "When the robes are finished, at the end of the three months, the Blessed One will set out wandering." So he approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "I have heard that many monks are at work making robes for the Blessed One, [thinking,] 'When the robes are finished, at the end of the three months, the Blessed One will set out wandering.' But I haven't heard in the Blessed One's presence, haven't learned in the Blessed One's presence, how a discerning lay follower who is diseased, in pain, severely ill should be instructed by [another] discerning lay follower."

"Mahanama, a discerning lay follower [1] who is diseased, in pain, severely ill should be reassured by another discerning lay follower with four reassurances: 'Be reassured, friend, that you are endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One: "Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy & rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed."

"'Be reassured, friend, that you have verified confidence in the Dhamma: "The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves."

"'Be reassured, friend, that you have verified confidence in the Sangha: "The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well... who have practiced straight-forwardly... who have practiced methodically... who have practiced masterfully — in other words, the four pairs, the eight individuals — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world."

"'Be reassured, friend, that you have virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.'

"Mahanama, when a discerning lay follower who is diseased, in pain, severely ill has been reassured by another discerning lay follower with these four reassurances, he should be asked: 'Friend, are you concerned for your mother & father?' If he should say, 'I am concerned for my mother & father,' he should be told, 'You, my dear friend, are subject to death. If you feel concern for your mother & father, you're still going to die. If you don't feel concern for your mother & father, you're still going to die. It would be good if you abandoned concern for your mother & father.'

"If he should say, "My concern for my mother & father has been abandoned,' he should be asked, 'Friend, are you concerned for your wife & children?' If he should say, 'I am concerned for my wife & children,' he should be told, 'You, my dear friend, are subject to death. If you feel concern for your wife & children, you're still going to die. If you don't feel concern for your wife & children, you're still going to die. It would be good if you abandoned concern for your wife & children.'

"If he should say, "My concern for my wife & children has been abandoned,' he should be asked, 'Friend, are you concerned for the five strings of human sensuality?' If he should say, 'I am concerned for the five strings of human sensuality,' he should be told, 'Friend, divine sensual pleasures are more splendid & more refined than human sensual pleasures. It would be good if, having raised your mind above human sensual pleasures, you set it on the Devas of the Four Great Kings.'

"If he should say, 'My mind is raised above human sensual pleasures and is set on the Devas of the Four Great Kings,' he should be told, 'Friend, the Devas of the Thirty-three are more splendid & more refined than the Devas of the Four Great Kings. It would be good if, having raised your mind above the Devas of the Four Great Kings, you set it on the Devas of the Thirty-three.'

"If he should say, 'My mind is raised above the Devas of the Four Great Kings and is set on the Devas of the Thirty-three,' he should be told, 'Friend, the Devas of the Hours are more splendid & more refined than the Devas of the Thirty-three. It would be good if, having raised your mind above the Devas of the Thirty-three, you set it on the Devas of the Hours.'

"If he should say, 'My mind is raised above the Devas of the Thirty-three and is set on the Devas of the Hours,' he should be told, 'Friend, the Contented Devas are more splendid & more refined than the Devas of the Hours... the Devas Delighting in Creation are more splendid & more refined than the Contented Devas... the Devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others are more splendid & more refined than the Devas Delighting in Creation... the Brahma world is more splendid and more refined than the Devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others. It would be good if, having raised your mind above the Devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others, you set it on the Brahma world.'

"If he should say, 'My mind is raised above the Devas Wielding Power over the Creations of Others and is set on the Brahma world,' he should be told, 'Friend, even the Brahma world is inconstant, impermanent, included in self-identity. It would be good if, having raised your mind above the Brahma world, you brought it to the cessation of self-identity.'

"If he should say, 'My mind is raised above the Brahma worlds and is brought to the cessation of self-identity,' then, I tell you, Mahanama, there is no difference — in terms of release — between the release of that lay follower whose mind is released and the release of a monk whose mind is released."

Based on my reading, this sutta is essentially advice on how to comfort and, in some sense, instruct someone who's gravely ill in order to help them die peacefully. When it comes to the part about abandoning concern for one's mother and father, wife and children, etc., one thing that a gravely ill person may do is spend a great deal of their time worrying about the fate of their loved ones after they're gone instead of inclining their mind towards peace and relinquishment. Either way, one is subject to death, and worrying about others on one's death bed won't do one any good. By abandoning such concerns, one's mind can more easily incline towards peace and accept death with less fear and reservation. And if I were able, I'd relinquish such concerns when the time came to leave this world.

sukhita · February 2013

@Jason
Well said.

andyrobyn · February 2013

pegembara said:
'You, my dear friend, are subject to death. If you feel concern for your mother & father, you're still going to die. If you don't feel concern for your mother & father, you're still going to die. It would be good if you abandoned concern for your mother & father.'

That is the "bitter truth". When one is dying, it makes no difference whether you are concerned or not. You will only suffer by clinging.

When you are alive, you have the problem of not able to let go but when death approaches the problem becomes that of being unable to hold on to things no matter how one wishes to. Your concern for your loved ones will not help them and certainly will not help you. The best thing to do is to go in peace without any regrets.

I was with my cousin in hospital as she was dying. She had been diagnosed with lung cancer at the same time as her only child, at 40 years of age had recently married and was having his first child. It was a very aggressive type of cancer and within 6 weeks of the diagnosis she had one course of chemotherapy, which affected her greatly and had a stroke and a heart attack from a blood clots and was in hospital, fading in and out of consciousness and it appeared to us she was fighting to stay here.
It was difficult to observe and a very sad time. I encouraged visitors to talk with her about any unfinished business they had together and to say goodbye. No-one else in my family has a Buddhist practice, though mine is well respected and her daughter in law is Buddhist and had her monks visit as well.

Zero · February 2013

Interesting angle

http://sasanarakkha.org/talks/2004/06/gilana-sutta-sick-person-discourse.shtml

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.022.than.html

EverythingIsCoolMike · February 2013

Hi all! I'm new to this forum and I am ecstatic this is the first post I read. Recently, during meditation, I had a terrifying experience. I saw my family die. They were gone in a very 'real' way. In the moment I really thought I lost them forever. Poof! Just like that. I was then left to wonder, "without them, who am I?" Then came the profound realization... " I am them! They will never be gone because we are always together and always have been. We are one in the same" Attachment in this sense is a fear of loss, and fear is not love. We need to realize that our loved ones are not the people we see today, they are much more as are we. Death is just a part of the journey that we all endure and true loss only happens in our heads, for our loved ones are always alive in our hearts. Hope this helps... Please offer advice for me if you have it, thanks! Namaste.

sukhita · February 2013

@EverythingIsCoolMike - Welcome to the forum. Interesting post

shadowleaver · February 2013

No.

lamaramadingdong · February 2013

To me, the goal is to care more about others than I do about myself.

lobster · February 2013

Would you abandon your concern for your loved ones?

Now that I am almost a bodhisattva and subject to delusions and arisings of bodhicitta, I am tending to love everyone and everything . . . Even my own shortcomings and metta extremism . . .
:wave:

robot · February 2013

lobster said:
Would you abandon your concern for your loved ones?

Now that I am almost a bodhisattva and subject to delusions and arisings of bodhicitta, I am tending to love everyone and everything . . . Even my own shortcomings and metta extremism . . .
:wave:

I thought you were going for the gusto. Bypassing the bodhisattva stage and going for straight for Buddhahood.

lobster · February 2013

I thought you were going for the gusto. Bypassing the bodhisattva stage and going for straight for Buddhahood.

. . . Too much thinking . . . I may have got Buddhahood confused with Bollywood . . . Who knows what will happen . . . Waiting for signs of prescience to emerge . . . [nope nothing]

Vastmind · February 2013

'Would you abandon your concern for your loved ones?'

No way, Jose!

FoibleFull · February 2013

The more we are attached to our loved ones, the less-well we actually love. Our attachment makes us selfish.
As one grows in their dharma practice, they are supposed to be expanding their concern for others beyond their own selfish circle of attachment. And, increasingly, all living beings are supposed to become more and more our "loved ones".

I'll let you know when/if I get there.

andyrobyn · February 2013

lobster said:
I thought you were going for the gusto. Bypassing the bodhisattva stage and going for straight for Buddhahood.

. . . Too much thinking . . . I may have got Buddhahood confused with Bollywood . . . Who knows what will happen . . . Waiting for signs of prescience to emerge . . . [nope nothing]

May I inquire where you are looking for signs ... oops, maybe best you do not answer that question out loud/ online - lol

seeker242 · February 2013

In the context of what he meant by that, yes. In the context of what most people think he meant, no. So, yes and no.

footiam · February 2013

Lincoln said:
I feel like people frequently misinterpret non-attachment directives like "abandon concern for loved ones" as "stop giving a damn about them". It's really the opposite of that, right? These ideas of cessation of attachment aren't supposed to leave you cold and empty. They're supposed to leave you full of compassion and joy. You can't just sit and think, "OK, to hell with this thing, that'll make me unattached to it" or else you just get attached to the scorn and you've completely missed the point.

Since it is frequently misinterpreted, it ought then to be frequently discussed to clear the air.

footiam · March 2013

sukhita said:
When I read this sutta, it seemed to me that it (sutta) is about a lay follower who is sick and approaching death.
Mahanama, a discerning lay follower [1] who is diseased, in pain, severely ill ...... ......

I had the impression that the father, mother, wife, child (of the lay follower who is "severly ill") would normally be the ones who will be expressing "concern" at that time for the dying man. And the advice to the "dying" man is to incline his mind gradually away from the mundane world towards the deva realm (progressively) to nibbana. This is what came to my mind, but as is often the case, I might be completely off the target.

That's enligtening. I suppose when we are approaching death, there is no need to grasp on to what belongs to the living. Thanks!

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