All road leads to Rome?

cptshrk · May 2013

In your opinion, does the path of self-knowledge through experience leads to the same realization as concentrated effort through meditation?

black_tea · May 2013

Perhaps? I can't really say as I am lacking in the realization department. I would assunme that it would depend at least in part on the individual as we aren't all wired the same way.

genkaku · May 2013

@cptshrk -- If I understand the question correctly, you are asking if, simply by getting older, a peaceful and clear life might evolve. From my point of view, the answer is yes since from one Buddhist perspective, everyone is already enlightened. No one is exempt.

The difficulty lies in the willingness to realize/actualize what is already a fact.

The number of older and more experienced people who are, in fact, at peace in their lives is far from enormous, so simply getting older and gaining experience does not seem to be an adequate tool to guarantee something called "realization."

Simultaneously, even people with long and determined meditation under their belt can miss their own mark and remain in a world of fidgeting and fussing ... with a 'spiritual' overlay. It may all look pretty good, but the dime hasn't dropped. No guarantees in this realm either.

So, if it is possible to fail through hard-won experience and it is possible to fail through hard-won meditation practice, which course is best if anyone wants to be at peace?

My vote is for any format that causes a person to reflect deeply, to focus the mind without interruption, and to pay attention where attention has been lacking. Meditation is a good format, but the only way of knowing that is to try it ... and keep trying it ... while leaving failure and success to less focused individuals. There is no guarantee ...

Or rather, you are the guarantee ...

You just don't know it yet.

PS. The Zen student Christmas Humphreys once wrote approximately, "All roads lead to Rome, but you take your road and I take mine. When we get there, we can both laugh."

person · May 2013

I can't really say for myself about the realizations gained through each and different schools say different things about it, but it has been shown pretty conclusively that meditation confers many practical benefits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation

Jeffrey · May 2013

Meditation is an experience so it will not get you off the hook of self knowledge. Otherwise it is a nice bubble bath.

Sabre · May 2013

There may be different roads that lead to Rome, but certainly not all roads do. Most don't, in fact.

The road the Buddha suggested is the 8-fold path, which is balanced practice including all facets of life. Meditation inside and outside of a sitting posture is certainly a part of that.

cptshrk · May 2013

My asking lies in the fact that I have had great insight exploring both sphere; living intensely and consciously experimenting with drugs, sex and the arts as well as from an ascetic approach of vegan diet, study and meditation. Therefore I am confused as to what path to follow, as they both are counter-productive to each other's aim from what I have experienced... My first life - so to say - consisted of a form of ignorant bliss, while the second gave me a glimpse of the unseen following a breakthrough in a meditation where I felt my physical body collapse on itself and dissolve into the surrounding, followed by a deep sense of belonging and bliss. What's up with me?

black_tea · May 2013

I'm doubtful that ignorant bliss is going to get you to enlightenment. When you first posted the topic I thought you meant doing other Buddhist practices rather than meditation (it's been a long day, what can I say). I think taking a more introspective and ethical approach to life will give you perhaps better tools to understand your experiences and put them in some kind of context -- you'd be going into things with a clearer mind. The trouble with your first life is that you may have some intense experiences, but do they have a deeper meaning, or are they simply a reaction of the drugs you took? It seems like things could get muddled very quickly.

Jeffrey · May 2013

I think you can only answer that for yourself! I miss drugs and a lot of parties. My body felt good at times and I was young. But the meditative practices produce a kind of peace and I feel it is going somewhere whereas drugs are only going towards more drugs. We have some members, myself included, who have experienced this and come out the other side.

cptshrk · May 2013

Reflecting upon that @black_tea, I think I am afraid all my efforts will be in vain. As I see it right now, being torn between both worlds, is that absence of suffering lies within what I have experienced during the breakthrough meditation. Leading me to question if joy is to be found experiencing joy living to the fullest or through developing a deeper sense of connection with, well, all-that-is.

I'm trying to express my state of mind as clearly as possible and am finding it quite difficult. I apologize if I am vague or confusing.

cptshrk · May 2013

Thanks for you input @Jeffrey. I am aware that the answer is within me, but it all comes down to this: is enlightenment a necessity?

Jeffrey · May 2013

The joy of drugs is real but it is conditioned with seeds of suffering also. The big hangover and the mental pollution. We tend to want to stake out a little corner of samsara where we can make our stand and be happy. You can do that and combine that with the meditation and peacefulness. But it cannot be full enlightenment if it is conditioned. Our heart can open to any situation and developing that quality will serve better in hard times. And those come too.

black_tea · May 2013

cptshrk said:
Thanks for you input @Jeffrey. I am aware that the answer is within me, but it all comes down to this: is enlightenment a necessity?

That is purely up to you. Honestly, I don't focus a lot on enlightenment as it's not an easy concept to completely wrap my head around. But I like a lot of the things that Buddhism teaches, and there's a lot of good things that come with this journey even if it isn't always easy. It's a challenging religion in many ways because it makes you really take a long hard look at your behavior and thought processes and encourages the changing of a lot of long held habits. When I was younger and spiritually searching I was looking more for what would mesh with the things I already believed. I didn't really want to change what I was doing. Now that I'm a little older, I see the value in being challenged.

Perhaps it may be helpful to consider what kind of person you would like to be, and what do you hope to get out of Buddhism. Likewise what do you get out recreational drug use, and how long are those things likely to last? What does living life to the fullest really mean, and are things like drugs and casual sex really necessary to live a full life?

cptshrk · May 2013

Thank you again @Jeffrey, fact of the matter is I've been sober for over a month now and I'm beginning to question my decision. The Buddha spoke of the middle way, isn't it composed of elements from both lives I referred to above?

Jeffrey · May 2013

The middle way sometimes refers to Sano's lute. The strings too loose or too tight. You can't take the precepts for intoxicants but you could take the other four. I shouldn't say can't but you shouldn't make a vow you know you will break because it disturbs the power of your word of truth. That is part of right effort from the eightfold path.

Sometimes the middle way refers to the middle way between eternalism and nihilism. I'm not sure that's relevant in your question.

I practiced Buddhism for 5 years even though I lived with a 'woman in distress' who drank a lot and kind of a party life. For me though I was not into the drinking much. The party and the woman helped energize me and I wasn't on a high enough dose of meds so I was basically in some state of mania most of the time. Now I am on a LOT of drugs prescription to combat voices and I am very sedated. But I am more spacious of mind not being lead into conflicts and drama. I still do some sensual things like drink occasionally and smoking tobacco in a pipe. What I have found is that you can use sense pleasures to observe what happens in your mind. I read a book when I was young called "Chocolate to Morphine" by Andrew Weil. It's about drugs from a doctor who travels around to tribes and studies the effects of drugs on the people. It has a kind of liberal vibe, but it makes the point that relationships to drugs are not the same for all people. The same drug can really eff up some people due to how they relate to it and the set of their psychology and the setting of their life (right action, right speach, right livelyhood perhaps).

cptshrk · May 2013

Thanks for the quick response @black_tea, defining what person I want to be is rather hard to me, as I'm struggling to figure out who I am.

Buddhism and meditation have been a way for to gain another kind of knowledge about myself and the world around me, yet I fail to see how it over-archs other type of knowledge deriving from other types of experiences. I am not talking about indulging in drugs every day here, but merely enjoying a drunken night on red wine once in while and getting in touch with another part of myself...

lobster · May 2013

cptshrk said:
In your opinion, does the path of self-knowledge through experience leads to the same realization as concentrated effort through meditation?

No.

Buddhism does not lead to Rome, it allows a settling outside of duality.
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/mahamudra/karma_kagyu_mm/milarepa_realize_true_nature_mind.html

Jeffrey · May 2013

Nice link. I guess I am a fan of Milarepa you could say.

cptshrk · May 2013

@lobster it is this very duality that is crushing me at the moment...

lobster · May 2013

What's up with me?

Welcome to the Middle Way. You thought it would be easy?
Perhaps it gets harder but we don't mind so much . . .
Do you have another route?

cptshrk · May 2013

Thanks for the laugh @lobster! I somehow thought it was going to be easy, you're right. I'm a very intense person and having experienced with extremes I find it hard to relax and let go.

lobster · May 2013

:thumbsup:
Intensity is good. Wishy washy new agers have little chance of success, until they develop a little chutzpah. Fanatical Buddhism is not always fashionable even amongst some sanghas. Just as some Muslims are of the opinion that Jihad is an external rather than internal war.

The Middle Way is balanced, moderating but all consuming.

Easy things can be said. Hard path has to be embraced fully. We all know that.

"Live contemplating the body. Contemplate internally and externally. Contemplate the origination of things in the body. Contemplate the dissolution of things in the body."
- The Buddha

You sound like you'll do fine. Be kind to the fish (still having a few problems with that one myself) :wave:

Jason · May 2013

cptshrk said:
In your opinion, does the path of self-knowledge through experience leads to the same realization as concentrated effort through meditation?

Are they mutually exclusive? Doesn't concentrated effort through meditation lead to self-knowledge through experience? If you're talking about the types of experience and the various ways to approach them, however, that's another subject entirely.

Chrysalid · May 2013

cptshrk said:
Reflecting upon that @black_tea, I think I am afraid all my efforts will be in vain. As I see it right now, being torn between both worlds, is that absence of suffering lies within what I have experienced during the breakthrough meditation. Leading me to question if joy is to be found experiencing joy living to the fullest or through developing a deeper sense of connection with, well, all-that-is.

Does absence of suffering equate to joy?

My opinion is that joy is fleeting, whether it's experienced through drugs/sex or through altered mental states during meditation. Contentment with existing in the present moment, whatever physical/mental conditions that might entail, is how I see enlightenment manifesting.

To answer the OP question, whatever allows you to glimpse beyond the imaginary world your mind projects will help with realisation. Be it by letting go of the monologue through concentrating on breathing in meditation, or by gaining insight into how the mind interacts with the world through experience.

Florian · May 2013

cptshrk said:
Thanks for you input @Jeffrey. I am aware that the answer is within me, but it all comes down to this: is enlightenment a necessity?

I do not understand this question. Maybe I'm being dense but I've tried a few times and still don't understand it. What would it mean to say that enlightenment is necessary or unnecessary?

lobster · May 2013

@Florian,
Suffering is optional. Time wasted in unenlightened being is like sleeping through the main event.

I did not become a Buddhist for relaxation. All my legs are paddling for the far shore.

. . . watch my wake

John_Spencer · May 2013

lobster said:
@Florian,
Suffering is optional. Time wasted in unenlightened being is like sleeping through the main event.

I did not become a Buddhist for relaxation. All my legs are paddling for the far shore.

. . . watch my wake

A crustacean using his crust rather than a crafty raft?

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