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questions regarding mind
misecmisc1
I am a HinduIndia Veteran
hi all,
while browsing through internet, came across this web-page : http://buddha-inside.blogspot.in/2009/05/self-liberation-through-seeing-with.html
on reading it, i saw the lines:
Everything that appears is but a manifestation of mind.
Even though the entire external inanimate universe appears to you, it is but a manifestation of mind.
Even though all of the sentient beings of the six realms appear to you they are but a manifestation of mind.
it seems to me that everything is manifestation of mind because it is the mind which experiences everything. but then the question arises - what is mind? does mind exist or does not exist? my thinking says: if mind did not exist, then thoughts could not arise, but since thoughts arise in mind, so mind exist. but mind also cannot exist independently. so mind neither exists, nor does not exist. :eek2:
Is mind empty?
my understanding: Emptiness as i understand is empty of inherent existence, that is empty of essence. So if mind was having essence, then it can exist independently - but mind depends on body - so mind is empty of inherent existence.
please share your thoughts about above questions about mind. is my above thinking and above understanding correct? if not correct, then please correct it.
on reading the above link, it seemed to me that it is same as zen method of meditation of just sitting. So does the above link has same or different method of meditation from zen? please suggest. thanks in advance.
while browsing through internet, came across this web-page : http://buddha-inside.blogspot.in/2009/05/self-liberation-through-seeing-with.html
on reading it, i saw the lines:
Everything that appears is but a manifestation of mind.
Even though the entire external inanimate universe appears to you, it is but a manifestation of mind.
Even though all of the sentient beings of the six realms appear to you they are but a manifestation of mind.
it seems to me that everything is manifestation of mind because it is the mind which experiences everything. but then the question arises - what is mind? does mind exist or does not exist? my thinking says: if mind did not exist, then thoughts could not arise, but since thoughts arise in mind, so mind exist. but mind also cannot exist independently. so mind neither exists, nor does not exist. :eek2:
Is mind empty?
my understanding: Emptiness as i understand is empty of inherent existence, that is empty of essence. So if mind was having essence, then it can exist independently - but mind depends on body - so mind is empty of inherent existence.
please share your thoughts about above questions about mind. is my above thinking and above understanding correct? if not correct, then please correct it.
on reading the above link, it seemed to me that it is same as zen method of meditation of just sitting. So does the above link has same or different method of meditation from zen? please suggest. thanks in advance.
0
Comments
But if we don't smell anything, which often is the case when we are not paying attention to it, it's incorrect to say there is such a thing as "smell". Because no experience of smell is there at the moment. If mental impressions go, it's also inaccurate to speak of a mind. So mind is a conceptualization of what's really going on, which are all processes without a core.
Consciousness does not depend on body. Vice-versa.
seems like there is difference in consciousness to which we are relating to - are you talking about Consciousness or Atman or Soul or Buddha-Nature or some similar word. so can you please explain your statement - Consciousness does not depend on body. thanks in advance.
By the way, one question regarding meditation - is the meditation described in the above link same as Zen meditation of just sitting, in which we do not try to do anything, rather just try to be aware of whatever is arising in the present moment? or is the meditation described above something different than Zen meditation of just sitting? please suggest. thanks in advance.
"... [U]nsurpassed is the Blessed Lord's way of teaching Dhamma in regard to the attainment of vision.... Here, some ascetic or Brahmin, by means of ardour, endeavour, application, vigilence and due attention, reaches such a level of concentration that he ... comes to know the unbroken stream of human consciousness as established both in this world and in the next...." (Sampasadaniya Sutta, DN 28), Ven.[32]
ie not a singular conscious entity but a stream of consciousness that spans multiple lives.
OR: Ananda, describes "consciousness" in a way that shows it to be a condition for body and not vice-versa
"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"
"No, lord."
"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"
"No, lord."
"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"
"No, lord."
"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."
Discourses such as this appear to describe a consciousness that is an animating phenomenon capable of spanning lives thus giving rise to rebirth.
Can there be a thinker without thoughts?
In other words the mind does not stand alone.
What if there is only seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking but the seer, hearer, thinker is only a mistaken belief?
"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.067.than.html See above.
'The unbroken stream of human consciousness as established both in this world and in the next' that Sariputta describes cannot depend on body. It transcends them.
Here are my thoughts about this:
You are not going to find adequate knowledge on this that will help you other than a whole load of varying views on what mind is.
Since this is talking about Dzogchen then one has to find a teacher and receive direct introduction of Dzogchen. Then what Padmasambhava is pointing to will be clear in a direct, non-conceptual expression.
Then all doubts will be dispelled. Trying to understand this in any other lens will only breed confusion, imho.
Good luck.
The sub-conscious (1), the perception/imagination consciousness (2) and the store (memory ) consciousness (3)
That is why people in different circumstances can experience a loss of one or the other and still survive albeit in a limited capacity. Lost your memory but all other functions are OK.
it seems to me that everything is manifestation of mind because it is the mind which experiences everything. but then the question arises - what is mind? does mind exist or does not exist? my thinking says: if mind did not exist, then thoughts could not arise, but since thoughts arise in mind, so mind exist. but mind also cannot exist independently. so mind neither exists, nor does not exist.
Correct, thats why we need three distinct subconsciousness (minds) to come together for us humans, just as we need fuel, a spark and oxygen for fire. The fire is dependently originated from the three coming together.
currently i am trying the zen meditation method, but i am not sure if i am doing it correctly because i do not know if there is anything to do in zen meditation except to not do anything. but still just to clarify, i am doing these steps (please correct if anything is wrong below, or add if anything else is needed) :
- sitting in a comfortable position, with back slightly straight (though keeping back straight with its natural curve is difficult for me, so i try to sit in whichever manner either normal cross-legged, burmese position, half-lotus etc, whichever is comfortable to me, even changing postures during sitting when the pain increases in my legs)
- just being aware of whatever is arising in present moment, not analyzing, not figuring it out etc, whatever arises either hearing external/internal sounds, thoughts coming, sensations of air touching body etc.
- except the above two things, nothing else needs to be done
please confirm if above are ok, or please correct them if they are wrong, or please add anything if missing above.
now coming to what i have observed during my meditation, regarding above step 2 , i have a confusion - the confusion is this - (a) do i need to try to be aware of whatever is arising, or (b) i just sit in a relaxed way and note whatever is arising - the difference between these two which i find is that in approach (a) if i try to be aware, then i am more observant, but it seems to me like i am doing something like doing of trying to be aware - but if if go with second approach (b), i am less observant and there are small periods, which just pass by and i do not know if i was fully aware in it or not. i know i am not sleeping in both these two approaches - so which approach is better?
moreover, i have observed during sitting that there is something in me, which is always trying to feel something - it is difficult to explain, but still trying to explain - for example, in the room if fan is on, then the air touches my body, so something inside me tries to figure out exactly where is the air getting felt in the body - i think this is what is said to try to hold onto things - but i know there is no need to figure out, because by the time i will figure out, something else will be gone - moreover, i have read it is not possible to hold onto the present moment and theoretically i understand that this is ok - but when i sit, something inside is always trying to figure out the things like in this case where exactly the air is getting felt on my body, now if i say to myself it is not necessary to know exactly where the air is felt, then something inside me starts to question - so am i aware properly? i felt air but i do not know which body part exactly felt that air. as another example, something inside me is always saying - how am i feeling right now? - as if there is something to feel in now - but if i try to feel, will that show i am not aware of whatever is going in present moment. may be these questions seem silly to you all, but you can consider me to be stupid enough to not know these things, so please suggest regarding these queries. thanks in advance.
As your link affirms one needs a root guru to point out the natural state. That is the definite cause to recognize and live in such realization.
Hopefully your karma will carry you to a teacher or at least a webcast.
I regards to zen. Its probably not a good idea to try to understand Dzogchen from the lens of Zen. Zen is a sutryana teaching and Dzoghen isn't even really part of the three yanas.
I would read pretty much anythjng by Steve Hagen to clarify you Zen inquiries.
Zen points to this moment over and over and over again. But its not like there is a moment that holds the ground. Practice is seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling, thinking, and hearing.
Everything is right there in your human life. This centerless unfolding is it. That is the jewel of zen, wordless transmission.
I strongly, strongly advise you to seek a sangha or teacher. Even to work with one via phone or even online. You always have good questions and seek to clarify details. This is great but its misguided because none of us are teachers on here. You need someone who you can trust to help you actualize your life.
Circumstances are a bitch though. But sometimes you just gotta rearrange things in life. Practice, practicr, practice, practice. None of these words or really anything you read will solve that hungry mind. You need to experience everything and live it.
Wish you well.
I just joined treeleaf as they have virtual sits and online connected Zen teachers.
http://www.treeleaf.org/
Yesterday I printed out the chanting manual, bit of metta in there. Then connected with google+ to sit with them. I was able to follow the practice but did not connect yet. Ten people sit in real time.
Also was not sure of the Kesa methodology, so ended up with a folded red blanket balanced on my head . . . Last time I used a Kesa, they were provided.
So far I have found the teachers very insightful and kind. Go Zen Sangha.
The technique they use is meditation and walking and a daily sit. I could be enlightened by the end of the month if not sooner . . . or if lucky not at all . . . :wave:
@Cinorjer: Thanks for your reply too.
before 2 years i.e. mid-2011, i was living a normal materialistic life. used to drink beer/alcohol every weekend, enjoyed movies based on sex specially blue films, always tried to make things go my way to satisfy my ego, used abusive language on people lower than me to show myself superior, always trying to get more money, more promotion, more praise. it was going coolly, if i speak honestly. i was not knowing if there was anything except this material world.
i got married in 2009 and my daughter was born in 2011 - then 2 months after my daughter was born, i was just browsing internet and accidently i read an article which stated that to have a healthy body, we should have healthy mind and healthy spirit. for healthy mind - it said to do reading books. for healthy spirit - it said to practice some spiritual tasks like prayers etc. then i thought if i read a religious book, then by reading, my mind will be healthy and being religious book, my spirit can be healthy. since i am a Hindu and i have bought Bhagwad Geeta few years back (though i had not read it at that time), then i thought let me read Bhagwad Geeta to make my mind and spirit healthy. then i read whole Shreemad Bhagwad Geeta. then i came to know about Atman and the goal of human life is Self-Realization. it said about meditation and then since the commentary had references to Yoga Sutras by Patanjali, so i searched over internet for it and got some useful link and studied it. Then i came to know something about how to do meditation and i started meditating by doing pranayama breathing practices. then one day, i thought my meditation is not going anywhere, so i was thinking where to find information about meditation. Then suddenly a thought came to my mind that in my class 8 in history subject, i studied that Gautam Buddha attained Nirvana under a tree - so i thought Buddha may have meditated and then i thought to search if after enlightenment, Buddha taught something regarding meditation. i searched over internet and found the book - what buddha taught - read it completely, then came to know about anicca, dukkha, anatta and 4 NT, 8FP and anapanasati meditation. but since my meditation queries were not answered, on internet i searched on google about some meditation query - then in search results, a thread about this site was in a link, i opened this site and registered with it - started asking questions - then from the posts came to know more about dependent origination, got links for teachings of Forest tradition teachers like Ajahn Chah, Brahm, Thinosaro Bhikkhu, Sumedho etc - saw dhamma talks of Ajahn Brahm. Then tried to meditate on breath as said in Anapanasati Sutta and Satipathana Sutta - but since i am a hopeless meditation case, so i was not able to meditate on breath. then i came to know about Zen - then the above link of Padmasambhava came up in browsing internet. Till now, i have not bought a single book on Buddhism - but i am really thankful to people from my heart, who developed internet, because if internet was not there, as you can see from my above life story, i would not have been able to study about Buddhism.
well, whatever is written above, happened in just last 2 years (not even complete 2 years, something like 1 year and 10 months).
i do not have any friends currently - because my school places were different, so whatever friends i made, they were lost in coming years with new friends in new place. i have changed my work companies, since i started working and the only friends are the colleagues who work along with me - but they are not friends, rather since we work at the same company, so we just know each other - just formal hi, hello and some formal talks and then work related talks. The only persons which i have in my life currently are my parents, my wife and my daughter.
the wierd part is after i got married and my daughter was born, then 2 months later, accidentally i struck spirituality. i don't know what life wants from me or what karma backlog i have. after i read Bhagwad Geeta, i have reduced drinking and eating non-veg. for the last 1 year, i think i have not taken a single drink and also i have not eaten non-veg for the last 1 year.
my defilements of lust, anger, greed, attachment, hatred and ego are still in my mind currently. as far as meditation is concerned, i now try to do zen meditation of 'just sitting' - even though still my meditation is not going anywhere, still i try to just sit currently.
so if somebody has read till now, i am sorry for boring you with my weird, directionless, useless, boring life story.
@John_Spencer: well, i did not understand it completely. so please explain in some more detail. if we are saying there is a consciousness which is spanning multiple lives, then if this consciousness does not depend on body, then on which thing this consciousness depends on? DO says consciousness depends on fabrications of body and mind - so in a way, this consciousness depends on body.
what is this stream of consciousness that spans multiple lives? can you please explain this sutta in more detail as to what is exactly meant by - comes to know the unbroken stream of human consciousness as established both in this world and in the next ? does it mean that our consciousness in this life is different from the consciousness of past life? thanks for explaining.
on reading the above sutta again, a thought came to me - is the unbroken stream of human consciousness referring to awareness inside us - means the awareness in our current life is the same as the awareness in our past life? but if this is the case, then this awareness depends on body because if there is no sense-organ including mind in body, then where will awareness arise? please suggest.
hi all,
please suggest. thanks in advance.
Or a question just came to my mind - in above statements, i am assuming that mind stays in body but how do i know it - when i cannot see mind, how do i know mind is inside or outside body - so a question arises - can mind stay without body? if this can be the case, then how different shall this mind be from Soul or Atman or Consciousness or Buddha-nature or any other similar word?
Mind but does rely on body but body arises dependent on the ignorance and craving in mind (consciousness). Consciousness continues after physical death so is not reliant on the body.
This 'stream of human consciousness' is what the Buddha can see when he looks back into his past lives, it is the factor that 'animates' a human body.
Buddha's denying of atman insists that we cannot look on this conscious stream as a fixed thing 'belonging' to one person but is a 'stream' that leads from one life to the next.
Does that make sense?
Lives lead from one to the next taking 'habits' with them - the actions and tendencies of earlier lives will produce 'fruits' in this life.
Similarly, actions in this life will produce 'fruits' in the next.
So you could think of being able to look back through all the lives that led to this one.
A single stream of consciousness, but a stream, not fixed, constantly changing.
The Buddha developed the ability to look back at the stream of many lives that had led to his own - there are stories of his previous lives called the Jataka Tales.
So when you say "there is nothing in that stream of consciousness which relates to a person" I think that is your misunderstanding.
The truth of rebirth is subtle and more difficult for those of us from a culture that are unfamiliar with the idea of rebirth.
Hope that helps?
First develop certainty in these hypotheses. Ask and inquire with a positive mind.
There was a thread recently entitled "Waiting for the right question" on these forums. I believe that is a very wonderful and fundamental approach to matters of the mind and Reality (with a capital r).
The Buddha-dharma is The Way to the End of Suffering. It is the Ultimate Medicine.
There are 3 turnings of the Wheel of Dharma. The first turning is about karma and rebirth, about good action bringing about wholesome resultant states. Buddha taught the Dharma progressively, in his brilliance and transcendence, in order to swiftly and wholly establish beings in the Unexcelled State.
So when asking questions, it's good to know how they relate. Take your time to investigate.
"Mind" is the hub of the wheel of experience. Ultimately, we are looking deep at our basic knowledge, our most ordinary knowledge about life: sight, sound, taste, touch, odor, thoughts, and in general one might add atmosphere before arriving at Mind. To understand "mind" is interesting, but to understand how to relieve Suffering in its entirety, to eradicate pain, sickness, death, and woe from the cosmos and all experiencers/participants thereof, is the sole aim and ambition of Buddhism.
Freedom is individually realized, and it is realized by losing oneself in the understanding of an interconnected world. In Buddhism our fundamental shift is from the material world being almighty to the Mind being almighty. "He who believes he is able is able."
We balance the body and mind so we can investigate this subtle and ultimate reflective nature with ease. Kinda like "getting in the zone" only the zone is utter absence of knots and bumps in the seams of the Cosmos.
...
Some simple steps that will improve your meditation if you are looking for a simple pattern to help you expand View:
start with any combination of these:
- send "awareness pulses" to your extremities and inflate your legs, torso, neck, and head with awareness briefly. Part of Proper Action is getting in touch with the physical body.
- stretch your hamstrings
- sing a song! Put your aspirations into words, or into sounds even, and sing a little or hum. We can start with an aspiration as elegant and beautiful as "may all beings be happy" -- it's okay if we don't feel this deeply at first, we are developing understanding and insight, and really getting in touch with our Nature. This Nature "Mind" is shared by all beings. Thus, when we investigate these matters we adopt a global standpoint, and in Buddhism, a Universal Standpoint (i.e. Mahayana) is emphasized as being the most rapid way of cultivation for Enlightenment. Thus, we work at harnessing our intelligence and seeing that all beings, large, small, born, waiting to be born, human and non, are all striving for happiness and shirking away from pain and displeasure. We are just like this. Take away all the fluff, all the stuff that fades in the course of a lifetime, like appearance and physical body, and you are left with this striving, which we are all carriers of. Build your viewpoint by expanding your circle to include all beings. Especially cherish beings with whom there are struggles. We can work up to this. It is possible. This is the way to Ultimate Evolution. This is the way to Peace.
- sit. thoughts are like clouds. we can use them as springboards for certain realms of investigation. gain certainty through thinking, and when you meditate, you are letting stillness do the most gentle dance with the atmosphere of the mind. thus, when we meditate it is so so valuable to smile, to wish wellness and goodwill to "others" and to dissolve the barriers that have been habitually built up.
think about mud. there was a huge mudslide every fall in the dessert and this one house gets coated with it over and over again. you can barely tell there's a house there. but then you give your friend a hug and say " i appreciate you. you are amazing. within us all is the potential for divine peace and helpfulness. with our love we will dissolve all barriers" and from the warmth of your intention a gentle rain bursts out in the bright sunshine. there is a myriad of rainbows, and the house is gently cleaned until it sparkles like brand new.
although nothing is permanent and nothing inherently and truly persists (and thus we say "doesn't exist"), you can still write your friend a happy letter, put it in a bottle, and send it downstream where it bumps into their dock gently. re-orient the mind to find equality in all that is mind -- all beings wishing and striving for happiness and the causes and origins of happiness. this is where. the how will come; for the mind gently illuminate any shadow crest upon it.
---
life is not simply thoughts; the physical body, its postures, habituations, and diet will all influence the quality and availability of your meditative energies. this is why so many yogis (both on these forums and around the world) do not eat meat or eggs, they are too heavy for a discerning, keen mind. the quality of the food you eat and the clarity you lend to breath and breathing will greatly determine trajectory. eat natural. eat like a bunny that likes spices and honey and olives. listen to your body and sleep when you are tired. work gradually in brief spurts to bloom and blouse the awareness of the subtle body (like a body "buzz" with clearness and listening)
and be good. and be kind. buddha taught things gradually in a way that would allow people to find true peace. really all the teachings were out of genuine compassion to help the individuals to whom he was speaking. thus, really reflect on the importance of "you" or "other" and how valuable they are. without suffering beings compassion would not arise. compassion is the tap of bodhichitta, the mind of aspiration for universal enlightenment of all beings. cultivation of this mind is so precious. so so precious. if one were to offer you diamonds covering the whole of the earth 67 times, they would be nothing of value still compared to the merit harnessed in one fraction of a moment of genuine bodhichitta. you can start by helping others around you with simple, small things, and when you do these things think well that the benefits of these tasks go to the enlightenment of everyone, and the person whom you are helping.
appreciate virtue when you see it in the world. if someone gives someone a penny, or refuses to engage in violence, or helps you wash the dishes, or waits for the kids at the crosswalk without beeping, really take the time to appreciate it mentally, and if possible, thank the person for their kindness. from all small seeds bloom the greatest trees. from all small smiles bloom the greatest of hearts.
love you. lots of people read these posts, so it is good to include information you think will be of benefit to others that read, in addition to posting your own inquiries
in zen method of just sitting, it is said to let thoughts be as such, without grasping and without rejecting - just be in here and now. a question came to my mind - what is this method leading to - means ok after some time, this can happen that we would not be too much concerned with our thoughts as they come and go, but later on also thoughts will arise and cease - we will try to be in present moment, but this way the whole life will pass, so where is that awakening? now someone will say that - in this moment, samsara and nirvana both exist - so does in Zen, being in present moment referred to as awakening? but then this can be a temporary awakening, which we might experience in sitting meditation - but when we are off the cushion dealing with worldly situations, how can we be in present moment and still handle the worldly situations - for example, if we just be in present moment, then we shall not plan anything for future - then we would not even set our alarm clock to get up after sitting duration, because to even set an alarm clock, we will have to think at what time we will get up from our sitting, so that will be thinking and not being in present moment - this is just a small example. then when we go to work-place and someone says to do something, then without thinking and planning how can we execute our work.
so how does it proceed in Zen or Dzogchen meditation, where they say to just be in present moment, with whatever experience is occurring, without changing it in anyway - means, how that unconditioned is experienced or how ignorance gets removed? like in anapanasati, we have the complete path from breath to nimitta to form-level jhanas to formless-level jhanas to unconditioned, so similarly what is the path in Zen meditation to awakening? does the Zen awakening and awakening through anapanasati are different?
i read an analogy somewhere written, where it said that mind is like mirror which reflects its objects - but we try to grasp the objects' reflection - the mirrorness of the mirror is like our True Nature. so these days, when sitting in just sitting method of Zen meditation, i am trying to develop the perception to be aware of this knowingness - i am not able to develop it, but still trying. in detail, what i am doing is, sitting with eyes closed, then whatever is happening in present moment, just try to be aware of it, then thinking in mind to focus on the common thing which is knowing these things, then for few minutes trying to sit still with whatever comes in my mind - whether external sounds, internal ear ringing, air touching body parts etc. So is developing this kind of perception going to help - or will it just add another layer of conditioning on the already existing ignorance? any suggestions please.
one more question - does being in the moment completely - as i read somewhere, when we are truely in the moment, it is like eternity - is it really true or just an exaggerated statement? means, see what i have noticed is - taking an example here - suppose when i sit in a room and i switch off the fans and if the climate is slightly warm, then i start to sweat - then i turn on the fans and when the air of the fans touch the body, the cool sensation which generates is really nice or even the natural air of trees if it touches a sweated part of body, a cool sensation generates which feels nice - this is ok - But what about when i was sitting in the room and i was sweating, i was not very comfortable then, so if someone is truely in the present moment, does in that sweating period also, that person will feel nice? means how does it feel to be truely in the present moment - does it feels nice or neutral or since we will be in present moment, we will not feel anything?
hope the above questions are not completely junk questions. so any suggestions please. thanks in advance.
Sheng-Yen's Song of Mind: Wisdom from the Zen Classic Xin Ming
Paradoxically it will have an effect. It is not leading to awakening.
[questions deleted]
[more questions deleted] Stop trying to develop. Just Sit. How does it feel at the moment?
:wave:
but honestly speaking, i found it very weird - the wierd part is after 2 months of my daughter being born, that incident happened of that article reading which i said above, so i struck spirituality nearly 2 years ago - the weirdness is if i had to struck spirituality, then why i did not struck spirituality till 2008 (since in 2009, my arranged marriage process got started and in end of 2009, i got married) and if i had not to struck spirituality, then why i struck it nearly 2 years ago after i was having a wife and a daughter - don't know what type of karma i had, which lead to such weirdness in my life.
till now, i have not found balance between my worldly life and my spiritual life. and i don't know what my life wants me to do.
There is no such thing as a moment, and this is the great conundrum of mathematics and physics, how to reconcile the legato of the continuum with the staccatto of a series of points. (The favourite problem of Einstein's favourite mathematician). The answer would be to say that time and space are not really extended, not really real, nor any consciousness that is dependent on them.
I think this connection between consciousness and time means that they must be understood together for a proper understanding of either.
This seems to be what Zeno was getting at with his paradoxes. His master Parmenides argued that for time and change there must be a prior phenomenon out of time that does not change, and Zeno tried to show this by making us see the absurdity of our usual notions of spacetime, change, moments and points.
Or so it all seems to me. I'm sure none of this can be understood by simply thinking about it.
my thinking says : a moment can be so short that it can pass without us noticing anything - something like a second if divided into 1000 milliseconds and we would be asked to observe it on a digital clock, then i think we will not be able to see even all the milliseconds getting displayed on the digital clock - so when i cannot even see what is going on in a 1/1000 part of a second, then what does it mean that i can truely be in that moment - or - since we cannot perceive it even completely, how can we distort it into something else, so does that mean we are in present moment but we do not realize it (seems like this can be the case) - then does this Zen practice makes our mind so slow that that moment expands somehow and we can realize that moment to be truely in it, sounds weird though. may be these are all just prapancha in my mind currently.
but what i am finding hard to understand is - what it means to be truely in the present moment? seems like i am stupid to not understand these basic things.
Somewhere a buddha is said to have a sense of time that allows him to distinguish much briefer intervals of time than the rest of us. This seems relevant.
The point really is just that the idea of a 'moment' is logically absurd. This means being present in the moment is a logically absurd idea. But it is a means of expression that conveys an idea. In the last resort, however, to be truly present in the moment would be to transcend moments entirely and to be (or not to be, that is the question) in the eternal and timeless NOW. Which is where we have have always been and always will be. Or something like that. I don't believe that anyone could understand our true situation without direct realisation, but it's fun to ponder these things.
If you are into mathematics then this is one of the best short essays on the (spacetime) continuum I've come across, a review of the ideas of the mathematician Hermann Weyl. Doesn't mention Buddhism, but it is all directly relevant. Note that he makes a firm distinction between the 'intuitive' continuum, the continuum of direct experience, which has no parts and therefore cannot be truly extended, and the 'faux' continuum of mathematics, physics and everyday thinking.
http://publish.uwo.ca/~jbell/Hermann Weyl.pdf
One physicist speaks of our sense of an extended spacetime as a 'mystical illusion'. Actually it's a scientific illusion, as the mystics have been trying to say for millenia.
Best I can do
- in zen method of just sitting, it is said to let thoughts be as such, without grasping and without rejecting - just be in here and now. a question came to my mind - what is this method leading to - means ok after some time, this can happen that we would not be too much concerned with our thoughts as they come and go, but later on also thoughts will arise and cease - we will try to be in present moment, but this way the whole life will pass, so where is that awakening?
- how can we be in present moment and still handle the worldly situations?
- i read an analogy somewhere written, where it said that mind is like mirror which reflects its objects - but we try to grasp the objects' reflection - the mirrorness of the mirror is like our True Nature. so these days, when sitting in just sitting method of Zen meditation, i am trying to develop the perception to be aware of this knowingness - i am not able to develop it, but still trying. in detail, what i am doing is, sitting with eyes closed, then whatever is happening in present moment, just try to be aware of it, then thinking in mind to focus on the common thing which is knowing these things, then for few minutes trying to sit still with whatever comes in my mind - whether external sounds, internal ear ringing, air touching body parts etc. So is developing this kind of perception going to help - or will it just add another layer of conditioning on the already existing ignorance?
the first question is to understand what Zen meditation is leading to - the second question is how is Zen going to help in changing the way we handle things out of our conditioning, or in a way how Zen is going to remove ignorance from our mind - the last question is related to my meditation. please suggest. thanks in advance.
The tendency of the mind is to be fluttering like a flying monkey. When doing Zen type meditation, accompanying the present moment is the 'mind charnel channel'. Dead, useless, extraneous burnt corpses of former beings, ghosts of things that never happened, demons and all angles of angel wandering in and out of imaginary being . . . all us.
What do we do? We just sit. The moment is always present.
Secondly, yes it is another layer of conditioning, but a skillful one in certain circumstances. It will be much easier to do the meditation in your first question if you can get the mind to settle down with this 6th jhana meditation.
How are you going with basic breath meditation? Just resting attention on the breath, and bringing it back when you notice it's somewhere else? That is the path to the concentration you need for these practices to be effective. The first meditation you asked about is an insight practice, and the second is a concentration practice which takes consciousness as the object of concentration, a very fine point to rest attention on. Just as a gymnast is better off initially learning to balance in more stable configurations, it is better to develop concentration using coarser objects first. There is a lot which can be learned from resting attention on coarser objects which also applies to finer objects, and the lessons from the coarser objects tend to be clearer. I generally start with breath and then move to successively finer objects in my own meditation, because it's good to progressively refine the mind even within the one meditation session.
now it can happen that may be i am not able to know if my breathing is going on between out-breath and next in-breath in that long period, but i think there is no breathing happening in there - so the question came what to observe in that long period, so i started trying to be aware of whatever is arising in present moment. then thoughts were coming in that long period and i was getting entangled in those thoughts - so i started to search some other meditation method - then i came to know about this Zen method of meditation of 'just sitting' - so i gave up anapanasati method and started this Zen 'just sitting' method.
so should i start with anapanasati and then proceed to 'just sitting' - or go directly with 'just sitting' method.
any suggestions, please. thanks in advance.
on browsing internet, i found Dogen's Uji (the time-being) and its commentary - Dogen said in it - time is self and self is time. the moment is having everything in it and is complete by itself. it is time-being : time is being and being is time. the moment cannot be hold onto. this moment is having everything sentient or insentient in it. we are this time-being. i think Dogen has said it brilliantly about moment of time.
as i understand it, time is nothing but just a concept, which is conventional. everything is occurring in space and time, the space differs, but time is flowing continuously - flowing not in the normal conventional sense of time just passing - but since it cannot be static (as we are always in a moment), so it flows, moment after moment, with no moment disturbing any other moment, rather every moment being complete in itself.
so this lead me to think that time is nothing other than our own awareness or our own knowingness of our surroundings - without our awareness, time does not exist for us. so time is empty of inherent existence as time depends on our awareness.
hi all,
any thoughts on above, please. also please correct me if my understanding of Dogen's Uji is going in the wrong direction. thanks in advance.
We are being-time. Each instant is being-time.
Hence no being-time as an idea, or solid thing.
This is the full understanding of impermanence with no things, which is full on flux = no thing changing.
in regards to knowing. knowing depends on the object and the object depends on knowing. so yes, time and space require knowing of time and space. it requires the referents (form, color, sensation, smell, taste, etc) and the ideas (time and space). Because time and space is built on the basis of conditions, causes, concept it is empty of inherent existence.
To realize Dogens being-time one has to sit zazen and actualize the one function in the myriad dharmas. Each moment is all the infinite causes and condition arising as that instant of knowingness say like the sound.
Steve Hagen eloquently describes it much better than I can:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/Steve Hagen
"Here's another example of a foolish-sounding Zen question that is actually an expression of just seeing: What is the sound of one hand clapping? When we conceive of a hand, it's just a single, isolated hand, and we're puzzled at the question. To clap, we need two hands. But this is approaching the question in our ordinary way - that is, conceptually.
With naked perception however, we see that a hand is not a separate and distinct hand. Everything is included with it. One hand clapping is the sound of two hands clapping is the sound of ten hands clapping. It's the sound before and after two hands clap. It's also the sound before and after one hand claps.
Conceptually, we think that sound is sound and silence is silence. The two seem neatly separated and distinct - in fact, opposite of each other. But this is only how we think, how we conceptualize. This is not how Reality is perceived, before we put everything into neat, nicely labelled (but deceptive) little packages.
We think there only has to be sound for there to be sound. We overlook that there must also be silence for there to be sound. And because of sound, there is silence. Were there no sound, how could there be silence?
Before you strike a bell, a sound is already here. After you strike the bell, the sound is here. When the sound fades and dies away, the sound is still here. The sound is not just the sound but the silence, too, And the silence is the sound. This is what is actually perceived before we parse everything out into this and that, into "myself" and "what I hear."
The sound of the bell is inseparable from everything that came before and that will come after as well as from everything that appears now. This includes your eardrum, which vibrates in response to it. It includes the air, which pulses with varying waves of pressure in response to it.
It includes the stick that strikes the bell. It includes the metallurgists, past and present, and those who learned to extract metal from ore and those who fashioned the bell. And it includes that ancient furnace, that supernova obliterated long ago in which this metal formed.
Remove any of these - indeed, remove anything at all - and there can be no sound of the bell. The sound of the bell is thus not "the sound of the bell." It is the entire Universe..."
I could be mistaken of course, because I can't look inside your mind, but I think the above is good advise even so.
I will answer from a vipassana viewpoint. When you are sitting doing your zen meditation and thoughts arise, do you feel that those thoughts are "your" thoughts? ie. those thoughts belong to you. If you feel that they are your thoughts, in Buddhism that is a delusion. So perhaps if you just sit in the present moment watching thoughts arise and cease then you may eventually one day come to the realization that those thoughts don't actually belong to you ie. that those thoughts are not-self. Then that's an awakening.
Being in the present moment means being aware. So just make sure you are being aware/mindful. As unenlightened beings, I don't think it's possible to be 100 per cent aware/mindful all of the time. So you just do the best you can. I suggest you try to keep your awareness on your bodily movements. For example, when setting your alarm clock, just be aware of the movements of your hands and fingers even while you are thinking about what time you want to get up. Don't worry about not being able to maintain 100% awareness. I don't think that's possible anyways.
I think this is normally for very advanced practitioners. In the vipassana school, it is meant for those who attain a level of concentration where they feel their entire body has disappeared and instead of just being absorbed by the feeling of absolute stillness, it is advised to steer one's awareness to the consciousness that is doing the knowing of the stillness and use that as the object of meditation. In that way, you move away from concentration meditation to insight meditation by studying the nature of consciousness.
If it feels nice and you are aware that it is feeling nice, that is being in the present moment. If it feels neutral and you are aware that it is feeling neutral, that is being in the present moment. So whatever it feels like, just be aware of it.