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Was Zimmerman truly racist? I really don't know. Some of the media reporting was actually fixed, that's why he is suing NBC, because what they put out there as his call to 911 was edited to make it sound worse than it was. It's one of the first impressions most people had of Zimmerman and so it sticks in our minds. But that doesn't make it accurate. Perhaps he is racist. I really don't know.
I don't really care whether or not he was racist. He killed a teenager who was guilty of walking home. There was no reason for anyone to die that night.
I don't disagree. I just don't know all the facts, and I wasn't there that night. I know that I would never do what Zimmerman did (because I don't carry a weapon and because I would listen to what 911 operator told me to do). Your previous comment of having sympathy for his family as long as they didn't teach him to be racist seem to me to imply that you felt he was racist, for one reason or another. My apologies for reading too much into your comment.
But sometimes it's so hard to keep that frame of mind when they are so cruel to others as a result of their suffering.
What has worked for me is remembering that people we find hard to love were once innocent children too. And with that said, we can also say that they were once under the mercy of whomever raised them/their environments. (Sometimes it's due to family, sometimes it's due to their friends, and yeah, sometimes it's just this genetic/karmic mutation of hate....) If you can remember they once started out with a clean slate (well, aside from karma) and saw the world with fresh, innocent eyes, it makes it a bit easier.
For example, I don't known if you remember the thread I created a few weeks ago about my friend's two adult children? The ones whom I was angry at for treating my friend so horribly? Well, about a week after that post, my friend showed me some old pictures of the two children when they were in pre-school. My heart melted. There was love back then. Those kids weren't always at their parent's throat, and vice versa. Something changed along the way. What? I don't know. But after seeing those kids so innocent and pure in those pictures, my heart changed its song a bit. I no longer felt such hatred towards them for their actions. I actually just felt sorry for them and wished they'd find that same carefree happiness they had as children. I just wanted them all to get along again and love each other. That hope for them replaced the anger instantaneously. I could see that by reflecting upon those pictures, it had the same effect on my friend as well.
I don't disagree. I just don't know all the facts, and I wasn't there that night. I know that I would never do what Zimmerman did (because I don't carry a weapon and because I would listen to what 911 operator told me to do). Your previous comment of having sympathy for his family as long as they didn't teach him to be racist seem to me to imply that you felt he was racist, for one reason or another. My apologies for reading too much into your comment.
He may have been racist...I'm guessing he was...at least a little. But he also may have mostly been what a call a "cop-wannabe". I've known the type before and they are dangerous people with a vigilante attitude.
I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but I just have to say that I'm really surprised at some of the comments I see on a Buddhist board. I'm not saying that Buddhists aren't entitled to their opinions, but it's hard to say exactly what happened from what was released on the news and from the obvious slant of the main stream media. More information is coming out everyday revealing information not reported on before. I think there's more to the story than we've been told and it's sad to see people engaging in negative thought and speech. I'm not trying to excuse what happened- it all could have been avoided if right though, speech, and actions had been practiced by both parties. It's also sad to see these two people being used as political pawns. So many young people killed in Chicago on a regular basis and no big political outcry.
I think that if Zimmerman had been arrested and charged right away, this probably wouldn't have been a major story either. It became major when other parties took it to the mainstream media that he had shot a black kid and simply been released. He wasn't charged with a crime until people demanded it. Trayvon was killed on Feb 26th, Zimmerman was released free a few hours later and not charged until April 11th. If he had been charged right away as should have happened, the case probably would never had made the news.
Basically I agree with you about this case, Karasti, but people are not always charged "right away". I think the bigger problem was that it did not even appear that they were even investigating the incident.
I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but I just have to say that I'm really surprised at some of the comments I see on a Buddhist board. I'm not saying that Buddhists aren't entitled to their opinions, but it's hard to say exactly what happened from what was released on the news and from the obvious slant of the main stream media. More information is coming out everyday revealing information not reported on before. I think there's more to the story than we've been told and it's sad to see people engaging in negative thought and speech. I'm not trying to excuse what happened- it all could have been avoided if right though, speech, and actions had been practiced by both parties. It's also sad to see these two people being used as political pawns. So many young people killed in Chicago on a regular basis and no big political outcry.
What is missing from this story? A guy is entitled by law to carry a gun on his hip. As it turns out he is also entitled to get into a fight by choice then kill the kid when it gets out of hand. If there is something deeper going on here its a flaw in the system that needs to be corrected by lawmakers. Just because someone is a Buddhist, doesn't mean they are omniscient. It also doesn't mean seeing things thru rose coloured glasses. It's not a story that is easy to put a positive spin on.
2
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
At the end of this snippet of an interview with George Zimmerman's brother he goes into serious disconnect mode where he worries about George's safety saying that he'll have to keep looking over his shoulder for people who would want to take the law into their own hands and enact some kind of vigilante justice.
I think that if Zimmerman had been arrested and charged right away, this probably wouldn't have been a major story either. It became major when other parties took it to the mainstream media that he had shot a black kid and simply been released. He wasn't charged with a crime until people demanded it. Trayvon was killed on Feb 26th, Zimmerman was released free a few hours later and not charged until April 11th. If he had been charged right away as should have happened, the case probably would never had made the news.
The police said there was nothing to charge him with, because he acted in self-defense.
I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but I just have to say that I'm really surprised at some of the comments I see on a Buddhist board. I'm not saying that Buddhists aren't entitled to their opinions, but it's hard to say exactly what happened from what was released on the news and from the obvious slant of the main stream media. More information is coming out everyday revealing information not reported on before. I think there's more to the story than we've been told and it's sad to see people engaging in negative thought and speech. I'm not trying to excuse what happened- it all could have been avoided if right though, speech, and actions had been practiced by both parties. It's also sad to see these two people being used as political pawns. So many young people killed in Chicago on a regular basis and no big political outcry.
What information about the case has come out since the trial? I don't have a TV, and the case hasn't been in my local paper. Nor has the NY Times reported on the details, much. So I'd be interested to learn more about it. Please share.
And welcome back, btw.
0
zombiegirlbeating the drum of the lifelessin a dry wastelandVeteran
This showed up on my fb feed recently. Really interesting extra info from the case that does a great job elaborating just how much the media can twist things.
Just a side note: the points in the beginning are a little dumb, but they become more poignant later on. For example, George Zimmerman apparently used to have a black business partner and also took a black girl to his senior prom (making him quite likely not racist). Also interesting were the pictures of the damage to George Zimmerman's face and head that I admit, I never saw. I also never heard that his nose was broken. Sheesh.
If there really was not a problem in charging him, then why did they eventually decide to do so? Obviously public pressure played a huge part, but FL isn't exactly known for bowing to public pressure they kind of do things their own way. Once the phone calls started coming out and the 911 calls were made public it became clear there were some other issues with the case, which the police should have had as part of an active investigation before leaping to a decision that no crime was committed. One never bases the decision to press charges on simply the interview of the offender. There are always 2 sides and it is there job to interpret both sides before deciding. They listened only to 1 side of the story without listening to 911 calls or anything else.
There was a thing going around FB that I found interesting. If a person's daughter were being followed at night by an unknown person and made the decision to knee the person in the testicles, and the follower shot and killed her, would there be as many people willing to say it was self-defense? Yes, Zimmerman had injuries. But those injuries were mostly superficial (even a broken nose is fairly superficial and head wounds always look worse because of how much they bleed) and they would not have happened had he not followed someone he really had no business following and was told he probably shouldn't follow. But if the person had been an attractive white girl instead of a black boy, would we *honestly* be having the same issues with this case? I really don't think we would. He would not have been released simply on his own statement just based on his injuries.
@karasti Yes, that was my understanding. That the case had to be investigated and analyzed in order to determine whether, in fact, a crime had taken place or not. I.e. was it self-defense, or was it premeditated murder, or manslaughter? There are some "self defense" incidents in which no one gets charged, then there are others where the police feel an investigation is necessary. The problem with Florida is that it has a history of racism, so the police (and one could say: the courts) can't be trusted.
And one more comment. Others have said it would be very unusual that Zimmerman wouldn't know the streets and walkways in his own neighborhood, especially being a neighborhood watch personnel. People are usually well familiar with the streets and paths in their own immediate neighborhood, and can cite their names from memory. This (below) seems like a lame excuse for following Martin. (From Zombiegirl's link)
Zimmerman then got out of his car but lost sight of Martin after a few moments. He continued in the same direction as Martin for a few hundred feet either to try to see where Martin went or to check the street name to give an address to the police (or both).
Thanks, Dakini. It's been awhile. I've read a few articles that offered information I hadn't heard before. They interviewed GZ's instructor and he said that GZ wasn't trained for physical confrontation. Pierce Morgan interviewed the girl, Janell, and she said she told TM that the guy following him could be a rapist and that he shouldn't lead him back to his house because of his little brother. They've also posted some of TM's social media comments- you'd have to look them up- I don't want to comment on the pics or the content. All I'll say is that it's a much different impression of the young man than one would have from the picture the MSM used in their reporting. I also heard the 911 call that was unaltered by the MSM- much different- he didn't sound racist and I believe he's going to sue the station that edited that call to make him sound like one. Much of this does support GZ's statement that TM attacked him. Fear and anger can do that. I'm not emotionally invested in this, other than sadness that 2 people who both had a right to be in that neighborhood could not communicate with each other and avoid the violent outcome. I understand that some may feel that GZ got away with it. His life will not be the same - I doubt he will be able to pursue police work. There was also news that GZ stopped to help a family in an overturned truck- he pulled 2 adults and 2 children out from the wreck before the response team came. He might have made a good EMT- who knows. I'm a neutral observer of the ripple effect that will come.
Everyone, including the jury, agreed that Zimmerman had no business following Martin. And that the whole incident would have been avoided if he had done as he was told and stayed in his car. But the bottom line was that stand your ground law, even though it was not used in his trial, allowed for him to use deadly force at his own discretion, if he felt that he might be in danger of serious injury or death, with no requirement to try to escape first, even if he picked the fight. That is not to say that he needed to be in any real danger, only that he thought that he was. The prosecution's expert witnesses, including the woman who treated him, said that his injuries were superficial, and not life threatening. Anybody can kill anybody without any real justification or consequences if they play their cards right. It's the wild west down there.
Anybody can kill anybody without any real justification or consequences if they play their cards right. It's the wild west down there.
Not just there- Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati... I've also read an article about Hollywood losing tourism because of all the muggings. This is much, much deeper than the Zimmerman trial, for sure. It will continue to get worse if we, as a society, are unable or unwilling to face the root causes. Our culture has been in decline for a long time - there is a saying "What one generation tolerates- the next generation will embrace."
Anybody can kill anybody without any real justification or consequences if they play their cards right. It's the wild west down there.
Not just there- Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati... I've also read an article about Hollywood losing tourism because of all the muggings. This is much, much deeper than the Zimmerman trial, for sure. It will continue to get worse if we, as a society, are unable or unwilling to face the root causes. Our culture has been in decline for a long time - there is a saying "What one generation tolerates- the next generation will embrace."
Yes. So, with that in mind, let's note that the current trend toward runaway costs for higher education, sharply decreased availability of scholarships and grants, and sharply increased interest rates on college loans, is almost killing the upward mobility that used to be a hallmark of American society, and that lent stability to life in the US. The underclass is getting harder to escape, even as more people are finding themselves caught in it, through bad home loans that collapse on them, heightened unemployment, the health insurance crisis, slashed budgets for public services and the safety net, and other factors. Vote for public officials and policies that would help expand the economy further, not put more money in the hands of those at the top. Volunteer to mentor at-risk youth, or tutor someone in your college, if you're a student. These problems won't be resolved by themselves; we're all in this society together. _/\_
"George Zimmerman Not Guilty!!" Is our justice system really about justice?
Florida is its own zone. I'm not sure why prosecutors didn't request a change of venue. I suppose moving the case out of state to a liberal state wasn't an option.
"George Zimmerman Not Guilty!!" Is our justice system really about justice?
Florida is its own zone. I'm not sure why prosecutors didn't request a change of venue. I suppose moving the case out of state to a liberal state wasn't an option.
It's a Florida case and could not be moved out of state. The only "out of state" option is if the feds make it a civil rights case.
Dakini said: Yes. So, with that in mind, let's note that the current trend toward runaway costs for higher education, sharply decreased availability of scholarships and grants, and sharply increased interest rates on college loans, is almost killing the upward mobility that used to be a hallmark of American society, and that lent stability to life in the US. The underclass is getting harder to escape, even as more people are finding themselves caught in it, through bad home loans that collapse on them, heightened unemployment, the health insurance crisis, slashed budgets for public services and the safety net, and other factors. Vote for public officials and policies that would help expand the economy further, not put more money in the hands of those at the top. Volunteer to mentor at-risk youth, or tutor someone in your college, if you're a student. These problems won't be resolved by themselves; we're all in this society together. _/\_
Dakini, you're not alone in expressing this - I've heard much of the same from many pundits on the news shows. I agree that many of these essential components have eroded with nothing of merit to replace them. I think it's more than that- too many in our society from the very top to the bottom of the social strata refuse to take any personal responsibility.
What happened to cause these programs/social elements to decline or disappear? What choices were made to weaken the family, employer/employee relations, knowing that you have to work for what you want, and a sense of community and concern for all?
I hear people constantly blaming others. How long can any of us coast on blame before we have to face ourselves and what we did to contribute to our own troubles. When do we take full responsibility for the choices we've made? How long do we allow destructive influences form our futures?
I'm old enough to remember a time when people were very engaged in the political system and we had some real, honest to goodness statesmen, who put the concerns for their constituents first and were not only focused on their own power and reelection.
Statistically, we spend an enormous amount on our educational system with poor results. Why? Is the money spent wisely? Do we have enough quality teachers? Is the curriculum geared towards academics/vocational skills? Are the children put into one size fits all studies or directed to what will build on their strengths? Are the kids coming to school understanding that their future depends on it? Are the kids properly socialized and able to behave? Are the parents stable and putting an effort into raising their kids?
What is driving the problems in employment, healthcare, and the economy? Our government has expanded over the decades into the behemoth it is now, so why are things this bad? More and more scandals are surfacing of absolute waste and abuse of power this creates. Who is benefiting from all of this?
Sorry for getting up on a soapbox, and I'm not trying to belittle your post. You're expressing what many, many people are upset about. We need to find what will solve these issues, but I'm not sure how effective any efforts will be without responsibility being a core element.
Statistically, we spend an enormous amount on our educational system with poor results. Why? Is the money spent wisely? Do we have enough quality teachers? Is the curriculum geared towards academics/vocational skills? Are the children put into one size fits all studies or directed to what will build on their strengths? Are the kids coming to school understanding that their future depends on it? Are the kids properly socialized and able to behave? Are the parents stable and putting an effort into raising their kids?
Well, the fact is that we don't spend an enormous amt. on the school system. When Reagan allowed taxpayers to remove their contribution from the public school system in favor of vouchers or tax credits, that was the beginning of the end. That policy also speaks to another point of yours, which is the abandonment of the principle of the common weal, the idea that we all contribute to the general advancement of society. Now it's every man/woman/family for him/herself. Why should I pay taxes to support a public school system if my kid's going to private school? Never mind the fact that helping to raise everyone up, especially those lower on the totem pole, benefits all, through a generally rising prosperity, stability, level of education, and increased tax-paying capacity, and therefore less drain on public assistance, and less crime. A vicious circle that spirals more and more people downward has replaced the beneficial circle, that gradually raises everyone higher and builds a more equitable society.
Statistically, we spend an enormous amount on our educational system with poor results. Why? Is the money spent wisely? Do we have enough quality teachers? Is the curriculum geared towards academics/vocational skills? Are the children put into one size fits all studies or directed to what will build on their strengths? Are the kids coming to school understanding that their future depends on it? Are the kids properly socialized and able to behave? Are the parents stable and putting an effort into raising their kids?
Well, the fact is that we don't spend an enormous amt. on the school system. When Reagan allowed taxpayers to remove their contribution from the public school system in favor of vouchers or tax credits, that was the beginning of the end. That policy also speaks to another point of yours, which is the abandonment of the principle of the common weal, the idea that we all contribute to the general advancement of society. Now it's every man/woman/family for him/herself. Why should I pay taxes to support a public school system if my kid's going to private school? Never mind the fact that helping to raise everyone up, especially those lower on the totem pole, benefits all, through a generally rising prosperity, stability, level of education, and increased tax-paying capacity, and therefore less drain on public assistance, and less crime. A vicious circle that spirals more and more people downward has replaced the beneficial circle, that gradually raises everyone higher and builds a more equitable society.
Dakini- Half of the population pay no taxes other than those on some purchases. Trillions have been spend on the War on Poverty from the Johnson Administration up to the present- yet we still have these problems. We still have poverty. Something is not working. I can't blame people for trying to get their children out of badly run, dangerous public schools.
We spend almost 8K per student. How much would it take to improve the system? I'm not in the education system except for paying to support it. Do we need so many 6 figure administrators in very poor districts. I remember watching an excellent documentary about the subject a long time ago, I don't have the name of it, but they showed how broken the system was. People who were tough and took measures to help improve the schools got backlash from those in the system.
You're very correct when you point out how selfish people have become. One of the schools, here, launched a summer program to help selected kids keep up. They also added physical activities like supervised swimming. This is a great opportunity for these kids. When a very well off mother found out about it- she wanted to know why she couldn't have her kids (who didn't need the help) enrolled so that she didn't have to pay for a sitter. Years ago, people would be ashamed to take such advantage. Look at what's been happening over the last few decades- it is all about the bottom line or personal greed or feelings of entitlement. It created a wicked cycle of people losing ground and communities failing to recover. From top to bottom- people from all strata have created this present trend. The question is- what are people willing to do to change this? Are they willing to set aside all their petty differences and work together? I hope so, but people need to outgrow old mind sets and to take a good honest look at themselves and those they support.
Wow- we're way off topic- but I appreciate your comments. Maybe we should start a new thread!
Comments
For example, I don't known if you remember the thread I created a few weeks ago about my friend's two adult children? The ones whom I was angry at for treating my friend so horribly? Well, about a week after that post, my friend showed me some old pictures of the two children when they were in pre-school. My heart melted. There was love back then. Those kids weren't always at their parent's throat, and vice versa. Something changed along the way. What? I don't know. But after seeing those kids so innocent and pure in those pictures, my heart changed its song a bit. I no longer felt such hatred towards them for their actions. I actually just felt sorry for them and wished they'd find that same carefree happiness they had as children. I just wanted them all to get along again and love each other. That hope for them replaced the anger instantaneously. I could see that by reflecting upon those pictures, it had the same effect on my friend as well.
A guy is entitled by law to carry a gun on his hip. As it turns out he is also entitled to get into a fight by choice then kill the kid when it gets out of hand. If there is something deeper going on here its a flaw in the system that needs to be corrected by lawmakers.
Just because someone is a Buddhist, doesn't mean they are omniscient. It also doesn't mean seeing things thru rose coloured glasses.
It's not a story that is easy to put a positive spin on.
At the end of this snippet of an interview with George Zimmerman's brother he goes into serious disconnect mode where he worries about George's safety saying that he'll have to keep looking over his shoulder for people who would want to take the law into their own hands and enact some kind of vigilante justice.
And welcome back, btw.
Just a side note: the points in the beginning are a little dumb, but they become more poignant later on. For example, George Zimmerman apparently used to have a black business partner and also took a black girl to his senior prom (making him quite likely not racist). Also interesting were the pictures of the damage to George Zimmerman's face and head that I admit, I never saw. I also never heard that his nose was broken. Sheesh.
There was a thing going around FB that I found interesting.
If a person's daughter were being followed at night by an unknown person and made the decision to knee the person in the testicles, and the follower shot and killed her, would there be as many people willing to say it was self-defense?
Yes, Zimmerman had injuries. But those injuries were mostly superficial (even a broken nose is fairly superficial and head wounds always look worse because of how much they bleed) and they would not have happened had he not followed someone he really had no business following and was told he probably shouldn't follow. But if the person had been an attractive white girl instead of a black boy, would we *honestly* be having the same issues with this case? I really don't think we would. He would not have been released simply on his own statement just based on his injuries.
Zimmerman then got out of his car but lost sight of Martin after a few moments. He continued in the same direction as Martin for a few hundred feet either to try to see where Martin went or to check the street name to give an address to the police (or both).
But the bottom line was that stand your ground law, even though it was not used in his trial, allowed for him to use deadly force at his own discretion, if he felt that he might be in danger of serious injury or death, with no requirement to try to escape first, even if he picked the fight.
That is not to say that he needed to be in any real danger, only that he thought that he was.
The prosecution's expert witnesses, including the woman who treated him, said that his injuries were superficial, and not life threatening.
Anybody can kill anybody without any real justification or consequences if they play their cards right.
It's the wild west down there.
Is our justice system really about justice?
Dakini, you're not alone in expressing this - I've heard much of the same from many pundits on the news shows. I agree that many of these essential components have eroded with nothing of merit to replace them. I think it's more than that- too many in our society from the very top to the bottom of the social strata refuse to take any personal responsibility.
What happened to cause these programs/social elements to decline or disappear? What choices were made to weaken the family, employer/employee relations, knowing that you have to work for what you want, and a sense of community and concern for all?
I hear people constantly blaming others. How long can any of us coast on blame before we have to face ourselves and what we did to contribute to our own troubles. When do we take full responsibility for the choices we've made? How long do we allow destructive influences form our futures?
I'm old enough to remember a time when people were very engaged in the political system and we had some real, honest to goodness statesmen, who put the concerns for their constituents first and were not only focused on their own power and reelection.
Statistically, we spend an enormous amount on our educational system with poor results. Why? Is the money spent wisely? Do we have enough quality teachers? Is the curriculum geared towards academics/vocational skills? Are the children put into one size fits all studies or directed to what will build on their strengths? Are the kids coming to school understanding that their future depends on it? Are the kids properly socialized and able to behave? Are the parents stable and putting an effort into raising their kids?
What is driving the problems in employment, healthcare, and the economy? Our government has expanded over the decades into the behemoth it is now, so why are things this bad? More and more scandals are surfacing of absolute waste and abuse of power this creates. Who is benefiting from all of this?
Sorry for getting up on a soapbox, and I'm not trying to belittle your post. You're expressing what many, many people are upset about. We need to find what will solve these issues, but I'm not sure how effective any efforts will be without responsibility being a core element.
We spend almost 8K per student. How much would it take to improve the system? I'm not in the education system except for paying to support it. Do we need so many 6 figure administrators in very poor districts. I remember watching an excellent documentary about the subject a long time ago, I don't have the name of it, but they showed how broken the system was. People who were tough and took measures to help improve the schools got backlash from those in the system.
You're very correct when you point out how selfish people have become. One of the schools, here, launched a summer program to help selected kids keep up. They also added physical activities like supervised swimming. This is a great opportunity for these kids. When a very well off mother found out about it- she wanted to know why she couldn't have her kids (who didn't need the help) enrolled so that she didn't have to pay for a sitter. Years ago, people would be ashamed to take such advantage. Look at what's been happening over the last few decades- it is all about the bottom line or personal greed or feelings of entitlement. It created a wicked cycle of people losing ground and communities failing to recover. From top to bottom- people from all strata have created this present trend. The question is- what are people willing to do to change this? Are they willing to set aside all their petty differences and work together? I hope so, but people need to outgrow old mind sets and to take a good honest look at themselves and those they support.
Wow- we're way off topic- but I appreciate your comments. Maybe we should start a new thread!