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what would The Buddha say or do if....

ShigoShigo
in Buddhism Basics
Let's say someone was being completely irrational and calling the Buddha names and it was more or less like talking to a wall. What would Buddha do or say in that situation? I don't think I've ever come across an example in any sutta that this happened. Does anybody know of an example?

Comments

  • banned_crabbanned_crab Veteran
    budha might try to help the dude
    Shigo
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    Boddhidharma faced a wall and talked to ants. Maybe Buddha would be cheering him on :eek:
    Shigo
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    Sutra On The Buddha's Bequeathed Teaching

    All of you Bhikshus, if a person dismembered you piece by piece your
    mind should be self-contained. Do not allow yourself to become
    angry. Moreover, you should guard your mouth and not give rise to
    evil speech. If you allow yourself to have thoughts of anger, you
    will hinder your own Way, and lose the merit and virtue you have
    gained. Patience is a virtue which neither upholding the precepts
    nor the ascetic practises are able to compare with. One who is able
    to practise patience can be called a great person who has strength;
    if you are unable to happily and patiently undergo the poison of
    malicious abuse, as if drinking sweet dew, you cannot be called a
    wise person who has entered the Way. Why is this? The harm from
    anger ruins all good dharmas and destroys one's good reputation.
    People of the present and of the future will not even wish to see
    this person. You should know that a heart of anger is worse than a
    fierce fire. You should always guard against it, and not allow it to
    enter you, for of the thieves which rob one's merit and virtue, none
    surpasses anger. Anger may be excusable in lay people who indulge in
    desires, and in people who do not cultivate the Way, who are without
    the means to restrain themselves, but for people who have left the
    home-life, who cultivate the Way and are without desires, harboring
    anger is impermissable. Within a clear, cool cloud, there should not
    be a sudden blazing clash of thunder.

    What would the Buddha do? What would you do if faced with an angry, out of control person? Try to help that person. What else is there to do?
    poptartShigokarmablues
  • ShigoShigo
    I've tried to help people who were angry and out of control but it sometimes just makes them even more angry. It's strange. I think maybe the reason Buddha had so many people follow him was because he was not just an ordinary person. The murderer who cut off his victims fingers and wore them as a necklace for example... he repented and became liberated after talking to the Buddha. Another man I forget the whole story who used to get drunk everyday just looked at the Buddha and shook off his drunkenness.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    Shigo said:

    Let's say someone was being completely irrational and calling the Buddha names and it was more or less like talking to a wall. What would Buddha do or say in that situation? I don't think I've ever come across an example in any sutta that this happened. Does anybody know of an example?

    I think the most famous example would be when he was confronted by Mara. He would try to understand the person and tell them he is here for them. The same thing he would do with his own anger.

  • GuiGui Veteran
    Buddha is a name.
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    Shigo said:

    I've tried to help people who were angry and out of control but it sometimes just makes them even more angry. It's strange.

    If being angry suits a so called purpose then it's a bit harder. A mutual friend of a broken up couple taking sides or even somebody seeking revenge against the wrong person comes to mind. However, if it is just an overly angry person lashing out for no apparent reason then a well timed jab of compassion can really shake their world. I've seen it happen twice.
    I think maybe the reason Buddha had so many people follow him was because he was not just an ordinary person. The murderer who cut off his victims fingers and wore them as a necklace for example... he repented and became liberated after talking to the Buddha. Another man I forget the whole story who used to get drunk everyday just looked at the Buddha and shook off his drunkenness.
    He pretty much said he was ordinary... Maybe super-ordinary. If he was not just ordinarily being, what hope is there for ordinary beings?

    The fine line between the divine and the mundane is illusory.

  • ShigoShigo
    But take a look at how the Buddha described himself.

    "I am one who has overcome all, who knows all, I am detached from all things; having abandonded everything, obtained emancipation, by the destruction of desire. Having by myself gained knowledge, whom should I call master?"

    The Blessed One made known his status more emphatically as follows:
    na me acariyo atthi
    sadiso me na vijjati
    sadevakasmim lokasmin
    nathi me patipuggalo
    "I have no teacher, One like me is not, in the world of men and gods, NONE is my counterpart"

    majjhima nikaya 26

  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Consider that when they appear angry and attacking us it is something we are accepting. A whirlwind seems dangerous to one who is fearful of its impact, but to one who isn't, it is only wind caught in a loop.

    My teacher said perhaps not to give it food and it will blow itself out. Said differently, if we accept the whirlwind is impermanent but painful for the other, our spaciousness of mind doesn't collapse, and we can remain rooted and skillful... whereby the aggression they have been seduced by will not give rise to thoughts of "other" or "they" or possessing some quality of "anger"... rather a fruition of conditions that will change as the conditions change.

    If that is unavailable, then we can just relate to the feelings. "You sound upset, how can I help?" Or "all that anger must be painful, how can I help?"

    With warmth,
    Matt

    riverflowJeffreyCinorjer
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Shigo said:

    But take a look at how the Buddha described himself.

    "I am one who has overcome all, who knows all, I am detached from all things; having abandonded everything, obtained emancipation, by the destruction of desire.

    This is only your mind confusing ignorance for incapability. Just because in that moment you were un-Buddha, does not mean that you are devoid of the ability to be so. Just because there is currently ignorance in your mind, does not mean it is permanent. Remember that Buddha taught that conditions which have the ability to rise have the ability to cease. Said differently, we can overcome our ignorance with the proper conditions, such as practice and insight.

    Ww,M
    riverflow
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    He might bunch him in the nose. Why? I don't know, I'm not enlightened.
  • ShigoShigo
    aMatt said:

    Shigo said:

    But take a look at how the Buddha described himself.

    "I am one who has overcome all, who knows all, I am detached from all things; having abandonded everything, obtained emancipation, by the destruction of desire.

    This is only your mind confusing ignorance for incapability. Just because in that moment you were un-Buddha, does not mean that you are devoid of the ability to be so. Just because there is currently ignorance in your mind, does not mean it is permanent. Remember that Buddha taught that conditions which have the ability to rise have the ability to cease. Said differently, we can overcome our ignorance with the proper conditions, such as practice and insight.

    Ww,M
    But what about this part?...
    One like me is not, in the world of men and gods, NONE is my counterpart

    In the theravada tradition even though a "ordinary" person can become an Arahat and reach enlightenment, The Buddha is said to be of the highest kind of being, even though still human.

    It seems straight forward that he is saying his "status" is above all others. In some other traditions they talk about very special marks and qualities only Buddha has.

    (yes im getting off topic from the post, one thing leads to another)
  • aMattaMatt Veteran
    Perhaps it is because you consider Buddha a person, rather than a quality? Its tough to say exactly why this form of clinging has arisen for you! Perhaps there is a feeling of lack or less-than still bouncing around inside you?

    We all like to have heroes, but the pedestals we're apt to put them on aren't helpful. The only difference between those who are heroes and those who are not are that heroes take it upon themselves as a sacred duty to be the manifestation of the qualities they respect.

    With warmth,
    Matt
    riverflowShigo
  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    edited July 2013
    Shigo said:

    Let's say someone was being completely irrational and calling the Buddha names and it was more or less like talking to a wall. What would Buddha do or say in that situation? I don't think I've ever come across an example in any sutta that this happened. Does anybody know of an example?

    From the Dhammapada Atthakatha, the story accompanying verses 320 - 322:
    .... [Magandi] bribed the citizens and said, "When this Gotama-monk comes begging to the city, all of you gather your young people, stand by and hurl insults and abuse at him and drive him away. Thus when [they] saw the Buddha enter the inner city they chased behind him saying, "You are a thief, an ignorant fellow, a fool, a camel, a bull, a donkey, a useless beast. There is no heaven for you. Misfortune will be your lot." Thus they insulted and abused him with the ten different forms of insult.

    Hearing of this, Elder Ananda came to the Buddha and said, "Blessed One, the people of this city insult and abuse you. Let us leave this city and go elsewhere."

    "Ananda, when we go to the next city, if the people of that city also abuse and insult us where then should we go?" asked the Buddha.

    "Blessed One, the land of Dambadiva is by no means small. If that happens we will go to yet another city."

    "If those citizens also abuse us in the same manner where then do we go, Ananda?"

    "Blessed One, if they too abuse and insult us we can go somewhere else."

    The Buddha replied, "O Ananda, I am like an elephant who has entered the battlefield. Just as an elephant who has set foot on the battlefield patiently bears the arrows hurled, likewise it is fitting I bear all these insults [without a murmur] and forgive them."

    Thus taking himself as the subject, the Buddha declared these three stanzas from the Elephant text [of the Dhammapada]:

    Just as an elephant in battle withstands arrows discharged from bows,
    so will I bear all abuse. Indeed many people are without morality.

    Only the disciplined elephant is taken to gatherings. The king mounts only the tamed elephant. So among men the disciplined one who bears insults is noblest.

    Among horses the thoroughbred are the best. Of elephants the disciplined Kujjara elephants are the best. Better than all these is the self-disciplined one.
    The message of the story seems to be that running away from abusive people is not the wisest choice because ultimately we can't avoid being subjected to abusive words, and therefore the best thing to do is to train oneself in order to be able to bear insults calmly and forgive.
    riverflowperson
  • JohnGJohnG Veteran
    I am not the Buddha, so I have no idea what he would do; but for me, just accept such people as being there, and move on.
  • ShigoShigo
    aMatt said:

    Perhaps it is because you consider Buddha a person, rather than a quality? Its tough to say exactly why this form of clinging has arisen for you! Perhaps there is a feeling of lack or less-than still bouncing around inside you?

    We all like to have heroes, but the pedestals we're apt to put them on aren't helpful. The only difference between those who are heroes and those who are not are that heroes take it upon themselves as a sacred duty to be the manifestation of the qualities they respect.

    With warmth,
    Matt

    I greatly appreciate your insightful responses.
    Truth is, The Buddha is my hero. I am so thankful for who he was, did, for laying out the road map for us and everything. I link myself to the theravada tradition and in our cannon it is said that there was a number of Buddhas who came before Gottama but they didn't want to teach the dhamma!!
    So, The Buddha is very special to me.

    mfranzdorf
  • mfranzdorfmfranzdorf Veteran
    Cinorjer said:

    Sutra On The Buddha's Bequeathed Teaching

    All of you Bhikshus, if a person dismembered you piece by piece your
    mind should be self-contained. Do not allow yourself to become
    angry. Moreover, you should guard your mouth and not give rise to
    evil speech. If you allow yourself to have thoughts of anger, you
    will hinder your own Way, and lose the merit and virtue you have
    gained. Patience is a virtue which neither upholding the precepts
    nor the ascetic practises are able to compare with. One who is able
    to practise patience can be called a great person who has strength;
    if you are unable to happily and patiently undergo the poison of
    malicious abuse, as if drinking sweet dew, you cannot be called a
    wise person who has entered the Way. Why is this? The harm from
    anger ruins all good dharmas and destroys one's good reputation.
    People of the present and of the future will not even wish to see
    this person. You should know that a heart of anger is worse than a
    fierce fire. You should always guard against it, and not allow it to
    enter you, for of the thieves which rob one's merit and virtue, none
    surpasses anger. Anger may be excusable in lay people who indulge in
    desires, and in people who do not cultivate the Way, who are without
    the means to restrain themselves, but for people who have left the
    home-life, who cultivate the Way and are without desires, harboring
    anger is impermissable. Within a clear, cool cloud, there should not
    be a sudden blazing clash of thunder.

    What would the Buddha do? What would you do if faced with an angry, out of control person? Try to help that person. What else is there to do?

    Thank you for sharing this!
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