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Does anyone positively feel that there is no such thing as enlightenment?
Jeffrey
Veteran
in Philosophy
As the title. I am kind of somewhere in between open arms belief and agnosticism.
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I'm a skeptic, so oddly that means I find the possibility of enlightenment now more likely than enlightenment later, i.e. postmortem. It's an idea that calls for lowering the bar until enlightenment is something that can be achieved. High bar enlightenment sounds like an unachievable goal-- either a poorly chosen goal or a goal that you don't actually expect to achieve, sort of how a goal might be "to always do better at my handwriting" or "continually be more creative", goals that are more like directions of continual movement.
If I had to assent or not to a particular formulation of enlightenment, I'd probably answer differently.
Of course I could be wrong, but then again it doesn't matter (to me), because "enlightenment" - as some ultimate goal of 'spiritual perfection' - is not a goal I'm striving for, myself...
Same with enlightenment. Introduce me to someone actually enlightened, and I'll then firmly believe it's possible. But until you do, I'm going to be very skeptical.
However, there are tons of wise principles within Buddhist teachings that don't rely on enlightenment, so I'll continue living a relatively secular Buddhist life.
And of course any really awake person probably hangs out alone in the woods and no one knows they are awake.
:om:
First there is no 'enlightenment', secondly you are cementing his belief in his 'position' in society.
I was in NYC 2 weeks ago. I was feeling good-natured to a guy who was begging outside a pizza store. I asked him what he would do with the money I was about to give him, and he said, I will book myself into a $22 room and have a shower sir'. I gave him about $4.50, and he was off - straight to the 'liquor store'...
maybe you should have given him 30 dollars... enough for the room/shower AND the liquor?
now it may be more skillful to offer to buy some food or some such instead of just giving money, this is also dana, and however the person chooses to react to that is their own kamma.
Hope that helps.
I imagine the same is true for so-called "enlightenment."
"enlightenment" is what happens when you flip a switch in a dark room
now a better question is, is there such a thing as a switch?
just like how a man who stands up on a water slide to proclaim he is successfully sliding will mute his very victory, one must wholly give themselves to the process. this is true wisdom of no-self
experince and mental frames and dwellings are ground and path.
fruit .. well, you will simply have to bite in for yourself.
You can tell yourself there isn't and stay put.
Or you can get up and look for it.
And wouldn't it be funny if, having looked for it and having found it and having switched it on, you see the room is full of enlightened people trying not to laugh at what an idiot you've been all these years thinking you were alone in the dark?
If it's possible to be more than a little bit free, then it's possible to be a lot free.
If it's possible to be a lot free, then it's possible to be more than a lot free.
If it's possible to be more than a lot free, then it's possible to be all the way free.
:om:
No one can argue with what you said... however, that's the easy part.
You're only mentioning the negative aspects of one's life/behavior.
What about attachment to what we view as "positive" things- the 'good things'?
Sure, free yourself completely from greed, hate, ignorance, anger, etc....
but does one really need to free themselves - completely - from beauty, love, relationships, and all the other positive forces and behaviors in our lives?
I never saw the point in that. And this is probably where most Buddhists who've been practicing a while, (and are not monks) find the path most difficult.
I understand the concept of attachments and becoming a clinging vine to them, but I also understand there is a way to walk the Middle Way and grasp the idea that ALL aspects of our lives, behavior, & circumstances are impermanent/changable and not to cling to, or obsess on any of them; good OR bad.
Just tossing out some thoughts....
If they don't originate from greed, hate or ignorance, then no you would not need to be free of them because they don't cause suffering to begin with. The Buddha never said you need to free yourself from things that don't arise out of those three things.
Although, he did say it's important to know what originates from where and that we have a habit of of deluding ourselves as to what originates from where. So it's possible for us to believe that some thing does not originate from one of these 3, when it actually does. So it's possible for us to believe that some thing won't cause suffering, when it actually does.
Attachment to the "good things" cause suffering too. For example, attachment to good heath will cause suffering when good health disappears and bad health appears. Attachment to beauty will cause suffering when beauty disappears and ugly appears. Attachment to being alive will cause suffering when death appears, etc, etc. To experience good health and not cling to it is fine. To experience being alive and not cling to it is fine. But, To experience good health and not cling to means it really is ok to get sick. To experience being alive and not cling to it means it really is ok to die.
Non-clinging, non-attachment, freedom, (insert whichever other word here) all mean the same thing IMO.
Ananda said that relationships were half of the holy life. Buddha said 'don't say that for they are the whole of the spiritual life'. (Not quoted exactly)
My teacher wrote a book about dying and she recommends relaxing into your 'heart connections' which are like love and compassion for people you know.
there is no such thing being written in Pali-Canon. The right word would be AWAKENING. Meeting Maro Dusi is much more evident. It´s showing that you have
advanced a long way on the path.
sacco
Without telling us what you mean by enlightenment , we cant give you a genuine answer...
However, for me I believe enlightenment is just an understanding of how things are or how something is and works.. Etc..
So i believe enlightenment does exist..
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=33_synonyms_for_Nibbana
"6. Not having reached Enlightenment oneself, do not seek to prove what it is with clever words; and, while still in confusion, do not make others confused.
10. When one realizes the Truth, The GuruPath takes form, so achieve Enlightenment for all Sentient Beings."
So, he encourages everyone to reach enlightenment. It seems that the problem with some people is that they get some revelations and think that is the final truth, which they call enlightenment. After some years on my path, I started to get real revelations that has made me believe in enlightenment. I like the buddha boy's strict virtue, because enlightenment without virtue is evil. Look at the history of the illuminati on the planet, going back to Lucifer himself. Lucifer offered the knowledge of good and evil, which is a form of enlightenment, however at the loss of immortality. A lot of luciferian illumined ones claim to have great clairvoyance but at the price of practicing evil. Then, if you read the Book of Enoch, you see how the fallen angels (The watchers) taught humans many secrets, and ended up messing things up very badly on earth, pre-flood.
To me, it is not about whether enlightenment is real, because it is...it is about what is the RIGHT enlightenment.
"19. Whether or not one is enlightened and what one has to bear is justly determined according to the accumulated merit of each soul traveling on the Way being shown by Guru." (Maha Sambodhi Dharma Sangha Guru's Message in Chitwan of June 8, 2013)
I don’t think people can be enlightened if that means they have supernatural powers or if that means the serene smile on their face will be there forever.
You can’t change the basic characteristics of a species. We are human and we inherited some irreparable flaws in the genetic design.
The enlightenment that I can believe in includes accepting the facts of life and is not some childish fantasy.
I would have to hear the specifics before I could discern whether I am being enlightened or if I'm still in the dark. Whether there is a light to see by or just a projection letting me see what I want to see.
So in short yes, yes i do.