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Contemporary Bodhisattvas: Kurt Cobain

mindatriskmindatrisk Veteran
edited December 2013 in General Banter
This will be a controversial proposal, as I know Kurt Cobain divides a lot of people. Some see him as almost a demigod, whilst others see him as a loser junkie. But that is a comment on the nature of subjective perception, not on the nature of the subject. The Buddha is a false God to some, a demon, even, to others. So, i'll just make my case and see what others think.

First of all, a Bodhisattva incarnates in specific circumstances in a specific way to benefit certain living beings. Most Bodhisattvas do not incarnate as Buddha's, or even as obvious spiritual beings. Instead, a Bodhisattva will incarnate in a form suitable to the needs of the 'target group'.

The target group that Kurt Cobain's Bodhisattva nature intended to help was the youth - the Generation X - of the early nineties. Generation X were known to be disaffected, disillusioned, little hope for the future, and little connection with the world that their parents generation had created. What's more, the eighties culture of greed and materialism had left a generation emotionally and spiritually vacant. The popular bands at the time sang about girls, drinking and partying.

When Kurt Cobain and his band became popular in September 1991 it came from nowhere. There was no expectation for the band to be a success, but from literally being nobodies in September 1991 they were the biggest band in the world by Christmas and knocked Michael Jackson off number one in the following January. Their success was so rapid that Kurt was still living in his car when his band were number one.

Kurt Cobain and his music ushered in a new era of music that emphasised integrity, emotional honesty, and moral values. Their music awoke a whole generation and gave them someone and something to connect with - somebody who represented honest, human qualities. He did not act with ego, he was humble, kind hearted, sensitive, and millions of 'kids' from around the world connected with him in a way that is extremely rare, to the point where when he killed himself there were copycat suicides.

It is difficult to overstate just how much of an impact Kurt Cobain had on millions of kids around the world. He literally changed their lives, and whilst he spoke of no overt spiritual message, he somehow expressed a profound message about life, not so much through his actions, but through his being. He was incredibly charismatic and magnetic. It is something that is hard to describe if you do not belong to that 'target group' that he had such an impact on, but for many millions he was revered as a religious figure, and his legend and continuing impact on our culture is only increasing with time.

There are very, very few human beings who have had the positive impact that Kurt Cobain has had on millions around the world. He made it a positive thing to be a good human being, a caring human being, a socially aware human being, someone of integrity. An overt religious figure could not have achieved this. The Buddha could not have achieved this. Jesus Christ could not have achieved this. Not because they lacked the spiritual power, but because their presentation would not have suited that audience. Kurt Cobain was perfectly shaped to deliver a message about life to a specific audience who desperately needed that message. To me, he was a true Bodhisattva.

A few further things to consider. His band was called 'Nirvana', he addressed his suicide note to his childhood imaginary friend called 'Boddah', he had shown an interest in Buddhism and Jainism, and because of this his ashes were spread in a Buddhist monastery. Again, I think these are significant clues as to his true nature and purpose for being here. I think there are some who might understand what i'm sharing here, but I understand that most will see this as absurd. It all depends on the point of view! The more I see of the cultural impact he has had 20 years after he died then the more I realise that this was a very special being indeed. :)

Jeffreybetaboy
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Comments

  • You're kidding, right?
    riverflow
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Any credibility you previously had with me is now gone.
    Invincible_summer
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    No comment.
  • matthewmartinmatthewmartin Amateur Bodhisattva Suburbs of Mt Meru Veteran
    He was a dude in samsara, one of many Buddhist leaning celebrities. I think some non-Buddhists, or merely Buddhist leaning people can become enlightened by accident, I don't think this is a good example of that.

    As for Boddhisatvas, they're all about moving others to enlightenment, I suppose a person of modest accomplishments could do something to move others towards enlightenment. I'm not so sure Nirvana's music encouraged moving towards enlightenment and they guy's life wasn't much of a model. He is sort of a poster child for samsara though.

    The internet says as a celebrity, people couldn't figure out what his religious beliefs were. This contrast with say, Richard Gere.

    http://hollowverse.com/kurt-cobain/
    "Cobain’s spiritual beliefs are difficult to nail down. He was certainly a tortured soul who turned to drugs and suicide for relief. But he might have turned to these religions for some sort of solace as well. Only those who knew him closely could say."


    Courtney Love practices Nichiren. Celebrity endorsement, for better, or worse (Scientology, I'm looking at you), can encourage people to practice one religion or another. HHDL is a celebrity for that matter.
    NiesjeInvincible_summer
  • I don't think he was a Bodhisattva, but he had a level of spirituality and inward focus that was rare in his generation. He was insane. I mean actually, clinically insane. Not harmfully so, other than to himself, but he didn't see the world clearly. But in some ways, he saw the world more clearly than everyone else. I read his biography and it was a very good book that gives you a better look at who he was. I think if you read it you would understand that he was really just damaged. It's called "Come As You Are" by Michael Azerrad.
    JeffreyInvincible_summer
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited December 2013
    Interesting idea. I personally don't think that he was some kind of highly-realized being or that he had as big of a positive/spiritual impact as you suggest; but I do agree that his music was emotional honesty and that he was positive influence for many, including myself.
    JeffreyInvincible_summer
  • :coffee:
    Invincible_summer
  • Bodhisattva or buddha, no.
    Influence, yes for good or ill but an influence nonetheless.
    Tortured soul, yes. Loser, no. Loser is a judgemental word.
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    does it really matter if he was, or if anyone else was/is?

    also I wonder how skilled we must all be at judging whether someone is a partially enlightened being ;)
    Invincible_summerHamsaka
  • The thing is, a Bodhisattva does not necessarily incarnate as an enlightened being, nor to enlighten others. I'm not saying Kurt Cobain was enlightened - he wasn't, he was very ill. What i'm saying is that Kurt Cobain was a character played by a Bodhisattva mind to achieve certain goals that would help others on their way to enlightenment. Giving millions and million of young people permission to be true to themselves, to be emotionally honest, to have integrity, to be socially conscious, is an incredible achievement... incredible. Could anyone here even conceive of how they themselves could achieve that? Forget about what you know of Kurt Cobain and instead look at what resulted from his existence, because the results are astonishing, and so either those results were caused purely by accident, or they were the workings of a very highly developed mind. Again, not that Kurt Cobain himself would be aware of this or conscious of doing it, but just that his life was designed to achieve these things.
  • Niesje said:

    I don't think he was a Bodhisattva, but he had a level of spirituality and inward focus that was rare in his generation. He was insane. I mean actually, clinically insane. Not harmfully so, other than to himself, but he didn't see the world clearly. But in some ways, he saw the world more clearly than everyone else. I read his biography and it was a very good book that gives you a better look at who he was. I think if you read it you would understand that he was really just damaged. It's called "Come As You Are" by Michael Azerrad.

    Forget about how Kurt appeared. What matters is the results. A Bodhisattva will manifest in an appropriate way to achieve their desired aims. If that means incarnating as the appearance of a drug using rock star as a means of connecting to millions of people then so be it, because it's not the appearance that matters, it's the results. And the results were, and continue to be, incredible.
  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
    edited December 2013
    This whole thing is like discussion whether or not Chogyam Trungpa was enlightened.

    Besides, what does it matter?

    Kobain certainly touched the hearts of millions.

    So has Alice Cooper - the big difference is Cooper didn't kill himself (just pretended to on stage). Cooper isn't a Bodhisattva, is he?

    Django Riehart was a guitar player who inspired the music of others long after his death. How about Robert Johnson? Died young by another's hand, but has inspired countless blues players since. Bodhisattvas? Hardly.

    I always thought of Kobain as a self-indulgent narcisist, bent of self-distruction as some sort of personal statement.

    Now that I think about it, the same could be said about CTR, too.
  • He was a dude in samsara, one of many Buddhist leaning celebrities. I think some non-Buddhists, or merely Buddhist leaning people can become enlightened by accident, I don't think this is a good example of that.

    As for Boddhisatvas, they're all about moving others to enlightenment, I suppose a person of modest accomplishments could do something to move others towards enlightenment. I'm not so sure Nirvana's music encouraged moving towards enlightenment and they guy's life wasn't much of a model. He is sort of a poster child for samsara though.

    The internet says as a celebrity, people couldn't figure out what his religious beliefs were. This contrast with say, Richard Gere.

    http://hollowverse.com/kurt-cobain/
    "Cobain’s spiritual beliefs are difficult to nail down. He was certainly a tortured soul who turned to drugs and suicide for relief. But he might have turned to these religions for some sort of solace as well. Only those who knew him closely could say."


    Courtney Love practices Nichiren. Celebrity endorsement, for better, or worse (Scientology, I'm looking at you), can encourage people to practice one religion or another. HHDL is a celebrity for that matter.

    A Bodhisattva has the wisdom to understand that enlightenment is rarely achieved in one life time. So, to move million of kids from a mindset of greed and self-interest (the eighties) to one of emotionally openness, integrity etc. is a significant step forwards towards enlightenment... not in this life, but much sooner than would have been without that presence.
  • Chaz said:

    This whole thing is like discussion whether or not Chogyam Trungpa was enlightened.

    Besides, what does it matter.

    Kobain certainly touched the hearts of millions.

    So has Alice Cooper - the big difference is Cooper didn't kill himself (just pretended to on stage). Cooper isn't a Bodhisattva, is he?

    Django Riehart was a guitar player who inspired the music of others long after his death. How about Robert Johnson? Died young by another's hand, but has inspired countless blues players since. Bodhisattvas? Hardly.

    I always thought of Kobain as a self-indulgent narcisist, bent of self-distruction as some sort of personal statement.

    I don't think that Kurt Cobain was enlightened - not consciously. I think he was a character devised by a Bodhisattva mind to achieve certain goals. I don't think Alice Cooper even compares, but that is a subjective thing, I guess. I don't see anyone in modern music history who compares to Kurt Cobain in the respects i'm talking about.
  • And it's those little details that make it even more compelling... His band was called NIRVANA. He had an imaginary childhood friend called 'BODDAH'. And as a young man (27 when he died) he had a developing interest in Buddhism. Bodhisattvas manifest in many different ways. I see Ayahuasca as a Bodhisattva. I see Jesus as a Bodhisattva. I see the internet as a Bodhisattva. We can't allow our narrow understanding to determine the nature and function of enlightened beings. All we can do is to look at the world and look at the results and manifestations of certain appearances and contemplate their truth. I don't believe reality to be accidental. I don't think that resulted from Kurt Cobain's life could just be an accident. The results are just too meaningful. He is one of the defining cultural figures of the last 20 years without a doubt. That's no small thing. Accident or design? I see design there.
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    Or, one sees meaning where they want to.
    poptartJeffreyZeroInvincible_summer
  • DaftChrisDaftChris Spiritually conflicted. Not of this world. Veteran
    I think he was another soul who, like the rest of is, was subject to suffering. In his case, great suffering. He may have reached to an entire generation of people with his music, and many may have been positively inspired by said music, but that hardly makes him a Bodhisattva. However, I do think he had a spiritual side to him that many lack today.

    Also, the fact his band's name was "Nirvana" or he had an imaginary friend named "Boodha" is irrevelant.
    vinlynJeffreyriverflow
  • You are letting your imagination get the better of you.
    I could be wrong about this. The Bodhisattva ideal is a personal choice that one takes as their own path.
    It's not like sainthood that is applied to someone after they have died.
    If we are electing bodhisattvas my vote is for Bob Dylan.
    We were into sex drugs and rock and roll too!
    Jeffrey
  • robot said:

    You are letting your imagination get the better of you.
    I could be wrong about this. The Bodhisattva ideal is a personal choice that one takes as their own path.
    It's not like sainthood that is applied to someone after they have died.
    If we are electing bodhisattvas my vote is for Bob Dylan.
    We were into sex drugs and rock and roll too!

    Bodhisattvas are supreme compassionate beings who, out of compassion, continue to incarnate into samsara until all living beings are enlightened. They rarely incarnate as overtly enlightened beings simply because in many cases this would not be helpful. For example, the millions of kids that Kurt connected to and were affected by would not have connected to and been affected by a Buddha. So, why incarnate as a Buddha? If I was a Bodhisattva and I was looking to incarnate in a lifetime that would positively impact millions of kids then i'd incarnate as a rock / pop star. That would be the perfect vehicle for this world.
  • DaftChris said:

    I think he was another soul who, like the rest of is, was subject to suffering. In his case, great suffering. He may have reached to an entire generation of people with his music, and many may have been positively inspired by said music, but that hardly makes him a Bodhisattva. However, I do think he had a spiritual side to him that many lack today.

    Also, the fact his band's name was "Nirvana" or he had an imaginary friend named "Boodha" is irrevelant.

    I'm not talking about Kurt Cobain being a Bodhisattva, i'm talking about a Bodhisattva manifesting as Kurt Cobain. I don't think Kurt Cobain was consciously enlightened. I think he was a character designed to serve a purpose, and that purpose was to progress the spiritual development of a whole generation of lost youth. He did that. That is no more small accomplishment. No-one else has done anything like it. If a spiritual teacher had the results that Kurt had then he'd be a revered spiritual master. So, i'm asking, was it purely accidental that Kurt achieved these results, or was it by design?
  • It's still only a personal choice to take those vows.
    Many Buddhists don't accept the idea of bodhisattvas, or reincarnation either.
    So its something for the imagination.
  • robot said:

    It's still only a personal choice to take those vows.
    Many Buddhists don't accept the idea of bodhisattvas, or reincarnation either.
    So its something for the imagination.

    I think we are talking about slightly different things. I'm talking about realised Bodhisattvas, you seem to be talking about practicing Bodhisattvas. You can take the Bodhisattva vows in this lifetime, but it might be many lives until you become a realised Bodhisattva. And yes, in emptiness, everything is imagination. :)
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator



    I'm not talking about Kurt Cobain being a Bodhisattva, i'm talking about a Bodhisattva manifesting as Kurt Cobain.

    Is there really a difference? If a bodhisattva was manifesting as Kurt Cobain, then Cobain was a bodhisattva.
  • Jason said:



    I'm not talking about Kurt Cobain being a Bodhisattva, i'm talking about a Bodhisattva manifesting as Kurt Cobain.

    Is there really a difference? If a bodhisattva was manifesting as Kurt Cobain, then Cobain was a bodhisattva.
    Compare it to you playing a computer game. You can play a character in a game, but that character is not you. You can play as Mario, but that doesn't mean that Mario is you. Does that make sense?
  • vinlyn said:

    Any credibility you previously had with me is now gone.

    All I can suggest is that you try not to look at my posts at face value but to look for the underlying message. When I share an idea for 'Guerilla Dhafare' i'm not just saying that you should talk about dharma on internet forums, i'm saying 'there are countless ways for us to creatively spread the dharma into peoples lives'. When I say 'Kurt Cobain was a bodhisattva' i'm also saying 'look at the world in a different way, look at the blessings we receive, look at the blessings we overlook, look at the blessings we don't comprehend'.

    You see, because the world is so mundane and normal to us we expect a blessing to appear like a miracle, and it's only when a blessing appears in some slightly miraculous way that we recognise the blessing and appreciate it. But the truth is that when we look closer we can see that we are being blessed in many varied ways over and over and over, but because these blessings are so skilfully blended into our realities so as to not compromise our experience of the world we overlook them.

    Forget whether you agree or disagree about Kurt Cobain. That doesn't matter. What matters is seeing the blessings of the world. The internet is a perfect example. If there are Bodhisattvas then the internet is such an obvious manifestation. The benefits that it has brought humanity are astonishing, but do you feel blessed? Do you feel like some incredible karma has ripened for you as you message me from wherever you are to wherever I am? Probably not... but it has! You and I are incredibly blessed to have the internet. It has transformed the world... even more than Kurt Cobain!

    What other manifestations of Bodhisattvas do you see?
  • Why is the world so mundane and normal? Look out the window. There is no need to imagine wonders.
    riverflow
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited December 2013

    Jason said:



    I'm not talking about Kurt Cobain being a Bodhisattva, i'm talking about a Bodhisattva manifesting as Kurt Cobain.

    Is there really a difference? If a bodhisattva was manifesting as Kurt Cobain, then Cobain was a bodhisattva.
    Compare it to you playing a computer game. You can play a character in a game, but that character is not you. You can play as Mario, but that doesn't mean that Mario is you. Does that make sense?
    So bodhisattvas, what, sit up in the Pure Land playing Nintendo, and with our lives no less? If so, Cobain wasn't even much of a person then, but more like a pixelated automaton who made some cool music, influenced some teens in a positive way, and motivated others to kill themselves. Not the best theory, in my opinion, but YMMV.
  • robot said:

    Why is the world so mundane and normal? Look out the window. There is no need to imagine wonders.

    That's easy to say, but i'll hazard to guess that you generally do not experience the world as a wonder but mostly as mundane and normal. I might be wrong, if so, I apologise, but I think it takes a lot of mindfulness and awareness to experience the world as a wonder - which I think it is, but i'm okay to admit that much of the time what my mind experiences is fairly mundane and normal.
  • Jason said:



    So bodhisattvas, what, sit up in the Pure Land playing Nintendo? If so, Cobain wasn't even really a person then but a pixelated puppet who made some cool music, influenced some teens in a positive way, and motivated others to kill themselves. Not the best theory, in my opinion, but YMMV.

    I think i've confused you. :)
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    Or you're just not making much sense.
  • Jason said:

    Or you're just not making much sense.

    Maybe.
  • I can't say that I have been bubbling over with bliss at all times, but life has been anything but mundane these last few years.
  • robot said:

    I can't say that I have been bubbling over with bliss at all times, but life has been anything but mundane these last few years.

    Arhh well, i'm very happy for you. I'm sure you'll acknowledge that most people seem to experience life as mundane and normal, regardless of whether it actually is or not, and it was to this that I was referring.
  • We are all shined upon by the dharmakaya. From some perspective we are all bodhisattvas, but from a kitchen sink level we are big time ignorant. Kurt was big time ignorant. He could be here today to tell us but he gave up.
  • robot said:

    I can't say that I have been bubbling over with bliss at all times, but life has been anything but mundane these last few years.

    Arhh well, i'm very happy for you. I'm sure you'll acknowledge that most people seem to experience life as mundane and normal, regardless of whether it actually is or not, and it was to this that I was referring.

    Yes. It does look like a grind for some people.
  • Jeffrey said:

    We are all shined upon by the dharmakaya. From some perspective we are all bodhisattvas, but from a kitchen sink level we are big time ignorant. Kurt was big time ignorant. He could be here today to tell us but he gave up.

    Forget 'Kurt', and instead look at what resulted from his life. Kurt as you and I know him may have been very specifically and purposefully designed to accomplish the results that came from his life. Including the drug abuse and the suicide. A Bodhisattva doesn't need to incarnate as a holy being - nor even a 'good' being, just as an effective being. Kurt was an effective being. The results that followed his life are barely comprehendible. There are many spiritual teachers who would (metaphorically) kill to benefit as many people as Kurt did. At the level of 'Kurt' then Kurt was indeed very ignorant, but that was what was needed for him to connect with so many people. The kids connected with him because they related to him. So, again, forget Kurt. Kurt was the appearance that produced the necessary results. Kurt not being a perfect spiritual being is the exact point... he was who he was because that was what was needed to produce the results.
  • It's all very mysterious @mindatrisk
  • Jeffrey said:

    It's all very mysterious @mindatrisk

    It is, and we don't know what the truth is behind much of what appears before us. But I think it is very beneficial to our happiness to see blessings even if we run the risk of imagining these blessings... not that i'm sure it makes any difference either way. :)
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    OK now I have to comment:

    With the greatest humility I have to admit that I don't know if Kurt was a boddhisattva

    But I struggle that someone attained the title, took these vows, or something similar

    Beings are numberless;
    I vow to free them.
    Delusions are inexhaustible;
    I vow to end them.
    Dharma gates are boundless;
    I vow to enter them.
    The Awakened Way is unsurpassable;
    I vow to embody it.

    And then blew his brains out. This is not the work of an awakened mind.

    I am sorry but I really don't see it @mindatrisk. Apart from the name of his group Nirvana - which a boddhisattva vows not to enter until they have helped liberate every other being from samsara, there is nothing to lend weight to your argument. I am happy to stand corrected.

    I offer this image of manjushri (the wisdom boddhisattva) to you all:
    image
    May it enable you to refocus your attention on the work of the true boddhisattvas that are working for all of us, past, present and future.

    Also I agree with @Robot: Why do you see the world as so mundane and normal? it's bloody awesome!

    Mettha
  • I want to point out that vinlyn, to whom you are offering advice on how to view the world, is a retired educator and school principal.
    Imagine, if you will, the countless people who he has influenced in his career. Generations of young people.
    One doesn't need to make a big splash or splat to make a difference.
  • anataman said:

    OK now I have to comment:

    With the greatest humility I have to admit that I don't know if Kurt was a boddhisattva

    But I struggle that someone attained the title, took these vows, or something similar

    Beings are numberless;
    I vow to free them.
    Delusions are inexhaustible;
    I vow to end them.
    Dharma gates are boundless;
    I vow to enter them.
    The Awakened Way is unsurpassable;
    I vow to embody it.

    And then blew his brains out. This is not the work of an awakened mind.

    I don't think that Kurt had an awakened mind. I think the being 'Kurt' was very messed up. BUT, I think it was by design. I think this character 'Kurt' was manifested by a Bodhisattva to accomplish certain aims. The main one being to awaken and mobilise a generation of 'lost' youth.

    Kurt was like a medicine. He was designed to heal a certain ailment, and he did that... and that is what matters. When you have an illness you don't care what the content of the medicine is, you simply care whether it is effective. Likewise, with Kurt, it doesn't matter what he seemed to be made up of, only that what he was made up of was effective. Kurt didn't work for older generations because they didn't suffer the ailment that the youth did.

    That Kurt was a drug user, depressed, etc. are not bad things, because those conditions were what allowed him to connect with and help so many kids. It's just like how some medicines have a poison in them - toxic normally, but when used to remedy an ailment they become helpful.
    anataman said:



    Also I agree with @Robot: Why do you see the world as so mundane and normal? it's bloody awesome!

    See my reply to Robot above. :)

  • robot said:

    I want to point out that vinlyn, to whom you are offering advice on how to view the world, is a retired educator and school principal.
    Imagine, if you will, the countless people who he has influenced in his career. Generations of young people.
    One doesn't need to make a big splash or splat to make a difference.

    I didn't say they do. Everyone makes a difference. But some people do make big splashes, and it is okay to acknowledge that. I'm sure Vinlyn did a great job as an educator, but the fact that Kurt Cobain affected more than him is not a slight on him and his efforts, it's just how it happens to be.
  • robot said:

    I want to point out that vinlyn, to whom you are offering advice on how to view the world, is a retired educator and school principal.
    Imagine, if you will, the countless people who he has influenced in his career. Generations of young people.
    One doesn't need to make a big splash or splat to make a difference.

    I didn't say they do. Everyone makes a difference. But some people do make big splashes, and it is okay to acknowledge that. I'm sure Vinlyn did a great job as an educator, but the fact that Kurt Cobain affected more than him is not a slight on him and his efforts, it's just how it happens to be.
    True. But it doesn't make them puppets of some other imagined beings.
  • anatamananataman Who needs a title? Where am I? Veteran
    edited December 2013
    Sorry missed that reply to @Robot

    But: you said: "I don't think that Kurt had an awakened mind. I think the being 'Kurt' was very messed up. BUT, I think it was by design. I think this character 'Kurt' was manifested by a Bodhisattva to accomplish certain aims. The main one being to awaken and mobilise a generation of 'lost' youth."

    Youth today are fairly numbed by the images that abound of violence and violent death , sex, and suicide. Another celebrity killing themselves - just 1 more on the tally chart.

    There is a flaw in your argument - for a boddhisattva to rebirth as Kurt and then kill himself in this way would require great awakening and attainment - and as such would have more skilful means at his disposal to achieve the goal. I don't see an awakened and mobilised youth out there, I see kids and adults alike immersed in virtual worlds blowing virtual brains out.
    Jeffrey
  • I'm going to bite, as usual.

    @mindatrisk, you could side-step a lot of controversy here by leaving out the mystery of whether "Kurt was a Boddhisatva" or not.

    Instead you could say that Kurt was a cultural icon and a tortured musical genius. Through that he touched and moved many teenagers. But that's no different to any musical genius or such icon throughout history. You could say the same as Jim Morrison of The Doors. Go back further, and there are thousands of descriptions of composers moving audiences to tears in classical concerts.

    Why go beyond that? Why go conjuring up very debatable descriptions of reality which, from the above, are not agreed by everyone.

    I think most people would agree though that Kurt was a cultural icon. That's not really controversial.

    btw I never thought much of his music and he is right in my generation, I was about 13 when they came out and boy they were huge. I preferred listening to music about girls, parties and cars myself. Go Beach Boys!
    robot
  • robot said:

    robot said:

    I want to point out that vinlyn, to whom you are offering advice on how to view the world, is a retired educator and school principal.
    Imagine, if you will, the countless people who he has influenced in his career. Generations of young people.
    One doesn't need to make a big splash or splat to make a difference.

    I didn't say they do. Everyone makes a difference. But some people do make big splashes, and it is okay to acknowledge that. I'm sure Vinlyn did a great job as an educator, but the fact that Kurt Cobain affected more than him is not a slight on him and his efforts, it's just how it happens to be.
    True. But it doesn't make them puppets of some other imagined beings.
    Maybe not. I'm not claiming Kurt is a Bodhisattva, but what i'm saying is that if Bodhisattvas operate in the way that I have read that they operate (Kadampa Buddhism) then I think Kurt would be a strong candidate. Again, the reason for this is simply the results. In the space of a couple of years he transformed youth culture in a way that most spiritual teachers could only dream of. If I were asked to devise a plan to achieve the results that Kurt did then it'd be impossible. No human mind could purposefully achieve what Kurt did. So, if it was an accident then fair enough - good karma for that generation, but given the impact he had, given the timeframe, given how precise and positive the results were, and given the scale it was achieved on, i'm comfortable seeing it as by design, not chance.
  • vinlyn said:


    Generally speaking, a movie is just a movie. A novel is just a novel. A rock star is just a rock star. A television show is just a television show.

    A cigar is just a cigar.

    vinlyn
  • anataman said:

    Sorry missed that reply to @Robot

    But: you said: "I don't think that Kurt had an awakened mind. I think the being 'Kurt' was very messed up. BUT, I think it was by design. I think this character 'Kurt' was manifested by a Bodhisattva to accomplish certain aims. The main one being to awaken and mobilise a generation of 'lost' youth."

    Youth today are fairly numbed by the images that abound of violence and violent death , sex, and suicide. Another celebrity killing themselves - just 1 more on the tally chart.

    There is a flaw in your argument - for a boddhisattva to rebirth as Kurt and then kill himself in this way would require great awakening and attainment - and as such would have more skilful means at his disposal to achieve the goal. I don't see an awakened and mobilised youth out there, I see kids and adults alike immersed in virtual worlds blowing virtual brains out.

    I think you underestimate the impact Kurt had. I think he was precision engineered, and his being was a manifestation of an immensely skilful mind. I cannot imagine it is easy to connect and influence such a cynical, confused, disillusioned generation in the way he did. I mean, the Dalai Lama was around, some consider him to be enlightened, but his being didn't influence that generation anywhere near the degree Kurt did, if at all. Why not? Of course, the generations didn't turn out to be perfect because Kurt was not here to offer enlightenment because enlightenment wasn't what was desired. But what he gave made a difference, and whilst those generations may still have a lot of issues, without Kurt's presence it might have been a lot worse. Progress was made, even if slight.
  • vinlyn said:

    robot said:

    I want to point out that vinlyn, to whom you are offering advice on how to view the world, is a retired educator and school principal.
    Imagine, if you will, the countless people who he has influenced in his career. Generations of young people.
    One doesn't need to make a big splash or splat to make a difference.

    I didn't say they do. Everyone makes a difference. But some people do make big splashes, and it is okay to acknowledge that. I'm sure Vinlyn did a great job as an educator, but the fact that Kurt Cobain affected more than him is not a slight on him and his efforts, it's just how it happens to be.
    First, thanks to Robot for his nice comments. Yes, I like to think I made a difference, at least occasionally. And have been told I did. As have and do millions of other teachers and counselors and administrators. But, I and we are just humans doing our job.

    Trying to make a druggie/suicide into a Buddhist icon is crapola. I'm not saying he was a worthless person or anything close to that. But a Buddhist icon. Pure BS, IMHO.

    But I'll quote another entertainer. Another just a man who once said, "Hell, it's just singin'."

    One thing that I see every once in a while here is an attempt to see Buddhism in something the individual likes. Generally speaking, a movie is just a movie. A novel is just a novel. A rock star is just a rock star. A television show is just a television show.

    Even entertainers who are gifted, are almost always just entertainers.

    And to try to compare Kurt Cobain to Buddha and Christ...it's just plain offensive.

    This isn't what i've said.
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