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If this is such a 'Modern World'....
federica
Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
....Why is this still happening....?
.......Am I the only one amongst us who is also of the opinion that Saddam Hussein's trial was in no way a fair one?
Have a look at these facts....
3 Defence Lawyers murdered.
Original Judge quit, citing political meddling.
2nd Judge barred, for being a member of the Ba'ath Party.
3rd Judge had relatives in Halabja, where Kurds were gassed by Hussein's forces, so he was biased....
Saddam constantly claimed the trial was not just, as he was still the elected President of Iraq, and has not been voted out of Office. According to the UN, this is a perfectly justifiable and incontrovertible fact....
Former U.S Attorney General, Ramsay Clark was thrown out of Court for indicating that the trial was a travesty. He had gone so far as to actually join Saddam Hussein's defence team!
The International Council for Transitional Justice is demanding a re-trial.
The timing of the Verdict - just before the elections - has been widely condemned....
Amnesty International has joined the protest at the unfairness of the trial, saying it was not impartial. They further added that other prominent International Judges should have been included, and a better protection system implemented....
Even with everything going against him, is this not really a very prejudiced way to proceed?
Could he ever actually get a fair trial?
.......Am I the only one amongst us who is also of the opinion that Saddam Hussein's trial was in no way a fair one?
Have a look at these facts....
3 Defence Lawyers murdered.
Original Judge quit, citing political meddling.
2nd Judge barred, for being a member of the Ba'ath Party.
3rd Judge had relatives in Halabja, where Kurds were gassed by Hussein's forces, so he was biased....
Saddam constantly claimed the trial was not just, as he was still the elected President of Iraq, and has not been voted out of Office. According to the UN, this is a perfectly justifiable and incontrovertible fact....
Former U.S Attorney General, Ramsay Clark was thrown out of Court for indicating that the trial was a travesty. He had gone so far as to actually join Saddam Hussein's defence team!
The International Council for Transitional Justice is demanding a re-trial.
The timing of the Verdict - just before the elections - has been widely condemned....
Amnesty International has joined the protest at the unfairness of the trial, saying it was not impartial. They further added that other prominent International Judges should have been included, and a better protection system implemented....
Even with everything going against him, is this not really a very prejudiced way to proceed?
Could he ever actually get a fair trial?
0
Comments
The main problem, I think, is that from the very beginning the media controls how much and what we're all being told.
So no matter how guilty he is, it could never be 'fair', not least because most people 'expected' this sentence.
What the West has done in Iraq is, in my mind, reprehensible; we have effectively dismissed the UN as irrelevant, and invaded another country on the premise of a lie to effect a regime change. World affairs are no longer democratically decided by elected representatives in an international, neutral governing body; instead, they are decided according to the foreign policies of the countries with the biggest armies. I honestly despair of this world sometimes.
Sorry, but the execution of living beings does not indicate anything even close to a victory for humanity.
_/\_
metta
By invading Iraq, the Coalition made Saddam Hussein's actions a matter for international judgment. Had he been deposed by an internal revolt and then tried by the new regime, there could be said to be some legitimacy. The invasion made that dubious.
The position of a head of state is a strange one vis-a-vis national law and international relations. The h.o.s. is in a very special position and one which fellow h.o.s. guard jealously. History gives us a salutory lesson: Elizabeth I hesitated for years over executing her cousin Mary. The only reason was that Mary was, like Elizabeth, (and, to some, more legitimately) a "queen anointed". It set a precedent which was available to Cromwell and the regicides when considering the fate of Charles I. The two, together, were cited by Robespierre when arguing for the death of Louis XVI.
It has, however, been the general rule that heads of state who are violently deposed are either quietly done away with or imprisoned for later disposal. This leaves the other heads of state in their 'special' position. The suggestion that there should be an international court which would have jurisdiction and would supervise the sentencing of 'war criminals' has been scuppered by the largest nation - no prizes for guessing why! Indeed, the British government dislikes the idea. They opinion in Whitehall is that virtually any military action under modern war conditions would be a war crime prima facie. The slogan of the armed forces would become "Join the Army and get a criminal record."
I couldn't agree more! Well said.
Yeah, I think it was kind of a farce. Better to just get rid of him quietly (exile or swift death if need be) than make a showcase of the trial.
I think it just gave Shiites a chance to humiliate Saddam, and Saddam a chance to rally his own tribe and Sunnis in general. Why rub salt over a wound?
The actual chance of anything fair is non-existant, USA supports and chooses who it wants financially to run countries, there is no real freedom. U go against that even by law.. it will be ignored by them, lets not forget how this 'illegal war' started.
Saddam is the rightful president and so forth but it was never going to be fair. Its America's way or the highway.
I immediately laughed when I read 'his hanging is a triumph for the democracy of Iraq'. I don't know what was more ridiculous; the idea that executions are a triumph for democratic nations, or that Iraq is actually a deomocracy.
I have always been opposed to this war/occupation/thing. I side with the Vatican on issues of war in so far as it should be used as a last resort in defense of a civilization and not invasion for economic or political gain.
One more thing. The catchy prahse 'war crime' which we attach to the losers of a war is quite silly. I see war itself to be a crime against humanity.
The question is put: what is a democracy?
If we are to judge it by voter turnout, for example, Iraq is more democratic than the US or the UK.
Celebrin,
You don't like us Americans very much, do you? Whatever. That's your problem. Just about everything you post is full of intense dislike towards anyone who does not agree with you and especially if the person is an American. I certainly don't dislike you just because you are from the UK. The reason I don't like you is because of the hateful rhetoric you spill! You may not like what I have said here, (and I don't really care, either!) but I am not gonna let you get away with spewing your venomous dislike for America and Americans by the inflammatory and hateful remarks you post about my country! I have not seen one post from another person here who is from America that puts down people from the UK, and if there is---well---find the post where it does to prove it! In fact, you are the only one I have seen from the UK who posts such venomous and hateful remarks towards others who disagree with you and especially towards Americans!
What really gets me is the fact that you post that Saddam Hussein is the rightful president. Yeah, right! Somehow, I am sure that all of the Iraqis who have lost loved ones that were tortured and executed on Saddam Hussein's orders are all really angry that he has been ousted from his position as the rightful president of Iraq!
As for your remark about Saddam Hussein being hired by the CIA, well that's a new one to me! Can you post a link or something that proves this to be true? As I have said, I have never heard of this before!
Oh, and another thing: There are plenty of Americans, including me, that do not support the war in Iraq. That has been evidenced by the fact that Democrats now control both the House of Representatives as well as the Senate here in America. I know that I am so happy that the 12-year Republican control of the Government has been ended and I also know that I am not the only one, either! In fact, there are a lot of us Americans that were (and still are!) totally bewildered as to why all of a sudden the Government was going after Saddam Hussein since Osama Bin Laden and his terrorist organization were the ones responsible for 9/11 and all of the horrible atrocities that were committed that fateful day! By the way, I lost my first cousin that day, too. He was at work in his office in the North Tower that horrible day...He was just an innocent man going about his own business earning a living to support his wife and three kids who are still grieving at his loss as do I.
I will be the first to admit that there are many things wrong with America but, then, I am a natural-born citizen of America and I have a right to say that about my own country. I am also doing something about the problems and wrongs because I vote in the elections and do my small part by being a part of the solution instead of the problem. By the way, have you ever even been to my country? I doubt it! I have been to London, England and I was made to feel very welcome by the hospitality and kindness that was extended to me and my family by everyone we came into contact with there. In fact, I have quite a few friends from Great Britain, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. It is also because of these friends that I don't have a biased opinion of the UK and also, I do realize the fact that some people who are committing the wrongs in a particular country do NOT represent that entire country, either. Maybe you should try realizing that as well and maybe, just maybe, I might just take you seriously. SHEESH!
Adiana:usflag:
Well said and I agree!
Adiana:usflag: :hair:
Olivia,
That's what I think too, and I absolutely agree!
Adiana:usflag: :hair:
Methinks that the terrorists have won an important battle when they divide old friends and set them against each other.
For years, my USian friends and I have exchanged our opinions about our own and each other's regimes. During the Reagan/Thatcher era we were united in our disgust at the impoverishment of debate and the oppression of the impoverished. Each side had some ideas to contribute to the possiblity of minimising the damage.
We were certainly aware of the flaws in each other's history and institutions. In that awareness, neither side of the Pond could take any sort of moral high ground. True, the occasional debating point would be scored: we all come from countries with genocidal histories.
The vital - and central - point was that, despite any criticisms that we might have, we also respected and admired the achievements too. The US 'experiment', in all its newness and bright shiny optimism, sets goals such as "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" which challenge European cynicism. The length of European history with the recent experience of brutal war and occupation, including the Holocaust, brings the possibility of accumulated data by which to speculate on outcomes. Only together can we even hope to come up with new solutions to age-old problems.
When one side or the other saw some possible problem arising from present action, we would warn, just as dear friends do when they see one of their number in a destructive relationship.
Today, the whole tone of US/Europe debate has changed. The threat of terrorism and the ongoing attacks have led us to interfere directly and with military force in other countries to enforce regime change. The result appears to be that we no longer respect or admire each other's differences. Insults and reminders of national shame fly across the ocean. Dangerous strereotyping arises. It is dangerous because, once true difference is reduced to caricature, the object of the caricature is de-humanised and, these days, demonised. As a result, they can be attacked without damaging our own humanitarian purity. It is only half a century since we opened the gates of the concentration camps, twelve years since the Rwanda genocide: is our memory so short?
As Buddhists, we have a message even for those who are, apparently, uninterested in the discipline of practice: hatred and war will not be ended by more hatred and more war. For 2500 years, the words of the Buddha echo in the wilderness that there is another way.
I apologize if I have offended you because that was not my intention. I am just so sick of the venomous hatred being spewed by Celebrin against my country. I just could not let his comments go unchallenged. I realize that we all have problems in our respective countries but I do at least realize that the decisions of a few key people do not represent the entire attitude of the country in question. Just about everything he posts is so derogatory towards America and Americans and I am just sick and tired of it so I expressed my feelings about it. Once again, if I offended you, I am sorry.
Adiana:usflag:
Adiana, dear sister, you did not offend me in any way. I think that it is important that we defend that which is good and much that is good is to be found in the US ideal as well as in its history. We can all recite the chaplet of names of horrors, mistakes and atrocities - on both sides. We may well bear the shame of inheriting 'stolen goods', all of us, whether in Turtle Island or as heirs to the British Empire.
What offends me (and it is clearly not your position) is the assumption of moral superiority by onde set of nationals over another. Surely, there is so much good on which to build, so why do the "antis" only want to scream about the bad?
and i don't think the american govt can defend itself justifyably against just about any war its gone into.. and a huge degree of its policys, both foreign and at home.. this has nothign to do with the ppl , the 'americans'.. .. its a nasty govt and much of the world agrees with that..
after all america is pretty much the most hated country in the world.. Jordan, the middle east,Korea.. even here.. ur allies.. UK
.. whether this is aimed at teh ppl or not.. is another matter.. i know better but many don't..
i think its the severe attachment problems and patriotism that has made america the 'international bully' it is concieved to be. After all look at the whole 'im proud to be part of the master race" got germany.
any attachment and thought that u belong or owe anything to a bit of land.. is pretty ridicolous. All ppl are equal and all land is the same.. its just land.. the sun is the sun wherever you go.
I'm not anti-american or pro.. but i agree theres many things wrong with america.. like all countries.. but a lot at least aren't as patriotic
Celebrin,
I am proud to be an American just like you are proud to be from the UK even if you won't admit it. You are definitely right in saying that I am patriotic to my country and I am not ashamed of it either and also, for the record---I don't think that I am being "ridiculous" as you put it, either! While I am proud of being from the United States, I am not being ethnocentric as you clearly are. I definitely don't think that the U.S. is better than any other country at all, and I think that everyone in the world should be proud of where they are from. I think that's what makes our world such an interesting place.
Maybe this is not your intention, but your post implies to me that you think you are so much better---or "holier than thou"---than all of us poor, pitiful, deluded people here in America---or in any other country---that are so attached to a "piece of land" as you put it. You bet I am attached to this "piece of land" that is called America! The reason? My ancestors are buried here as well as my close loved ones like my husband, father, brother, uncles, and two of my first cousins who died as a result of terrorism and/or war.
You mention "look where it got Germany because they believed in the I am a part of the master race thing." Well, there again, you are being condescending to the German People because there is a difference between the German People and the Nazis! I know in my history books I was taught that it was the NAZI party who believed Hitler's crap about the superiority of the Aryan (or German) race over the Jews. The German People had no choice but to go along with it or they would be executed or thrown into a concentration camp otherwise as well as having their properties confiscated! By the way, what I thought so peculiar about that is the fact that Hitler is from Austria and not from Germany. LOL! Also, if I remember correctly, it was the U.S., the British Commonwealth, France, the Soviet Union, and China that were Allies against Germany, Italy, and Japan who made up the Axis powers, so it's very definite that most Americans don't believe in the "hey look at me; I am part of the master race thing!" or the" Nyah! Nyah! I'm an American so I am better than you thing," either as you are insinuating.
Also, another question I have been wondering about: Why is it that if "America is the most hated country," then why is it usually these same countries that supposedly hate America so bad that are always the first in line to ask for money to help them improve their well-being? HMM! I wonder! LOL! And, no, I am not being ethnocentric by saying that, either! I think that it is a good thing that America can help other countries to improve their quality of life if this is what these countries want. As a matter of fact, I think that it is a wonderful thing if ANY country can help another country that needs help to improve that country's quality of life.
As for your comment that the American government cannot justify getting involved in "just about any war that it chose to get into", to me, that is erroneous. The only two wars that the U.S. got involved in that I don't agree with are the current war against Iraq and the Vietnam war. In my opinion, the Vietnam war was strictly for political and monetary gain and was therefore wrong in my opinion. My father's brother died in that war and his name is on the Vietnam Wall, too. In fact, there are a lot of Americans who did not believe in the Vietnam war either. As for the war in Iraq---most Americans, including me, think that it's just plain wrong. As a matter of fact, a lot of Republicans even think that the war in Iraq is wrong!
You also mention that the "Native Americans did not believe in the fact that countries exist; that they are the product of names and labels, materialism and corruption and that the Native Americans did not believe in it and neither do I." Sorry, but I guess I am confused as to just what you mean, here. If I remember my history correctly, the Native Americans are very patriotic in the fact that they PROUDLY mention their history and actively teach it to all of the next generation so that it will not ever be forgotten. You say that the Native Americans know that "a piece of land is just a piece of land." Well, if this is the case, then why did the Native Americans believe in fighting for the land that their forefathers told them was rightfully theirs? Also, if this is the case, then why do the Native Americans revere MOTHER EARTH and Father Sky? At least, this is what the Native Americans that I personally know tell me about their particular belief system.
You mention that "I am not anti-American or pro but I agree there's plenty of things wrong with America, like other countries, but a lot at least are not as patriotic." Well, I disagree with this because I know a lot of people from different countries who are very patriotic about their respective countries. As I have mentioned elsewhere in this post, I think that there's nothing wrong with being patriotic to your country and that's as it should be. To me, the world is a wonderful place and so are most of the people in it. The reason I say most of the people in it is because there are good and bad people anywhere in the world. Also, if this makes me naive in your eyes, then so be it!
And now to my final words:
As a friend of mine suggested to me in a PM, it might just be best to agree to disagree with you, so that is what I am doing here. It is also certain to me that you are as set in your attitudes and opinions as I am to mine. Therefore, this argument is now a waste of time and it also does not really matter anymore to me because I have said what I wanted to say. Good luck to you and Happy Holidays to you as well.
Adiana:usflag: :rockon:
LOL!
Adiana
But after repeated breaks of teh treaty by 'white men' the army had to constantly go in and protect its civvys.. even thought they had broken the treaty.
THe indians didn't believe land belonged to anyone, and you can look it up in history books or ask 1. They moved about all the time following the buffalo, this was their life..
i don't care bout being from UK, i think ppl jakking bout their ancestors is false attachment, ur ancestors have no place in this life. They aren't here, you didn't know them and they don't really bear much to do with you cept how u look.
Being patriotic is more of a USA thing. I don't care about being 'british' i think thats an awful thing to label someone as.. The brutal truth is its just a piece of dirt somewhere on the globe no different from another..
A more relevant thing to say is I'm from earth.. but then if we had colonised planets it would be irrelevant.
i think being patriotic is what drives countries especially usa to these disgusting things. Being singled minded and looking out for specific ppl on some land.. u never been to and don't care about just because they call emselves american.. all ppl are equal so doing somethign for the benefit of a group of individuals at the cost of others countires ppl.. is stupid.
Invading places for profit and so on..
ppl in UK ain't much like that, at least my generation and my dads.. the patriotic ppl in general here are pensioners from ww2 and ww1..
i'm not proud i was born on a bit of dirt.. i couldn't care less.. its some dirt.. u can't put a stamp on something like that and say its mine.. its pretty stupid in reality.
U know.. we can't own the sun.. or a galaxy, you don't actually own a person, cus they have free will.
its yet anotehr name and sterotype that bears no real relevance except for those who can't see beyond perceptions and names.
And america really is the most hated country in the world.. think bout it for a min, all the countries that have been wronged and all teh countries which aren't helped.
Govt policy and the general public are different. Look at africa it needs probs most help in world. but theres nothing to gain so they don't bother much, not like iraq anyway, and as i believe they owe america money.. members in the govt may not hate usa.. but ppl do
but as it goes general ppl and hatred, out of all the countries in the world.. usa comes top on hatred. I saw some stats on how often USA goes to war.. its pretty nasty..
i don't feel superior and holier than art thou.. thas just not true.
There are no groups and Buddha teaches that, You are not an american and im not british and anyone who see's that in my opinion has a problem.
We are, I think, today, in a strange position vis-a-vis the land on which we stand.
You refer to the indigenous peoples of Turtle Island but I fear that you miss an important point about their relationship with the land. I would guess that you are a city-dweller, as was I until my mid-20s. "Concrete and clay beneath my feet" prevent touching the earth and learning its story.
The native peoples of Australia, for example, know the story of each stone and tree within the borders of the land they walk. They need to learn new stories if they move away, which is what has caused such pain in the relocations caused by then then "most hated" nation: the British Empire.
Here, in Britain, we have at least 6000 years of 'earth stories'. The decimation of the young in the '14-'18 conflict, which led to movement off the land into the labour-starved cities, also brought about this collective amnesia. Perhaps it is the same pain that the Australian Aborigine or the Turtle Island Native American express but which we suppress. After all, look at what has happened among those displaced peoples: their young people drop out of school, drunkenness, drug abuse, criminality and violence are endemic. As one of my "Ndn" friends tells me: "Crystal meth is finishing off the job that Custer and his like started." And then look at our own "sink estates". I can see no functional difference. And both are inhabited by the uprooted.
Living as I do now in a small, semi-rural, semi-industrial community in Gloucestershire, I have discovered, slowly and over some 20 years, that there remain real traces of ancient sense of the land. Among the most ancient is the fact that people still use a local pierced monolith as a healing place and young couples seeking illicit copulation still use places on the Common which show signs of similar use all the way back to the Iron Age. Local waterways are being cleaned and restored, just as Prince Bladud, further off in Bath, cleared the spring of the goddess Sulis.
This is not the nationalism of "Britain ueber alles". It is a sense that we belong, in some way, to the land on which we were born or have come to rest. We owe it the respect of getting to know it, to understand its gifts and needs. Any gardener or allotment holder will tell you: a successful gardener is one who acknowledges that here the soil is well-drained, there boggy, and working respectfully with what the earth offers.
This is not a patriotism that sanctifies a piece of cloth or a national anthem. It is one that rises in arms when the land is under attack by developers. It is one that cares about its home turf. It is somewhat NIMBY (Not In My Backyard) because it senses that the land is more than just a blank space onto which humans can put whatever they like. It is the patriotism of conservation and ecological awareness.
Not much has improved since Dickens described the spiritual impoverishment of the urban poor. If anything, it has got worse. In The Old Curiosity Shop, Little Nell and her grandfather were in fields just north of where I was born: Camden Town. Today, it's a seriously long walk before pavement gives way to healthy earth.
One of the most significant moments on my journey towards the Dharma was an encounter with 'deep ecology' and Joanna Macy's work. I find that, within the multifold traditions that make up Buddhism, there is space for a real sense of interconnectedness which goes both beyond and deeper than nationalism. I understood, too, that mudra of the Shakyamuni Buddha touching the earth has deep meaning for me. I need these images to bring my own fuzzy perceptions into focus. And I need direct contact with the earth and the weather. I need to know that, a hundred yards from my front door, at the crest of a slow slope, the temperature is usually a fraction higher and Spring comes two to three weeks earlier than in my garden. The pride in knowing and being known by this place.
Since birth, I have been very short-sighted. The Buddha, the Dharma nd the Sangha are effective lenses through which the blurred becomes clear.
We may appear to have strayed into a different subject but I think it is actually germane to examine patriotism and nationalism. They are relatively recent concept, born very often of war. I can think of a few modern examples: Germany comes into being as a result of the Franco-Prussian War of 1870; England and France define themselves as a result of the Hundred Years War; China arises from invasion and becomes a single empire. These are nations coalescing from previously disparate smaller units. At the same time as nations create themselves, they also create the notion of the 'capital' city. This is usually the main town of the dominant culture around which the nation has been formed. As capital, it now demands, as of right, increasing levels of resources. It ceases to be productive itself, other than in goods and services which encourage further consumption. It ceases to be self-sufficient. It will, additionally require larger and larger infrastructure, particularly of labour.
One of the myths of the founding of Rome, which may be the example that all capital cities since have imitated (just look at Washington, D.C.: it is Rome reborn), was the Rape of the Sabine women and the creation of Rome as a sanctuary city. These two actions attracted labour away from the countryside. The next step is that natural population increase fails to keep up with labour need. After all, a person is hardly any use until it is about seven or eight years old when it can do jobs needing small hands and bodies. It's a long time to wait and they tend to die before they move on to adult tasks. The city then demands that people, if they will not come of their own free will, be compelled to come.
I could go on but I am sure you see where this leads. It leads to where we are now.
As with climate change, we really need to start taking action to stop the trend because it is disastrous. The transformation of resources needed to house and clothe into non-essential consumables must be reversed. I fear that we may fast be approaching a tipping point but I know that I no longer see clearly. I am infected with the virus of age. I caught myself saying, only the other day, "I remember when all this was fields"!
Is it possible that the world has always seemed like this: a mess teetering on the edge. Perhaps only in memory or imagination were we ever any different. Is humanity, like Trump Zero of the Tarot, a fool walking blithely off a cliff? Perhaps each generation sees itself as the last - and worst!
Whatever may be, I find the poison of the appeal to patriotism, like that to 'national security' is usually followed by the removal of some part of my freedom, some new repression and some new profit for the owners.
Patriotic fervour, at a national level, has been with us for as long as we buy the notion of the 'nation state'. We spent the Twentieth Century imposing such states on Africa and the Middle East. We drew lines on a map and said: "To this side of the line you belong to X country and on the other to Y. You are no longer the same." In this way we divide the Masai Tribes and the 'Bushmen', Israel and Palestine even. We gave each country a flag, too. There was all sorts of fuss over a new flag for Iraq I recall. We install nationalism even before we draw people to the ballot box.
i had a teacher, i read books.. i guarantee you, they had real reservation and a lotta disgust towards 'whites' they didn't have any choice but to leave, and they felt taht they should be abel to go anywhere they wanted same as everyone.. its europeans that stopped that.. they wanted europeans gone because of what they were doing.. destroyign the forrest, killing their brethren, they almost wiped out the buffalo.. this wasn't really a land dispute cept from europes view.. europeans wud come and settle in territory allocated by USA govt to indians and scare away buffalo.. and shoot at them..
whats their gods got to do with it? baffled at that point.. yea they worshipped the 'spirits' each tribe had their own background 'descendants of the wolves and so on'..
when i hear about ancient indian buriel grounds, and curses and so on.. i laugh because they didn't believe in ownership of land.. so why on earth wud an indian say "get of ma land white man"
did indians have bits of paper with deeds on them.. hmm no.. did they resent white ppl for booting them off the area they grew up in.. then shooting their friends.. forcing them into christians.. leme think.. thats not ownership of land.. but a huge scale attack on their culture which they repeatedly tried to calm by peaceful methods only to be atatcked again and again
its just a really bad stereotype adopted like many things.. as fit as a fiddle means 'im in normal health' not 'im in amazing health , i feel great!' things get distorted over time, and weird views occur.. i'm sure u can think of some.
and patriotism.. i think is wrong, no-one is actually in a social group, its in our minds that this occurs and is created. When ppl ask you what music you like, or what films.. you can't in all honesty say i only like so and so. I think this is attachement and a product of no indentity and self.
Social groups whether being british,a muslim, a jew, a nerd.. are all products of materilism, single mindness and real down right dirty self.. So when ppl go on about being proud to be american or british or w/e i feel like shooting myself.. cus of teh sheer ignorance garbage they just threw at me. Its just painful to hear.. Honestly its all covered in Thich Nhat Hahn, and Tibetan book of living and dieing.. social groups = suffering and hate... an di don't see how you can argue versus it
as for modern society.. well id rather live in bronze ages.. ive never had a big disease in ma life.. not even chicken pox.. and the kinda life back then appeals to me more than this now..
how come everything gets more complex with more technology.. technology is meant to make things simpler, i find it weird.. cus ppl revolting or the equivilent of 'terrorists' back in medieval days cudn't really do as much destruction cud they.. run at a guy with a sword, get mowed down.. lol
*enthusiastic applause*
/:L
I agree that America is not looked upon well in the world. It is viewed by many as overly arrogant and intrusive due mostly to this war.
Republicans are partially to blame, as well as democrats alike. But I rarely complain about politics. You know why? Because this is the best we can do. If these guys are so bad, where are all the great minds of this country. Where are the Churchills and Rosovelts and Lincolns? Our current leaders are a product of American culture, education, society, and family. This is what we have to show for ourselves.
The true great minds stay away from politics to do more productive things. The rest is what is left over in charge.
Rambling,
That's why I quit arguing with him. It's like arguing with a brick wall. Whatever. I guess since I am a citizen of "the most hated country in the world, I guess whatever I say will always be wrong to him and others of the same mind here. Again, whatever.
Adiana:thumbsup: :usflag:
As I stated before, it does no good to argue with you; what's the point? You will continue to spew your venomous hatred of America and and Americans. That is quite evident in what you usually post---there is usually some mention of how terrible the USA is somewhere in most of your posts! Whatever!
Adiana:usflag: :usflag: :usflag:
Peace to all.
Roerich Peace Flag
Simon,
I'm sorry. I have done some soul-searching last night and it has occurred to me that I allowed Celebrin to "push my buttons" so to speak and also I have allowed myself to get drawn into an argument that goes nowhere. For that, I am sorry. I have also learned that I have been acting in a matter that is not correct for me since I practice Buddhism. I talked to a fellow member who I look up to as a mentor and she told me that instead of focusing on Celebrin's opinions and actions, I should focus on my behavior and work on my own attitudes and to not allow myself to be drawn into such a pointless argument and debate. You know something? My mentor, Misao, is absolutely right! After much study and reflection, I feel so much better and I once again feel that I am on the correct path again! What a relief! However, I do feel bad that I got caught up into such a pointless argument and have, quite possibly, offended newcomers here or even current members. If this has been the case, I am sorry to those I may have inadvertently offended.
I wish everyone here a most joyous holiday season and I also wish nothing but the best of what life has to offer everyone here. Take care of yourself, Simon! I also wish to say thanks for the wake-up call, my friend! LOL!
Adiana:usflag:
Nothing is truer of these boards than that most people who stick around want to learn. It reminds me of a school-friend's mother who has just celebrated here centenary with a super party and messages from the Queen, the French President and the Pope. She used to give us kids double portions at meals. When I asked why, she would answer, in her soft Irish voice, "Because you have two jobs to do: grow and improve."
Over time, I have allowed myself to get wound up and have gone off like a rocket. I have been discourteous and saracastic. I have 'shown off' and 'puilled rank'. Each time, some dear friend here, but posting or by PM, has written gently (usually) pointing out the problem. Each time, I have learned more about how the mechanism of my mind is put together.
It is good to have such loving friends.
Humble pie can be both delicious and unpalatable, but it's good to eat of it from time to time.
guilty as charged, glad to off-load...
Cheers.
How's about a cuppa with the pie....?
How are you? Yes, it can be delicious and unpalatable as the same time, but I have to say I feel better. Anyway, as a matter of fact, I am sitting here drinking a cup of Earl Grey and eating a piece of a chocolate cake I made from scratch! LOL! What a combination, eh?
You and Nick have a nice holiday season and take care!
Adiana:thumbsup: :usflag:
Simon,
Yes. It certainly is great to have loving friends who care enough to point out when we may have gotten off-track. Take care!
Adiana:usflag:
Whenever you see, hear, smell, taste, touch, or think something, there is through the process of dependent co-arising a subsequent feeling (of pleasant, painful, or neutral) involved. This feeling in turn conditions craving, clinging, becoming, et cetera (SN 12.2). When you think about it this way, there is no real reason to apologize for this natural process of conditionality as all sentient beings are subject to the very same process until the remainderless fading and cessation of that very ignorance which is at the root of it all.
I think what matters the most is how we relate to those feelings. There will be times when we do not react in the most skillful of ways, but we will learn valuable lessons from those times if we pay close enough attention. I make mistakes, and I need time to learn from those mistakes; change does not always happen overnight. I think that the same goes for every human being on the planet. Sometimes we simply need to reevaluate our situation and determine if there is a more skillful way in which to respond to those feelings.
Regards,
Jason
Thank you, Jason! Have a nice holiday season, okay?
Adiana:wavey: :usflag:
Bunny,
You are right! Thanks for the reminder. Have a nice holiday season.
Adiana:usflag:
as 4 adiana.. i've reached realistaion on names.. you should read some more thich nhat hahn if u disagree with me. There is soo much information on attachment and indentity that you need to read. This will open ur eyes on ur attachment and 'love for a piece of turf'
Elohim.. i also agree.
over.. and no more words nyway
Celebrin,
I don't need your advice, thank you. I have already decided this argument is a waste of time so please do not attempt to draw me into another one. Think what you want; it matters not in the final analysis in my opinion anyway. Have a nice day.
Adiana:usflag:
That was very sweet of you to say. You too Adiana! :smilec:
Wait -- you're still clinging to that post of mine? Let it go, man...Let it all go, and you'll be the better for it. Ever heard of something called nonattachment?
And also, when was I ever "speaking of it being a homeland"? The word appears nowhere in my post, and for you to take it upon yourself to assume my intent is pure arrogance. And we all know what happens when you assume...
You make an ASS out of U and ME.
(To all but Celebrin, apologies for substituting "U" for the proper "you.")
Just what is this 'us' other than self reflecting back self, or are we?
"I am defined by what I do, not on how I feel inside."
Batman Begins-2005
Oh, I'm in the wrong section. LOL:poke:
At this time of the Thanksgiving holidays, I know that my brothers and sisters across the Pond are thinking of the native peoples of Turtle Island. This emphatically notan attack of the USA but I am trying to help those, like Celebrin, who have little or no contact with Native American history.
The notion that the people had no concept of 'nation' is countered and contradicted by the history of the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois Confederacy) and the Five Nations. As Jefferson acknowledged, the notions and even some of the wording of the founding documents of the US owe much to the Great Peacemaker who is called Skennenrahawi (Two Rivers Running Together) by my Mohawk teacher. Nowhere else had such a concept of unifying, by peace and treaty, disparate nations been attempted - and certainly not effected so successfully.
The fact of the nationhood of the Original Nations is enshrined in the US institutions, even if honoured in the breach: the government in Washington has concluded many treaties with them. This is not the place to examine the sad history of treaty breaking. What matters is that these were and are international treaties. The Nations are understood to be nations within the nation.
Why not join us, Celebrin, in positivity rather than remaining in the cold of your negative position?
Palzang
Iawa,
Since this argument was between Celebrin and myself, I see no need for you to start it up again. Celebrin and I are over it, now. Please leave it alone. It's over and done with and was a private matter between the two of us. There's no need to re-hash something that's over and done with. Have a nice holiday season.
Adiana:usflag: