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I call it "Guru-Speak" and it shows how the Enlightened teachers of the world share a tradition that arose from India mystics. I've also heard it described as "Transformation Talk". For instance, every Guru talks about "living in the present" or "living in the Now" or some such. It equates to the Zen talk about "Mindfulness". Then there is "we are one" in various permutations, equating to the Buddhist non-duality. Then we also have "life is illusion" and some sort of statement about how we have to let go of our preconceptions about who we are and what we are, etc.
I suppose using the word Truth might be an attempt to describe what is beyond the illusion. I'd call it "just like this" which is pointing to the reality of the present moment. The one fairly unique metaphor I've read from Tolle so far is his invention of the "Pain Body". Buddhists have their own jargon, but I'm not sure we have something to compare to that strange teaching.
Thing is, if someone is seeking for a way of putting meaning into their lives, they could do much worse than follow Tolle's teachings. I always read my posts on someone like him and think I'm being too critical. He's not asking you to join a cult, give him your bank account, or move to some collective farm and sing his praises every morning. Buy a book from him and pay a few dollars for a webpage is a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.
I think that Tolle's experience might be of a particular type..He himself describes his teachings as ' natural mysticism '. A while back there was a study of a particular phenomenon, whereby people, sometimes after spiritual striving and effort, sometimes apparently spontaneously, have an experience of ' oneness' and 'timelessness '.
The question arises whether this experience is the same as the goal of Buddhism.
I think there is reason to suppose that it isn't. Although at some point Buddhist meditation may give rise to similar phenomena.
In a real sense although we all may have the potential to realise the goal of Buddhism, the goal is not ' natural '.
No one not exposed to Buddhist teaching is going to come up anything approaching D.O...no one ever has.
When Taoism and Vedanta are compared to Dhamma, they can been shown to incorporate lofty states..but they are ignorant of D.O.
The truth of Dependent Origination does not occur as a result of any ' natural' process.
It is specific to Buddhism and to Buddhist practices. It is the result of a particular Awakening.
And the Buddha himself said that there is only one way to that Awakening..he called his Dhamma the " Ekayana " The One Way.
This of course does not sit well with our modern multicultural ethos.
Tolle uses these words in rather mysterious and pseudo-mystical way but doesn't explain what they actually mean.
"Now" seems to be something more than just experiencing the present but it's far from clear what.
And what on earth does "Truth" mean? It's about as meaningful as "God".
What do you think they mean?
I'm not sure what you mean by "mysterious and pseudo-mystical way". When I read TPON it seemed to me that Tolle was attempting to express insights he had acquired through his own experience, enlightenment, whatever. He uses normal everyday words precisely to avoid the kind of jargon that can alienate people. But it's no mean feat to explain something so beyond most people's normal everyday experience in a way they can understand.
The problem with language is when we move outside of the common ground of experience we either have to make up new words for things, or delve into a hefty lexicon of tired religious cliches. Tolle deliberately avoids using words like mindfulness and God because these words carry a lot of baggage and confusion will likely arise.
I think that Tolle's experience might be of a particular type..He himself describes his teachings as ' natural mysticism '. A while back there was a study of a particular phenomenon, whereby people, sometimes after spiritual striving and effort, sometimes apparently spontaneously, have an experience of ' oneness' and 'timelessness '.
The question arises whether this experience is the same as the goal of Buddhism.
Actually, a psychologist would probably label what happened to Tolle as an example of "Metanonia", a fundamental break and change in a person's basic ego consciousness resulting in a long term and stable new way of dealing with life. Just because we stick a label on something, though, doesn't mean we actually understand it.
I think you may mean ' metanoia '.
Is metanoia a result of Buddhist meditation ? Interesting. There is a term 'pavritti ' which means ' a turning about in consciousness ' But it is seen as a necessary precursor to samadhi , rather than a result.
We need some words like TRUTH or NOW that point to something that cannot be pinned down.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@mettanando said:
As a general rule I do not think we need ' Dhamma plus ' anything.
There are books and teachers whose content and/or teachings are clearly derived from the Buddha. They are more than enough for twenty lifetimes.
There isn't anything 'outside' the Dharma that would qualify for Dharma plus, if it is teachings, encouragement, technique or whatever that points one toward Awakening.
I wouldn't know how to differentiate between what is ONLY the Dharma, unless to make sure every book is written by a person identifying as Buddhist and every teacher has a lineage that goes back XXX number of teachers' teachers.
It's pretty obvious to me the Dharma is not a proprietary to Buddhists. I am open for suggestion and proof that I am missing an important point, or just plain wrong.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
I have the same attitude toward cutesy capitalization and everything else you said, @SpinyNorman.
"The Power of Now" is such a lame title for a book that after I downloaded it and listened to 20 minutes of it (while trying to figure out what the power of now was) I switched audiobooks and didn't try again until last month.
"Now" as I understand it (my unpacking of Tolle) is interchangeable with the commonly used word "Presence", which I hear and read a lot from western Buddhist teachers.
Who, in turn, use the word "presence" to mean something they unpacked from their own traditional Buddhist teacher.
"Now" is a state of being where attachment and self are extinguished. In his book A New Earth, Tolle goes on at great length about 'anatta', a word he never uses, but explains using his own habitual phrases. Tolle does not SAY "here's the teaching about not self" but he sure does explain it well and apply it to examples of dippy human behavior at least as well as a western Buddhist teacher (my opinion, of course)
Here's one for ya that Tolle uses a lot: "Unconscious" He pretty much deems every act of human stupidity, ignorance and evil as "unconscious". I'm still working on figuring that out. I sort of intuitively 'get' where he's going because how he fleshes out his concepts is thorough, but it hasn't come clear for me yet.
People have to make a living and if they can realise that people are on a treadmill, and people wish to jump a few steps because they see there is a goal, and are willing to pay forwhat they will get anyway - then more fool them.
What is a voyage of discovery anyway?
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@AldrisTorvalds: your post sounds and 'feels' like my experience with Tolle and even other non-Buddhist teachers/mystics/whatevers.
Tolle does go on to exhaustive lengths describing and giving examples, including active application, for Now, Stillness, Being.
I'd love to hear him give his thoughts about the Four Noble Truths in more depth than he does. He does mention them, and goes on to explain 'dukkha', and though I haven't heard him say the words "eightfold path" he spends time describing right speech, right mindfulness, right 'work', etc -- just not in a condensed concept as did the Buddha.
He often uses Sufi teachings and stories, and Zen stories. How he 'interprets' Christ's teachings from the Christian bible are a whole 'nother issue, though. He has to work very hard with some of them
It's too easy (and probably wrong in some fundamental way) to deny the veracity of one person's awakening versus your preferred method. I'd like to ponder this with an open mind. Anybody else up for it?
I leave the veracity of anyones awakening to be acertained by the fruit that it produces.
Does it ...cease from evil, do only good & purify the mind-heart?
Does it move others towards suffering's cessation?
Does it demonstrate compassion, tenderness, love, empathy, sympathy, benevolence and wisdom?
The fruit sorts out the real worth of any understanding.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
It's too easy (and probably wrong in some fundamental way) to deny the veracity of one person's awakening versus your preferred method. I'd like to ponder this with an open mind. Anybody else up for it?
I leave the veracity of anyones awakening to be acertained by the fruit that it produces.
Does it ...cease from evil, do only good & purify the mind-heart?
Does it move others towards suffering's cessation?
Does it demonstrate compassion, tenderness, love, empathy, sympathy, benevolence and wisdom?
The fruit sorts out the real worth of any understanding.
Can't argue with that, unless I am just trying to be 'right' about my preferred beliefs being superior in quality to someone else's.
A mind can be too open and the result is brains falling out on the floor; but the fruits are easy for anyone to recognize, even the least educated or disciplined mind can grasp if teachings or behavior results in purification, suffering's cessation, benevolence, wisdom and love.
Of course if you don't WANT to acknowledge the fruits . . . or if you want to acknowledge fruits that aren't there . . . oh how easily we delude ourselves.
I am extremely guilty of poking my nose up in the air at 'new age' stuff, and a great deal of it is barely worth a sniff . Not because it doesn't INTEND to promote 'good' but because it does so in service of aggrandizing the 'self' (or ego as Tolle goes on about). The 'fruits' are people walking around with airs of superiority, how much more 'spiritual' they are than the unwashed masses, having been told they were Ramses II a few incarnations ago.
Even Buddhism (gasp!) is harnessed in service to the ego, especially in disguise of long boring 'debates' or people nit picking semantics in transparent effort to be 'right'. There is no need to defend the Dharma, even from idiots.
Tolle might be making it up as he goes along because I discovered that the
Ego is actually only shore leave for the meditatively challenged?
The real truth is that
our minds are actually data input pirates with run away hoarding issues. The only real practice is getting your pirate to share equal captaincy with the other sight, sound, smell, taste and feeling sailors on board that he formally lorded it over.
With my easy step by step instructions you too can to coax this rogue into a more appropriate book keeping position and finally bring some equanimity to the whole ship.
Feeling nautically queasy in stormy seas?
Act now and you too can reserve your own luxury berth to the other shore.
One simple PM of your credit card info and you'll wonder why any other rickety raft building instructions ever seemed plausible to anyone.
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
A data input pirate with runaway hoarding issues? That is brilliant. Beyond brilliant, probably.
The outstanding, glaring issue I have with Tolle is this fruit; he has not rejected his own marketing plan. I hope someday he does. That he has not rejected this 'temptation' of our day and age -- which I assume an actual awakened being would have done -- parses him out, if nothing else does.
Then again, I 'learn' from certain fiction writers and my geese. That doesn't mean I confuse them with arhants.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I'm not sure i get your point: The Buddha never rejected his marketing plan either, but continued to talk of the Dhamma to his dying words.....(not suggesting Tolle and the Buddha are comparable in the enlightened sense of the word....)
Expand?
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
Ah, yes. By marketing I meant the money generation machine, the 'product' bought and sold. Thanks, that's an important distinction.
"Marketing" is just spreading the word, getting the 'product' out there and known by as many as possible. I can't think of what word or term to use in place of 'marketing' in my post would fit more with what I'm thinking :buck: .
@SpinyNorman said:
I also think there are different degrees of awakening. Comparing Tolles awakening to the Buddha's awakening is IMO a bit tenuous.
by the time of Buddha's awakening He had abandoned the following defilement during his six years of acetic life
the fermentations to be abandoned by restraining,
the fermentations to be abandoned by using,
the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating,
the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding,
the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying,
the fermentations to be abandoned by developing,
others have to continue their practice even after the First awakening to the Truth if they had not practiced to abandon fermentation by restraining, using, tolerating, avoiding, destroying and developing
The truth about the ego is that it is actually "you" so whatever you think your ego is doing wrong etc is actually you doing it....& whatever you think your ego is, is actually the real you at this moment in time....That's every thought emotion & feeling, you create them all yourselves....Every negative thought is actually spoken by yourself, & all those unwanted emotions & feelings are as well....So the ego never makes you do think or say anything bad, people do it will fully because they haven't yet learn't why they shouldn't be doing it, & they don't realise they can have full control of their mind emotions & feelings....It's not some imaginary thought bubbles floating around, that makes anyone receive their unwanted thoughts....It's because their actually thinking them at the time, because they haven't learn't how to do or be without thinking....It is actually possible to picture a task without thinking, & then do that task, & most people are a long way from being able to do that....There is a massive flaw in Eckharts work because although his teachings do work & they work really well, they will in my opinion leave someone in an emotional neutral zone which is very very difficult to get out from....A total lose of all identification is what will happen to a person who does his training, but if the person is aware that that will logically happen after our identification with our ego mind has been eliminated they should eventually get through that "real" zone....Think about it like this we are here to build real human beings, & we're all in the middle of the human race....
@SpinyNorman , I like what the power of now does for so many people. It helps people see straight away that what you believe is true may not be the case. Someone who may not have ever heard or cares about dharma, may still have read the power of now. This is good.
My opinion is that Tolle didn't have the same awakening as many others like the Buddha. Purely because he refers to himself as the witnesser of events.
But this is still a huge profound realisation for anybody.
@Hamsaka said:
Ah, yes. By marketing I meant the money generation machine
I think you've hit on the real stumbling block here. If Tolle were a penniless monk would his teachings be more acceptable? Is it possible for a man to be rich AND enlightened?
@poptart said:
Is it possible for a man to be rich AND enlightened?
Kia Ora,
I guess it would depend on whether he was 'attached' to his wealth or not ....
Metta Shoshin . ..
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Hamsaka said:
Ah, yes. By marketing I meant the money generation machine, the 'product' bought and sold. Thanks, that's an important distinction.
"Marketing" is just spreading the word, getting the 'product' out there and known by as many as possible. I can't think of what word or term to use in place of 'marketing' in my post would fit more with what I'm thinking :buck: .
>
I wonder how the Buddha would do it today. We already know that those purporting to be a 'new Buddha' are met with doubt, scepticism and scrutiny, and even on occasion ridicule and derision....
it appears to be much more of a western mentality to violently deny the possibility. In Buddhist tradition, it is seen and understood as something that is entirely possible and many Lama have done this in the past. Is it possible that out denial of such claims and inability to accept the possibility comes as a result of western culture being heavily disconnected from spiritual understandings of ourselves? For me, it seems highly plausible that a lack of self-understanding in western culture creates the inability to look at these claims seriously. Instead of seeing something that is potentially very exciting for humanity, it is viewed as a silly hoax so we can go on with our lives.
>
Eckhart Tolle is a product of his own success.... maybe he is the main component of a money-making machine, but what would you suggest he do? You don't know how precisely he channels those profits.... But at least people know who he is, and are listening... He's in a lose-lose situation... If he were to behave more like this 'Buddha-Boy, the West - of which he is a native inhabitant - would in all likelihood denounce him as a charlatan. Doing it the way he does, he is dismissed as a profiteering, money-making new-age merchant.
The bottom line is as it has always been. Does it make sense? Is Does it resound? Does it work? Do his words seem to be steering the reader towards something deep and honest, or contrived and artificial ('Law of attraction', 'The secret'.....)? What does it mean, TO YOU?
@Jeffrey said:
We need some words like TRUTH or NOW that point to something that cannot be pinned down.
Please, we don't need any more of those.....and that's the Truth with a capital T
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2014
I chock Tolles use of capitals for key words up to harmless personal affectation. I do the same thing sometimes.
I think he's telling it as he sees it (I do think he sees it) and is trying to be the best finger pointing at the moon as he can be. As for making money off of spreading the word, I would hope he puts it to good use. However, Buddha collected alms, didn't he?
@poptart said:
Quibbling about gurus and Buddhas is a bit like arguing whether to use an ordinance survey map or satnav. As long as you reach your destination, it doesn't matter.
@Cinorjer said:
What's the difference between a Guru and a Buddha?
The Dharma is a roadmap that seeks to include every part of your life. Just when you think that you've reached some destination, you discover it's only peeled back another layer of onion and now the real work begins.
The difference between a Guru and a Buddha?
A good Buddha helps peel back the layers in your onion.
A bad Guru peels you off your money and your credulity.
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@poptart said:
I think you've hit on the real stumbling block here. If Tolle were a penniless monk would his teachings be more acceptable? Is it possible for a man to be rich AND enlightened?
That isn't the 'question' I'm trying to ask, anyway. Of course a person can be rich as well as enlightened. A person can be purple with yellow dots as well as enlightened. Money (the mere presence of it) is neutral.
The Buddha was filthy rich when he left to seek his Awakening, and likely could have made a good case for himself to ask for and receive family riches.
But asking the question YOU just asked gets me closer to the actual concern or question I have. I keep thinking of Tolle TV, $99 US dollars a year for a subscription, with free trial. Perhaps it is just the association with so many other money suck holes. Popular movies hit the scene, and the market is flooded with action figures, clothing, coffee mugs -- money spinners. Maybe that's what I'm trying to get at. Money spinning.
There's nothing 'wrong' spiritually speaking to have a product and sell it so you can support your family and continue your business.
So what IS wrong with Tolle's 'business', at least in my mind? I'm beginning to think I don't know what's bothering me about it, or at least, what's bothering me is silly.
A penniless monk would on the surface turn my head before a glamorous Oprah-recommended new age guru would. But why?
If I were to become very wealthy, it would not be important to me to save and build that wealth into greater and greater and greater wealth, like the Koch brothers, for instance. I wouldn't squander it, but I would be compelled by my ethics to spread it around. Money for the sake of money has never meant that much to me, I just don't get it perhaps.
Maybe the 'cost' of Tolle's TV installments and retreats or speaking tours provide a kind of natural limit to the demand placed on him. In modern US culture, a great deal of money is paid to name brands, while in reality is just a stupid T shirt worth two dollars and change.
I do think there is a level of ethical behavior that would support spreading wealth rather than hoarding it. I can't imagine Tolle hoarding wealth, not at all. But I can imagine his marketers doing it. His long term partner Kim Eng is a marketing professional. Go figure.
But asking the question YOU just asked gets me closer to the actual concern or question I have. I keep thinking of Tolle TV, $99 US dollars a year for a subscription, with free trial. Perhaps it is just the association with so many other money suck holes. Popular movies hit the scene, and the market is flooded with action figures, clothing, coffee mugs -- money spinners. Maybe that's what I'm trying to get at. Money spinning.
I think western society has an ambivalent relationship with money. The puritan within us detests "filthy lucre" as the root of all evil. Yet everything we need and want comes with a price tag, and we measure our fellow men by the salary they can achieve, the size of their car or house etc. An upshot of this materialism is people often don't value that which is free.
I knew someone years ago who was trying to break into the fashion business. She and her sister designed and made couture clothes, but they were struggling to make a go of it. They sought the advice of a business professional. "Should we drop our prices," they asked, "until we get a foothold?" "Absolutely not," the business advisor said. "You should increase your prices, and by a long way. That's the only way to make it clear what a quality product you are selling."
I don't know any more than you whether Tolle is a Buddha, a guru or a very savvy shyster. How does anyone ever know what is in another person's heart. I'm sure there were people around all those centuries ago calling Gautama a fraud, and Jesus had no shortage of detractors. But as Jesus said, "By their fruits, shall ye know them." The real measure of Tolle is not the price of his TV subscription but whether he helps you realise your true nature.
The real measure of Tolle is not the price of his TV subscription but whether he helps you realise your true nature.
Exactly so.
Do we want a perfect, free, cosmic teacher or do we want what is required? If we want the perfect flawless teacher we are going to have to become the perfect flawless student.
I am still awaiting the perfect cushion . . .
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HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
All good points It's to a greater or lesser degree MY issue with money. I see that now.
@Poptart your story about your sister's clothing line underscores something I've thought of, people will pay $60 for a T shirt with a certain logo on it and will then actually get ooohs and aahhhhhs while wearing it.
I just know what I would do if I had more money that was necessary for my personal needs. It is my ethic, but is it THE ethic? Or does it even matter?
Tolle is no shyster, and he is certainly no Buddha. But he did awaken. It is comforting to me that a funny little man like him can wake up, to whatever degree, because then so can I. What I 'awaken' to or as is something I have a birthright to.
I was thinking the exact same thing and then I realized that what it really presented to me over aesthetic beauty was order. That it most likely applied to a Sangha who meditated with their eyes closed or primarily recited sutras there.
One of the more interesting places that I used to meditate in was a hovel in the downtown of Vancouver near an intersection that was call ground zero for drug and alcohol abuse.
Our public sits were often joined by those looking just for a chair to sit in rather than on the sidewalk outside. They would silently slid in without much disturbance and leave when they were ready to return to the fray outside.
I wonder a bit about how comfortable (or not )those two congregations might be in each others places?
I wonder a bit about how comfortable (or not )those two congregations might be in each others places?
Exactly so.
We cushion ourselves by environment, placement and lack of distraction. http://www.pinterest.com/RockingRealtor/meditation-space
When the outer represational no longer sways our inner space we are beginning to find independence from our location . . . wherever that Cushion puts us . . .
It wasn't clear it was a joke. You said a guru strips you of your cash and didn't indicate in any way shape or form that it was a joke. Sorry, I love you dharmamom, but I didn't like what you said. Tibetan Buddhism always has a guru so slamming gurus is sectarianism. It would be like ranting against koans. As far as I know no cats have been cut in half via 'guruism'.
@Jeffrey, I've been in Tibetan Buddhism all my life, so it won't be me who will say a word against Tibetan Buddhism.
Except that both my teachers, one of them Gelug and the other one Dzogchen, prefer to address themselves as "teachers" rather than "gurus."
It's like over time, "Guru" has acquired a suspiciously negative connotation, especially here in the West.
Edit: Forgot to add that I love you too, @Jeffrey. And honestly, if you read the whole context, you can't fail to see it's a joke...
Comments
I call it "Guru-Speak" and it shows how the Enlightened teachers of the world share a tradition that arose from India mystics. I've also heard it described as "Transformation Talk". For instance, every Guru talks about "living in the present" or "living in the Now" or some such. It equates to the Zen talk about "Mindfulness". Then there is "we are one" in various permutations, equating to the Buddhist non-duality. Then we also have "life is illusion" and some sort of statement about how we have to let go of our preconceptions about who we are and what we are, etc.
I suppose using the word Truth might be an attempt to describe what is beyond the illusion. I'd call it "just like this" which is pointing to the reality of the present moment. The one fairly unique metaphor I've read from Tolle so far is his invention of the "Pain Body". Buddhists have their own jargon, but I'm not sure we have something to compare to that strange teaching.
Thing is, if someone is seeking for a way of putting meaning into their lives, they could do much worse than follow Tolle's teachings. I always read my posts on someone like him and think I'm being too critical. He's not asking you to join a cult, give him your bank account, or move to some collective farm and sing his praises every morning. Buy a book from him and pay a few dollars for a webpage is a small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.
I think that Tolle's experience might be of a particular type..He himself describes his teachings as ' natural mysticism '. A while back there was a study of a particular phenomenon, whereby people, sometimes after spiritual striving and effort, sometimes apparently spontaneously, have an experience of ' oneness' and 'timelessness '.
The question arises whether this experience is the same as the goal of Buddhism.
I think there is reason to suppose that it isn't. Although at some point Buddhist meditation may give rise to similar phenomena.
In a real sense although we all may have the potential to realise the goal of Buddhism, the goal is not ' natural '.
No one not exposed to Buddhist teaching is going to come up anything approaching D.O...no one ever has.
When Taoism and Vedanta are compared to Dhamma, they can been shown to incorporate lofty states..but they are ignorant of D.O.
The truth of Dependent Origination does not occur as a result of any ' natural' process.
It is specific to Buddhism and to Buddhist practices. It is the result of a particular Awakening.
And the Buddha himself said that there is only one way to that Awakening..he called his Dhamma the " Ekayana " The One Way.
This of course does not sit well with our modern multicultural ethos.
@SpinyNorman said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "mysterious and pseudo-mystical way". When I read TPON it seemed to me that Tolle was attempting to express insights he had acquired through his own experience, enlightenment, whatever. He uses normal everyday words precisely to avoid the kind of jargon that can alienate people. But it's no mean feat to explain something so beyond most people's normal everyday experience in a way they can understand.
The problem with language is when we move outside of the common ground of experience we either have to make up new words for things, or delve into a hefty lexicon of tired religious cliches. Tolle deliberately avoids using words like mindfulness and God because these words carry a lot of baggage and confusion will likely arise.
The question arises whether this experience is the same as the goal of Buddhism.
It is different and well known to sportsmen and others
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
Actually, a psychologist would probably label what happened to Tolle as an example of "Metanonia", a fundamental break and change in a person's basic ego consciousness resulting in a long term and stable new way of dealing with life. Just because we stick a label on something, though, doesn't mean we actually understand it.
I think you may mean ' metanoia '.
Is metanoia a result of Buddhist meditation ? Interesting. There is a term 'pavritti ' which means ' a turning about in consciousness ' But it is seen as a necessary precursor to samadhi , rather than a result.
We need some words like TRUTH or NOW that point to something that cannot be pinned down.
There isn't anything 'outside' the Dharma that would qualify for Dharma plus, if it is teachings, encouragement, technique or whatever that points one toward Awakening.
I wouldn't know how to differentiate between what is ONLY the Dharma, unless to make sure every book is written by a person identifying as Buddhist and every teacher has a lineage that goes back XXX number of teachers' teachers.
It's pretty obvious to me the Dharma is not a proprietary to Buddhists. I am open for suggestion and proof that I am missing an important point, or just plain wrong.
I have the same attitude toward cutesy capitalization and everything else you said, @SpinyNorman.
"The Power of Now" is such a lame title for a book that after I downloaded it and listened to 20 minutes of it (while trying to figure out what the power of now was) I switched audiobooks and didn't try again until last month.
"Now" as I understand it (my unpacking of Tolle) is interchangeable with the commonly used word "Presence", which I hear and read a lot from western Buddhist teachers.
Who, in turn, use the word "presence" to mean something they unpacked from their own traditional Buddhist teacher.
"Now" is a state of being where attachment and self are extinguished. In his book A New Earth, Tolle goes on at great length about 'anatta', a word he never uses, but explains using his own habitual phrases. Tolle does not SAY "here's the teaching about not self" but he sure does explain it well and apply it to examples of dippy human behavior at least as well as a western Buddhist teacher (my opinion, of course)
Here's one for ya that Tolle uses a lot: "Unconscious" He pretty much deems every act of human stupidity, ignorance and evil as "unconscious". I'm still working on figuring that out. I sort of intuitively 'get' where he's going because how he fleshes out his concepts is thorough, but it hasn't come clear for me yet.
I appreciate all the responses, ALL of them.
People have to make a living and if they can realise that people are on a treadmill, and people wish to jump a few steps because they see there is a goal, and are willing to pay forwhat they will get anyway - then more fool them.
What is a voyage of discovery anyway?
@AldrisTorvalds: your post sounds and 'feels' like my experience with Tolle and even other non-Buddhist teachers/mystics/whatevers.
Tolle does go on to exhaustive lengths describing and giving examples, including active application, for Now, Stillness, Being.
I'd love to hear him give his thoughts about the Four Noble Truths in more depth than he does. He does mention them, and goes on to explain 'dukkha', and though I haven't heard him say the words "eightfold path" he spends time describing right speech, right mindfulness, right 'work', etc -- just not in a condensed concept as did the Buddha.
He often uses Sufi teachings and stories, and Zen stories. How he 'interprets' Christ's teachings from the Christian bible are a whole 'nother issue, though. He has to work very hard with some of them
Here for you!
http://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/default/files/preview/Four Noble Truths Book Preview.pdf
I am so pleased that with the internet - freedom is freer
@ Hamsaka
It's too easy (and probably wrong in some fundamental way) to deny the veracity of one person's awakening versus your preferred method. I'd like to ponder this with an open mind. Anybody else up for it?
I leave the veracity of anyones awakening to be acertained by the fruit that it produces.
Does it ...cease from evil, do only good & purify the mind-heart?
Does it move others towards suffering's cessation?
Does it demonstrate compassion, tenderness, love, empathy, sympathy, benevolence and wisdom?
The fruit sorts out the real worth of any understanding.
Can't argue with that, unless I am just trying to be 'right' about my preferred beliefs being superior in quality to someone else's.
A mind can be too open and the result is brains falling out on the floor; but the fruits are easy for anyone to recognize, even the least educated or disciplined mind can grasp if teachings or behavior results in purification, suffering's cessation, benevolence, wisdom and love.
Of course if you don't WANT to acknowledge the fruits . . . or if you want to acknowledge fruits that aren't there . . . oh how easily we delude ourselves.
I am extremely guilty of poking my nose up in the air at 'new age' stuff, and a great deal of it is barely worth a sniff
. Not because it doesn't INTEND to promote 'good' but because it does so in service of aggrandizing the 'self' (or ego as Tolle goes on about). The 'fruits' are people walking around with airs of superiority, how much more 'spiritual' they are than the unwashed masses, having been told they were Ramses II a few incarnations ago.
Even Buddhism (gasp!) is harnessed in service to the ego, especially in disguise of long boring 'debates' or people nit picking semantics in transparent effort to be 'right'. There is no need to defend the Dharma, even from idiots.
@ Hamsaka
Tolle might be making it up as he goes along because I discovered that the
Ego is actually only shore leave for the meditatively challenged?
The real truth is that
our minds are actually data input pirates with run away hoarding issues. The only real practice is getting your pirate to share equal captaincy with the other sight, sound, smell, taste and feeling sailors on board that he formally lorded it over.
With my easy step by step instructions you too can to coax this rogue into a more appropriate book keeping position and finally bring some equanimity to the whole ship.
Feeling nautically queasy in stormy seas?
Act now and you too can reserve your own luxury berth to the other shore.
One simple PM of your credit card info and you'll wonder why any other rickety raft building instructions ever seemed plausible to anyone.
@How, I will take YOUR word for it
A data input pirate with runaway hoarding issues? That is brilliant. Beyond brilliant, probably.
The outstanding, glaring issue I have with Tolle is this fruit; he has not rejected his own marketing plan. I hope someday he does. That he has not rejected this 'temptation' of our day and age -- which I assume an actual awakened being would have done -- parses him out, if nothing else does.
Then again, I 'learn' from certain fiction writers and my geese. That doesn't mean I confuse them with arhants.
I'm not sure i get your point: The Buddha never rejected his marketing plan either, but continued to talk of the Dhamma to his dying words.....(not suggesting Tolle and the Buddha are comparable in the enlightened sense of the word....)
Expand?
Ah, yes. By marketing I meant the money generation machine, the 'product' bought and sold. Thanks, that's an important distinction.
"Marketing" is just spreading the word, getting the 'product' out there and known by as many as possible. I can't think of what word or term to use in place of 'marketing' in my post would fit more with what I'm thinking :buck: .
by the time of Buddha's awakening He had abandoned the following defilement during his six years of acetic life
the fermentations to be abandoned by restraining,
the fermentations to be abandoned by using,
the fermentations to be abandoned by tolerating,
the fermentations to be abandoned by avoiding,
the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying,
the fermentations to be abandoned by developing,
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html (sabbasava sutta)
others have to continue their practice even after the First awakening to the Truth if they had not practiced to abandon fermentation by restraining, using, tolerating, avoiding, destroying and developing
The truth about the ego is that it is actually "you" so whatever you think your ego is doing wrong etc is actually you doing it....& whatever you think your ego is, is actually the real you at this moment in time....That's every thought emotion & feeling, you create them all yourselves....Every negative thought is actually spoken by yourself, & all those unwanted emotions & feelings are as well....So the ego never makes you do think or say anything bad, people do it will fully because they haven't yet learn't why they shouldn't be doing it, & they don't realise they can have full control of their mind emotions & feelings....It's not some imaginary thought bubbles floating around, that makes anyone receive their unwanted thoughts....It's because their actually thinking them at the time, because they haven't learn't how to do or be without thinking....It is actually possible to picture a task without thinking, & then do that task, & most people are a long way from being able to do that....There is a massive flaw in Eckharts work because although his teachings do work & they work really well, they will in my opinion leave someone in an emotional neutral zone which is very very difficult to get out from....A total lose of all identification is what will happen to a person who does his training, but if the person is aware that that will logically happen after our identification with our ego mind has been eliminated they should eventually get through that "real" zone....Think about it like this we are here to build real human beings, & we're all in the middle of the human race....
@SpinyNorman , I like what the power of now does for so many people. It helps people see straight away that what you believe is true may not be the case. Someone who may not have ever heard or cares about dharma, may still have read the power of now. This is good.
My opinion is that Tolle didn't have the same awakening as many others like the Buddha. Purely because he refers to himself as the witnesser of events.
But this is still a huge profound realisation for anybody.
I think you've hit on the real stumbling block here. If Tolle were a penniless monk would his teachings be more acceptable? Is it possible for a man to be rich AND enlightened?
Kia Ora,
I guess it would depend on whether he was 'attached' to his wealth or not ....
Metta Shoshin .
..
>
I wonder how the Buddha would do it today. We already know that those purporting to be a 'new Buddha' are met with doubt, scepticism and scrutiny, and even on occasion ridicule and derision....
>
Eckhart Tolle is a product of his own success.... maybe he is the main component of a money-making machine, but what would you suggest he do? You don't know how precisely he channels those profits.... But at least people know who he is, and are listening... He's in a lose-lose situation... If he were to behave more like this 'Buddha-Boy, the West - of which he is a native inhabitant - would in all likelihood denounce him as a charlatan. Doing it the way he does, he is dismissed as a profiteering, money-making new-age merchant.
The bottom line is as it has always been. Does it make sense? Is Does it resound? Does it work? Do his words seem to be steering the reader towards something deep and honest, or contrived and artificial ('Law of attraction', 'The secret'.....)? What does it mean, TO YOU?
Please, we don't need any more of those.....and that's the Truth with a capital T
I chock Tolles use of capitals for key words up to harmless personal affectation. I do the same thing sometimes.
I think he's telling it as he sees it (I do think he sees it) and is trying to be the best finger pointing at the moon as he can be. As for making money off of spreading the word, I would hope he puts it to good use. However, Buddha collected alms, didn't he?
Nobody thinks about 2500 years of inflation, lol.
The difference between a Guru and a Buddha?
A good Buddha helps peel back the layers in your onion.
A bad Guru peels you off your money and your credulity.
That is sectarianism.
That isn't the 'question' I'm trying to ask, anyway. Of course a person can be rich as well as enlightened. A person can be purple with yellow dots as well as enlightened. Money (the mere presence of it) is neutral.
The Buddha was filthy rich when he left to seek his Awakening, and likely could have made a good case for himself to ask for and receive family riches.
But asking the question YOU just asked gets me closer to the actual concern or question I have. I keep thinking of Tolle TV, $99 US dollars a year for a subscription, with free trial. Perhaps it is just the association with so many other money suck holes. Popular movies hit the scene, and the market is flooded with action figures, clothing, coffee mugs -- money spinners. Maybe that's what I'm trying to get at. Money spinning.
There's nothing 'wrong' spiritually speaking to have a product and sell it so you can support your family and continue your business.
So what IS wrong with Tolle's 'business', at least in my mind? I'm beginning to think I don't know what's bothering me about it, or at least, what's bothering me is silly.
A penniless monk would on the surface turn my head before a glamorous Oprah-recommended new age guru would. But why?
If I were to become very wealthy, it would not be important to me to save and build that wealth into greater and greater and greater wealth, like the Koch brothers, for instance. I wouldn't squander it, but I would be compelled by my ethics to spread it around. Money for the sake of money has never meant that much to me, I just don't get it perhaps.
Maybe the 'cost' of Tolle's TV installments and retreats or speaking tours provide a kind of natural limit to the demand placed on him. In modern US culture, a great deal of money is paid to name brands, while in reality is just a stupid T shirt worth two dollars and change.
I do think there is a level of ethical behavior that would support spreading wealth rather than hoarding it. I can't imagine Tolle hoarding wealth, not at all. But I can imagine his marketers doing it. His long term partner Kim Eng is a marketing professional. Go figure.
@Hamsaka said:
I think western society has an ambivalent relationship with money. The puritan within us detests "filthy lucre" as the root of all evil. Yet everything we need and want comes with a price tag, and we measure our fellow men by the salary they can achieve, the size of their car or house etc. An upshot of this materialism is people often don't value that which is free.
I knew someone years ago who was trying to break into the fashion business. She and her sister designed and made couture clothes, but they were struggling to make a go of it. They sought the advice of a business professional. "Should we drop our prices," they asked, "until we get a foothold?" "Absolutely not," the business advisor said. "You should increase your prices, and by a long way. That's the only way to make it clear what a quality product you are selling."
I don't know any more than you whether Tolle is a Buddha, a guru or a very savvy shyster. How does anyone ever know what is in another person's heart. I'm sure there were people around all those centuries ago calling Gautama a fraud, and Jesus had no shortage of detractors. But as Jesus said, "By their fruits, shall ye know them." The real measure of Tolle is not the price of his TV subscription but whether he helps you realise your true nature.
Exactly so.
Do we want a perfect, free, cosmic teacher or do we want what is required? If we want the perfect flawless teacher we are going to have to become the perfect flawless student.
I am still awaiting the perfect cushion . . .
All good points
It's to a greater or lesser degree MY issue with money. I see that now.
@Poptart your story about your sister's clothing line underscores something I've thought of, people will pay $60 for a T shirt with a certain logo on it and will then actually get ooohs and aahhhhhs while wearing it.
I just know what I would do if I had more money that was necessary for my personal needs. It is my ethic, but is it THE ethic? Or does it even matter?
Tolle is no shyster, and he is certainly no Buddha. But he did awaken. It is comforting to me that a funny little man like him can wake up, to whatever degree, because then so can I. What I 'awaken' to or as is something I have a birthright to.
@lobster That is the most comfortable looking meditation room I've ever seen.
I was thinking the exact same thing and then I realized that what it really presented to me over aesthetic beauty was order. That it most likely applied to a Sangha who meditated with their eyes closed or primarily recited sutras there.
Whats the scoop @lobster ?
One of the more interesting places that I used to meditate in was a hovel in the downtown of Vancouver near an intersection that was call ground zero for drug and alcohol abuse.
Our public sits were often joined by those looking just for a chair to sit in rather than on the sidewalk outside. They would silently slid in without much disturbance and leave when they were ready to return to the fray outside.
I wonder a bit about how comfortable (or not )those two congregations might be in each others places?
No, @Jeffrey, it's not sectarianism. It was simply a joke.
I underline bad Gurus, not all Gurus in general.
And the most beautiful, indeed...!
Exactly so.
We cushion ourselves by environment, placement and lack of distraction.
http://www.pinterest.com/RockingRealtor/meditation-space
When the outer represational no longer sways our inner space we are beginning to find independence from our location . . . wherever that Cushion puts us . . .
It wasn't clear it was a joke. You said a guru strips you of your cash and didn't indicate in any way shape or form that it was a joke. Sorry, I love you dharmamom, but I didn't like what you said. Tibetan Buddhism always has a guru so slamming gurus is sectarianism. It would be like ranting against koans. As far as I know no cats have been cut in half via 'guruism'.
@Jeffrey, I've been in Tibetan Buddhism all my life, so it won't be me who will say a word against Tibetan Buddhism.
Except that both my teachers, one of them Gelug and the other one Dzogchen, prefer to address themselves as "teachers" rather than "gurus."
It's like over time, "Guru" has acquired a suspiciously negative connotation, especially here in the West.
Edit: Forgot to add that I love you too, @Jeffrey. And honestly, if you read the whole context, you can't fail to see it's a joke...