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Form in Five aggregates
upekka
Veteran
in Philosophy
we (forgive me if you should not be included within we) all take it for granted that we know what is meant by 'form' in Buddha's Teaching
could you explain what do you take as 'form'
before answer, take few moments to think over it, please
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Comments
The physical material, make-up, and appearance of objects and things...from my understanding.
It is the aspects of 'the world' that are considered material.
So my computer and my mouse and my body have form. The sky and a clock has form. The sound waves of music are form nature of sound. My mind that hears and interprets/labels the music is not form.
Nothing to think about.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/whatistheself/a/Sunyata-Or-Emptiness.htm
. . . or to put it another way, an answer without a question.
Form is that which is nourished by food, feels heat/cold/itch/pain ie. the physical body.
I believe that form (ruupa) is not quite like "matter" in the Western scientific way, as much as it's referring to anything having some kind of materiality which is also able to be perceived. In that sense, I believe, even intangible or even abstract things such as some generic "fruit" or such things as human rights and laws would be included.
Kia Ora,
Anything that 'matters'
Metta Shoshin
"In the Pali literature, the mahabhuta ("great elements") or catudhatu ("four elements") are earth, water, fire and air. In early Buddhism, the four elements are a basis for understanding suffering and for liberating oneself from suffering. The earliest Buddhist texts explain that the four primary material elements are the sensory qualities solidity, fluidity, temperature, and mobility; their characterization as earth, water, fire, and air, respectively, is declared an abstraction—instead of concentrating on the fact of material existence, one observes how a physical thing is sensed, felt, perceived.[8] The Buddha's teaching regarding the four elements is to be understood as the base of all observation of real sensations rather than as a philosophy. The four properties are cohesion (water), solidity or inertia (earth), expansion or vibration (air) and heat or energy content (fire). He promulgated a categorization of mind and matter as composed of eight types of "kalapas" of which the four elements are primary and a secondary group of four are color, smell, taste, and nutriment which are derivative from the four primaries." (Wiki)
"You just supposed to rest in the experience of whatever element you are encountering, not get involved in "is it limpid, wet, etc." Anyway, when you look at your floor, it is not so hard to understand it is an manifestation of earth. Anyway, don't overthink things." (Loppon Malcolm)
"first empty it...there is no object...then the intensity of luminosity as the hardness, softness, wetness..." (Thusness)
:buck: seems about right to me. It is the stuff (a technical term) both mental and physical that we form around. My body, my problems, my experience, my world, my tea cup.
As we loosen the grip of form, in essence see it as empty, our suffering around what matters, becomes loosened.
N.B. Don't stay for the musical finale, not sure what it is . . .
Kia Ora,
Thanks for the youtube clip...
As a 'matter' of fact I liked the chanting at the end --:D ::
Metta Shoshin
It usually translates Rupam.
Rupam is specific. Its Sanskrit/Pali meaning is ' that which occupies space ' Or that which resists occupation by another rupam '
So, thoughts are not Rupam, Feelings are not Rupam..
Your body is Rupam. Your PC is Rupam...
Incidentally A Buddha image or statue is more properly called a Buddharupa...
Rupam is one of the five Skandhas.
I will leave you to google the others.
I can think of a few people whose thoughts - or lines of thinking - are definitely "Rupam".. Fixated, springs to mind...
Their thoughts might be like Rupam @federica, but they are still Samjna (Sanskrit ) or Sanna ..( Pali )
I have corrected the bolding three times...it won't have it.
There must be no spaces between the bolded words and their asterisks, but a clear space between the asterisks.and words or punctuation preceding or following them...
I learnt the hard way....I was taught By @Linc ... ~shudder~
I thoughts that's what I did..I'll try again..
Traditionally it's represented by the four great elements - earth, wind, fire and water.
I think "materiality" is a reasonable translation of rupa.
>
You left a space after a word, but before the two final asterisks, samjna in one case, and when you typed "..(Pali)" you left no space between the asterisks and the '..'
.
Kia Ora,
I could be wrong but I was under the impression (I'm feeling a bit under the impression at the moment) ...--:D __
Physical or mental...when things take shape they 'form' hence "Anything that matters "
!) That which occupies space....2) A subject or situation under consideration.
Metta Shoshin:)
I suggest that you look at Rupam in the context of the Skandhas..
Your "anything that matters " may have resonance for you. But I do not see anything resembling it in the Buddhas teaching
thanks friends for contribution
i learned a lot from them
according to Buddha's Teaching sound, taste, smell, tactile are form (rupa) too
rupa-rupa
saddha-rupa
gandha-rupa
rasa-rupa
spassa-rupa
what do you think about them?
how do you explain them as form?
Form cannot be described without the contrast of emptiness, nothing, or whatever you want to call the thing that is no thing.
In the non-dual state, where the mind rests free of any particular thought, they are observed as one and the same, at least in my field of awareness, feel free to challenge that, as I may be completely wrong.
Regardless of which skandha is examined, there must be a contrast otherwise how can discrimination occur. You can't contrast black with black or ding with ding, you need white and dong, right or wrong? (... \ lol / ...).
Interesting. Perhaps there are two types of form? Physical form and mental form? Or maybe rupa is similar to the word "thing" that we often use today. Just guessing.
I'd be interested in the source for that. MN137 describes the 6 external sense-media, which could be said to arise in dependence on form.
"'The six external sense-media should be known': thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? The form-medium, the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile-sensation-medium, the idea-medium. 'The six external sense-media should be known': "
Diga nikaya- maha satipattana sutta - dhammanupassanawa - satta pabba -dukka samudaya arya satya
In the upadanakkhandhas, visible objects... In the upadanakkhandhas, sounds... In the upadanakkhandhas, odors... In the upadanakkhandhas, tastes... In the upadanakkhandhas, tactual objects... In the upadanakkhandhas, mind-objects have the characteristic of being delightful and pleasurable. When this Craving arises, it arises there; when it establishes itself, it establishes itself there
An attitude has the characteristics of ruupam, in that an attitude resists occupying the same 'space' as an attitude with a perceived contradictory nature.
'Form' as that which can be perceived by the six senses is a helpful way to describe form, especially for this westerner who was brought up only giving credit to five senses
That sixth sense (not the movie, thank you) sure was hard for me to ignore.
Whatever can be 'established' has form. Whatever arises from conditions has a form.
There is some deep wisdom about duality in modern quantum physics that would explain why attitudes of a contradictory nature cannot occupy the same space and remain with intact form.
"Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'
Pañcavaggi Sutta: Five Brethren/Aggregates
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.than.html
Form = rupam. In this context it clearly refers to the physical body.
Rūpaṃ bhikkhave, anattā, rūpañca hidaṃ bhikkhave, attā abhavissa nayidaṃ rūpaṃ ābādhāya saṃvatteyya, labbhetha ca rūpe evaṃ me rūpaṃ hotu, evaṃ me rūpaṃ mā ahosī'ti. Yasmā ca kho bhikkhave, rūpaṃ anattā, tasmā rūpaṃ ābādhāya saṃvattati. Na ca labbhati rūpe "evaṃ me rūpaṃ hotu, evaṃ me rūpaṃ mā ahosī"ti.
I'd say form means anything that isn't mental. That's why the Buddha said there are only two things, mind and form. Easy enough? Maybe. People are attached to form, but can also become attached to the formless; attachment to both must be transcended.
Something that might be useful;
" Its important to remember that that the kandhas ( skandhas ) are not separate little domains..they are active and interactive. They define each other. They are dynamic.
We talk about them as separate for convenience, In reality they are an organic whole that comes together for a time then ends..."
Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
after the past few days (may be weeks or months) of meditation i came to (have the) following understanding today, early in the morning:
in the four foundation of mindfulness
I. THE CONTEMPLATION OF THE BODY
the subtle body is the breath and if there is mindfulness of the body that means mindful of the form aggregate
II. THE CONTEMPLATION OF FEELING
to get a feeling it is necessary to have an internal form (ear etc.) , an external form (sound etc.) and a consciousness with previous skillful volition, unskillful volition or neither-skillful-nor-unskillful volition
if there is previous skillful volition there is pleasure, if there is previous unskillful volition there is displeasure and if there is previous neither-nor-skillful/unskillful volition there is neither-pleasure-nor-displeasure
this means mindful of the feeling aggregate
III. THE CONTEMPLATION OF CONSCIOUSNESS
observing the mind it can be seen there could be greed, hate, delusion or loving-kindness, compassion, wisdom
when the consciousness arise during the contact (internal sense base and external sense base),
if there is greed or hate or delusion then clinging to form and feeling happens and create new volitional activities (through mind, word or body)
but if there is only loving-kindness or compassion or wisdom there is no clinging so no new volitional activities
this means mindful of the consciousness aggregate
IV. THE CONTEMPLATION OF MENTAL OBJECTS
only unskillful objects( five-nievaranas, dukka, dependent origination) and skillful activities (eight-fold path, seven factors of enlightenment) are there
this means mindful of the volitional activity aggregate
when one comes to Noble Right View/ Stream Entry/ Stream winner/ sotapanna/ sovan one clearly knows perception is empty
practicing Four Foundation of Mindfulness means practicing to be mindful of five aggregates where one can avoid clinging to five aggregate which is the cause of suffering (dependent origination)
comments appreciate
(here talking about Buddha' Teaching, not theravada, mahayana, tantrayana etc.)
@upekka
Just to comment on feelings contemplation in terms of the 4NT.
How are feelings to be viewed?
Feelings(pleasant, painful and neutral) are to be viewed as just feelings that arise due to causes and conditions. Feelings remain as just feelings, as not I, mine or myself.
With metta
thanks @pegembara,
i really like the following part