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Rebirth....No doubt many of you have been down this path before! (pun intended)
@DhammaDragon That's very interesting, thanks for posting that. It lends support to those scholars who say that rebirth was a later influence from Hinduism, and that the Buddha never taught rebirth. Now I see what the basis of that argument is.
Now, personally, I never believed in rebirth until I had an experience where past life memories started bubbling up. And even then, I couldn't believe it, I went into denial. But it was later confirmed by someone else. So whether or not the Buddha taught rebirth doesn't matter to me, because I go by my own experience. And such a belief (or "knowing") isn't incompatible with Buddhism.
The Buddha appears to have left people to their own personal beliefs, as long as they didn't contradict his teachings. So it's not like he said one isn't allowed to believe in rebirth. Unless such belief fosters attachment, in some way. We're free to wing it, to a certain extent, around the edges of Buddhism, in terms of choosing to believe in a creator deity, or rebirth, or the divine nature of this or that prophet, as long as we practice the principles the Buddha taught.
But on the other hand, Western Zen in particular took the concept of Emptiness and ran with it, and Emptiness and Reincarnation never did mix well. The question, "What is being reincarnated?" causes us to cut through all those thoughts about living someone else's life in the past, and that leads to looking at the Past Life Karma thing, and so on. So while as far as the Noble Truths are concerned, it doesn't matter, still we can't get away from the question.
What is being reincarnated, according to Pali sources, are the karmic seeds that were created in past lifetimes, not someone's personality. Tibetans go a step further, and say it's "consciousness" ("the very, very subtle mind"--the DL) that gets reborn. However, knowing the answer to the question, "What is being reincarnated" doesn't address the issue of whether or not the Buddha actually taught that, i.e. whether or not that was one of his teachings, or whether it found its way into the sutras later.
You haz no self according to dharma and hopefully your emerging practice realization. This self thing you don't have returns after the conditions, through the process of child development and consciousness emergence, rots away back to emptiness?
I think not.
You follow a path were the only individuals who do not rebirth are Buddhas. Maybe you will be less confused in tomorrow's incarnation . . .
. . . and now back to the recycling of belief, ideas and things to cling to . . .
@vinlyn said:
A good question, robot. While I haven't made my mind up in re the overall topic, isn't a desire for rebirth nothing more than clinging?
Actually, it is a process that seemingly takes place independently of whether you desire it or not.
It is your clinging / craving that drag you into the maelstrom of rebirths.
@Dakini said:
The Buddha appears to have left people to their own personal beliefs, as long as they didn't contradict his teachings. So it's not like he said one isn't allowed to believe in rebirth. Unless such belief fosters attachment, in some way. We're free to wing it, to a certain extent, around the edges of Buddhism, in terms of choosing to believe in a creator deity, or rebirth, or the divine nature of this or that prophet, as long as we practice the principles the Buddha taught.
"This question is not calculated to profit, it is not concerned with the Dhamma, it does not redound even to the elements of right conduct, nor to detachment, nor to purification from lusts, nor to quietude, nor to tranquillisation of heart, nor to real knowledge, nor to the insight of the higher stages of the Path, nor to Nirvana. Therefore it is that I express no opinion about it."
The fact that the Buddha expressed no opinion about Rebirth -though in many other suttas he makes explicit reference to it- does not contradict anyone's willingness to believe in past lives and rebirths.
Bikkhu Payutto, a highly-respected Theravada monk says: "The Dhamma teachings of Lord Buddha aim at practical results; he wants everyone to take charge of life in this world starting from the present moment on, to know the principle of the Middle Way, and to understand how to tread the Middle Path. All of these things can be applied to life. If there is any speculation regarding a life after this one, then seriously set your mind on making this life the way you want your next life to be. Build your confidence to the point that you are not worried about the next life at all."
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
@DhammaDragon I think what @vinlyn probably meant isn't that craving or clinging are part of the rebirth process, but that rebirth as a concept is the result of craving and clinging. It's something we want to believe in, because we don't actually see it as suffering -- we see it as escaping death and continuing to be alive/exist, similar to other afterlife notions such as the Christian "heaven".
@AldrisTorvalds, as I understood it, it was rather a pondering whether rebirth wasn't a sort of desire, let's say, for transcendence like you say, and as such, related to clinging.
My idea was that if rebirth indeed exists, the phenomenon simply takes place, beyond your wishful thinking, and it is usually our ignorance and attachments that trigger the process of rebirths...
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
edited August 2014
@vinlyn I think it's more a case of similar methodology than careful reading. Everyone that was replying to your post seemed to be missing the mark... mistaking your meaning because they had already moved past the question of whether rebirth actually takes place. I haven't, and I suspected you hadn't either. There are people who have personal anecdotes about near-death experiences of heaven too, so I have to find fault in personal anecdotes of rebirth or reincarnation being considered reliable evidence (even if they are direct first-hand experiences, they're not different in nature to the claims of people from other religions... that experience different things).
Without reliable evidence, I'm left with only the knowledge that multiple lifetime rebirth is taught and that some people believe it... nothing to go on personally; not a single shred during my lifetime or decade as a Buddhist. That's why I haven't chimed in before this. I'm glad that I was right about your meaning, at least! I'm really not going to argue with anyone about rebirth, as I suspect it would be pointless (like arguing whether Jesus was/is divine with someone that claims to have a personal relationship with him).
I used to worry about this stuff myself until I realized this most valuable fact of all: When I follow the Dharma, I am happy, and when I do not follow the Dharma, I am not happy. One truly happy moment is worth more than any number of past or future lifetimes. Why? Because this moment is real, whereas the rest is either memory or speculation.
"And now I'm doing time for mistakes made by another in another lifetime.." --"Galileo" by the Indigo Girls (don't laugh!)
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2014
AldrisTorvalds said:
vinlyn I think it's more a case of similar methodology than careful reading. Everyone that was replying to your post seemed to be missing the mark... mistaking your meaning because they had already moved past the question of whether rebirth actually takes place. I haven't...
I don't think we have. My point is that if it happens it will happen whether we want it to or not and if it doesn't no amount of wishing will force it. To me, this isn't the issue because whether or not rebirth happens, I won't be there except for fodder for potential.
I don't see it in the same light as the notion of Heaven because to me, rebirth makes logical sense given all we have learned about how things behave.
That certainly doesn't mean it's true or anything and it isn't something I think we should worry about but if I was a murderer I might.
Karmic rebirth could be just another concept made to scare us straight. Act well or you will be a carrot next time around.
To me, 50-50 that there is such a thing as rebirth since we have absolutely no concrete evidence for it.
What is this "logic"? And if it so logical, why does a majority of world disagree with the concept?
And this doubt in my mind is my "logic" for thinking it may be another means of people wanting there to be something beyond.
Before anyone responds, let me say again, I am totally undecided about the concept. Could be. Could be not. It's interesting.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
No sweat, my friend. That's the only reason I like to talk about it as well. I neither believe nor disbelieve but I do find it interesting.
I do think it happens but I don't have any hope hung on that so can't go as far as to say I believe...
I may see rebirth differently as I see rebirth in everything being born. I feel that if rebirth is real that it is a misnomer because it seems more like inter-birth to me (if you see what I mean). I think that if I was anyone before now, I have been and will be everyone eventually. And please know I use the word "I" lightly. I doubt "I" will be there whether it happens or not.
A linear line of incarnations wouldn't seem to apply then.
It seems logical to me because I liken it to the hydro-logical system that water follows except with awareness of being.
For the record, I always value your views and ideas even when we disagree.
@DhammaDragon said:
My idea was that if rebirth indeed exists, the phenomenon simply takes place, beyond your wishful thinking, and it is usually our ignorance and attachments that trigger the process of rebirths...
Maybe wishful thinking is a way of describing craving though?
@vinlyn said:
To me, 50-50 that there is such a thing as rebirth since we have absolutely no concrete evidence for it.
There is no verifiable evidence for it at all, in the same way that there is verifiable evidence for God. For me rebirth is a more plausible idea than God, or at least less implausible.
@SpinyNorman said:
Maybe wishful thinking is a way of describing craving though?
Yepp but what does it matter to identify one craving inducing thing in a billion or more that is all around us and point finger and say lo and behold this is a bad thing?
The truth is that all things lead to craving for the uninstructed mind.
Is it not so? So why lift up this thing on a pedestal?
@SpinyNorman said:
There is no verifiable evidence for it at all, in the same way that there is verifiable evidence for God. For me rebirth is a more plausible idea than God, or at least less implausible.
I'm somewhat the other way, but I agree with your basic assessment.
@SpinyNorman said:
I guess because a lot of westerners are very sceptical about it, so it becomes a big deal.
Then I would say that that big deal is a craving and clinging induced too and a object for craving and clinging. Hmm.
And no I am not going to guess which is the worse.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2014
@federica said:
When push comes to shove - it really doesn't matter. What matters is what we deal with now, how we deal with it, and how Mindful we are of Actions - Mental, Verbal and Physical.
Everything else is speculative, and really, a waste of time trying to discuss, decipher, interpret or consider.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade, honestly.
I'm actually trying to indicate - what is really worth discussing, and how can it help one develop one's practice more positively?
Does this kind of discussion actually do anything to move 'you' forward one single step?
>
Quoted for "See? I told you all this speculation was just more blah-blah....." .
@Victorious, once again you're misquoting me. I didn't say that a majority of people disbelieve in life after death. I said that a majority disbelieve in rebirth ("To me, 50-50 that there is such a thing as rebirth since we have absolutely no concrete evidence for it. What is this "logic"? And if it so logical, why does a majority of world disagree with the concept?).
Perhaps I'm wrong in that assessment, and very willing to concede the point with some evidence. But I would offer that in one American poll, more people said they believed in witches than in reincarnation (I couldn't find any polls on "rebirth" per se). In another poll, 71% of Americans believe in the devil, while only 25% believe in reincarnation. In another poll, 42% believed in ghosts, 36% believed in UFOs, and 24% believed in reincarnation. I didn't find any polls from other countries.
Actually my understanding of rebirth/reincarnation is just as @upekka said one of my strongest motivations to cultivate and get the hell out of dodge as fast as I can...
I think the same goes for many Buddhists that believe in reincarnation.
Which is the greatest... all the waters in the great seas or the blood and tears you have shed through samsara...?
(Freely quoted).
I really do not want to play that game anymore.
/Victor
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
While we are preoccupied, and worry that we do not want to play this game any more, that's exactly what we'll do.
I do not believe that what most people call "life after death" is the same thing as "rebirth".
I'm a little confused. In one post you state: "Life after death is not rebirth? I wasn't talking reincarnation." In the very next post you say, "Actually my understanding of rebirth/reincarnation is..."
I doubt most people know what the difference is between "rebirth" and "reincarnation", and pretty much lump the two concepts together. But they are both different than what I believe most people describe as "life after death".
As this thread on rebirth dies, another not exactly the same, but not entirely different, will be reborn...The seeds have been planted....That's karma for ya...
Thank you all for your participation and your interesting opinions-theories-etc etc...
Will we eventually know the truth ? Who knows...and who really cares....
I do not believe that what most people call "life after death" is the same thing as "rebirth".
I was referring to the rebirth described in the dhamma. From mother and father as well as spontaneously reborn beings.
Also many Christians and Muslims believe in a life after death in the heavens.
Reincarnation suggest but does not imply corporeality. So no need to get into that discussion. But enough said I got your numbers and I believe it. Bit surprising though.
I'm a little confused. In one post you state: "Life after death is not rebirth? I wasn't talking reincarnation." In the very next post you say, "Actually my understanding of rebirth/reincarnation is..."
Let's all leave this dying thread with a smile upon our faces....
"Dave comes home from the pub, drunkest he's been in a long time, and collapses into bed next to his sleeping wife. Later, he's woken by a brilliant flash of light at the end of his bed, which his still sleeping wife seems oblivious to. St. Peter appears in all his glory, standing over the two of them.
"You have died my son, of alcohol poisoning" says St. Peter. Dave is obviously distraught and begs and pleads with the saint to be given another chance at life.
"Well..." says St. Peter, thumbing through his saintly handbook, "There is a little known rule which might help. Apparently you can be reincarnated in special circumstances if you wish, but only as a dog or as a chicken I'm afraid.." Dave, living next door to a chicken farm, agrees to be reincarnated as a chicken, at least so he can still see his wife.
BOOM, the man is suddenly now a chicken, pecking around the chicken farm. A rooster approaches him and says "Hey! You must be the new arrival here! How's everything going?" "Pretty good" says Dave, "though my stomach feels a bit funny.." "Well you're obviously about to lay an egg! Give it a try; push one out!" So Dave wriggles and squirms and wriggles and squirms and out pops a nice egg!
"That felt great!" thinks Dave, "I think I'll lay another one!" So again he wriggles and squirms and wriggles and squirms and then !!BANG!! His wife angrily slaps him on the back of his head and screams in a rage: "For Christ's sake David!! You've shit the bed again!!!" . ..
Are there any Buddhist schools that actively reject the teachings on rebirth? I mean completely reject as opposed to leaving them on the back burner, or not viewing them as relevant to daily practice.
The only school I'm aware of that does this is secular Buddhism ( leaving aside the reluctance that secular Buddhists have to admitting they even belong to a school )
@SpinyNorman said:
Are there any Buddhist schools that actively reject the teachings on rebirth? I mean completely reject as opposed to leaving them on the back burner, or not viewing them as relevant to daily practice.
And how many % of Americans believe that being gay is sinful and marriage is only for heterosexuals?
There are still a good % of Americans who do not believe in the theory of evolution.
There will always be ignoramuses in this world and USA is no exception.
@vinlyn said:
Victorious, once again you're misquoting me. I didn't say that a majority of people disbelieve in life after death. I said that a majority disbelieve in rebirth ("To me, 50-50 that there is such a thing as rebirth since we have absolutely no concrete evidence for it. What is this "logic"? And if it so logical, why does a majority of world disagree with the concept?).
Perhaps I'm wrong in that assessment, and very willing to concede the point with some evidence. But I would offer that in one American poll, more people said they believed in witches than in reincarnation (I couldn't find any polls on "rebirth" per se). In another poll, 71% of Americans believe in the devil, while only 25% believe in reincarnation. In another poll, 42% believed in ghosts, 36% believed in UFOs, and 24% believed in reincarnation. I didn't find any polls from other countries.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2014
I think history will show that the majority are not logical by a long shot.
Because a logical argument can be made isn't to say the majority will see the logic.
Again, it doesn't make it true, it just means it doesn't go against what we currently know.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Victorious said: If there is no inspiration to walk the path then what good is it?
That's my point. Walking. When do you think you'll actually get to the point where you won't need to walk any more?
The choice is yours.
@SpinyNorman said:
Maybe wishful thinking is a way of describing craving though?
Did I say something different? I can't believe my use of the English is so poor that I have been misunderstood in at least three comments.
I prefer to stick to my quoted statements by the Buddha and Bikkhu Payutto above, and concentrate on essentials.
Did I plant the seeds for the events in my present life in another life? I don't know.
Is there another life in store for me? I don't know.
Am I responsible for making my present life as meaningful and suffering-free as possible, and by so doing, hypothetically plant the seeds for a meaningful life to come?
Yes. So speculations aside, I'll concentrate on that.
And if we go by polls and what people believe, so many people believe in a God and we still have to prove his existence.
This view of "logic" that several of you are talking about is really nothing more than self-centeredness.
In my opinon, what is logical to a Buddhist is often not logical at all to most Christians or Muslims (or other non-Buddhists), and vice-versa. Thinking your religion is the logical religion is just another more subtle way of saying, "My religion is better than your religion".
@vinlyn said:
This view of "logic" that several of you are talking about is really nothing more than self-centeredness.
In my opinon, what is logical to a Buddhist is often not logical at all to most Christians or Muslims (or other non-Buddhists), and vice-versa. Thinking your religion is the logical religion is just another more subtle way of saying, "My religion is better than your religion".
In Buddhism we use our logic and judgement.
Monotheistic religions mention "faith."
Is faith better than logic?
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2014
Not at all. At least I don't think I'm doing that.
I've heard logical arguments for the existence of God and though I do call Buddhism my religion, it is also a process which could be used in conjunction with many religions.
@vinlyn said:
This view of "logic" that several of you are talking about is really nothing more than self-centeredness.
In my opinon, what is logical to a Buddhist is often not logical at all to most Christians or Muslims (or other non-Buddhists), and vice-versa. Thinking your religion is the logical religion is just another more subtle way of saying, "My religion is better than your religion".
I seem to feel that logic is logic no matter the belief system.
@ourself said:
Not at all. At least I don't think I'm doing that.
I've heard logical arguments for the existence of God and though I do call Buddhism my religion, it is more like a process which could be used in conjunction with many religions.
@vinlyn said:
And do honestly believe that there is not a lot of "faith" in Buddhism?
It depends on the type of Buddhism, and on the adherent. Asian Buddhism has a lot of faith built in. But that's not because of anything the Buddha taught. The Buddha was anti-faith. Which is how a lot of Westerners understand Buddhism. So for them, yes, they honestly believe that there isn't a lot of "faith" in Buddhism. That's especially true for those Westerners who don't belong to a sangha, but are self-taught from books (and forums like this one . ) They absorb the principles the Buddha taught (pretty hard to not see logic in the 4NT's, for ex.) without the religious trappings one sees when one goes to sangha or temple.
Keeping in mind that the Pali lists faith as one of seven treasures,one of five spiritual faculties, one of four streams of merit, and one of the spiritual powers.
And before you ask, no, I can't cite chapter and verse on that for you, k?
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Toraldris -`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USAVeteran
edited August 2014
Faith as "confidence" differs from faith as "believing in things unseen".
My native Christianity says "believe", while Buddhism says "come see". That's a dividing gulf between them, and their approaches to knowledge, that can't be bridged.
@Chaz said:
Keeping in mind that the Pali lists faith as one of seven treasures,one of five spiritual >faculties, one of four streams of merit, and one of the spiritual powers.
And before you ask, no, I can't cite chapter and verse on that for you, k?
That's not the part that needs to be cited. The Buddha's many teachings on not accepting anything on faith are the more useful sutras. . It's sometimes said that faith in the Buddha's teachings is the only form of "faith" involved in Buddhism. But even that isn't correct. The Buddha taught to question and test everything.
@Dakini said:
That's not the part that needs to be cited. The Buddha's many teachings on not accepting anything on faith are the more useful sutras. . It's sometimes said that faith in the Buddha's teachings is the only form of "faith" involved in Buddhism. But even that isn't correct. The Buddha taught to question and test everything.
That's cool. Can you tell what teachings you refer to? The only on I know of, used to support such assertions is the Kalama Sutra.
And in the KS, the Buddha teaches the Kalamas to rely on certain, specific tests, including the "praise of the wise" (meaning excelent teachers and Buddhas). That is often pointed to as faith/confidence.
@Chaz said:
That's cool. Can you tell what teachings you refer to? The only on I know of, used to support such assertions is the Kalama Sutra.
And in the KS, the Buddha teaches the Kalamas to rely on certain, specific tests, including the "praise of the wise" (meaning excelent teachers and Buddhas). That is often pointed to as faith/confidence.
I hope you can clear that up.
I don't count the KS, because my interpretation of it is that the Buddha was being situation-specific, there, not speaking broadly and generally. (Threads have raged on this forum over that question.) But there are other sutras in which he says to test the teachings, that have been quoted on this forum. We'll see if someone can provide one of those.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@AldrisTorvalds said:
Faith as "confidence" differs from faith as "believing in things unseen".
My native Christianity says "believe", while Buddhism says "come see". That's a dividing gulf between them, and their approaches to knowledge, that can't be bridged.
Exactly so. I have confidence that certain logically derived conditions will incarnate. For example the belief that teachers who promote what I want to hear are wise. So for example rebirth/continuation of self in Pureland or some form, so convivial. Convinced? Not even by my own logic . . . :buck: .
I also like to believe that teachers are wise, rather than displaying more subtle forms of ignorance. Of course in my ignorance I am wise enough to follow wise teachers . . .
Now here is a question for your cushion. What arises without falling? Incarnates without being? Sure you already logically know the answer . . . but can you find it . . . :wave: .
Comments
@DhammaDragon That's very interesting, thanks for posting that. It lends support to those scholars who say that rebirth was a later influence from Hinduism, and that the Buddha never taught rebirth. Now I see what the basis of that argument is.
Now, personally, I never believed in rebirth until I had an experience where past life memories started bubbling up. And even then, I couldn't believe it, I went into denial. But it was later confirmed by someone else. So whether or not the Buddha taught rebirth doesn't matter to me, because I go by my own experience. And such a belief (or "knowing") isn't incompatible with Buddhism.
The Buddha appears to have left people to their own personal beliefs, as long as they didn't contradict his teachings. So it's not like he said one isn't allowed to believe in rebirth. Unless such belief fosters attachment, in some way. We're free to wing it, to a certain extent, around the edges of Buddhism, in terms of choosing to believe in a creator deity, or rebirth, or the divine nature of this or that prophet, as long as we practice the principles the Buddha taught.
What is being reincarnated, according to Pali sources, are the karmic seeds that were created in past lifetimes, not someone's personality. Tibetans go a step further, and say it's "consciousness" ("the very, very subtle mind"--the DL) that gets reborn. However, knowing the answer to the question, "What is being reincarnated" doesn't address the issue of whether or not the Buddha actually taught that, i.e. whether or not that was one of his teachings, or whether it found its way into the sutras later.
Well don't worry about it then.
You haz no self according to dharma and hopefully your emerging practice realization. This self thing you don't have returns after the conditions, through the process of child development and consciousness emergence, rots away back to emptiness?
I think not.
You follow a path were the only individuals who do not rebirth are Buddhas. Maybe you will be less confused in tomorrow's incarnation . . .
. . . and now back to the recycling of belief, ideas and things to cling to . . .
:wave: .
Actually, it is a process that seemingly takes place independently of whether you desire it or not.
It is your clinging / craving that drag you into the maelstrom of rebirths.
"This question is not calculated to profit, it is not concerned with the Dhamma, it does not redound even to the elements of right conduct, nor to detachment, nor to purification from lusts, nor to quietude, nor to tranquillisation of heart, nor to real knowledge, nor to the insight of the higher stages of the Path, nor to Nirvana. Therefore it is that I express no opinion about it."
The fact that the Buddha expressed no opinion about Rebirth -though in many other suttas he makes explicit reference to it- does not contradict anyone's willingness to believe in past lives and rebirths.
Bikkhu Payutto, a highly-respected Theravada monk says:
"The Dhamma teachings of Lord Buddha aim at practical results; he wants everyone to take charge of life in this world starting from the present moment on, to know the principle of the Middle Way, and to understand how to tread the Middle Path. All of these things can be applied to life. If there is any speculation regarding a life after this one, then seriously set your mind on making this life the way you want your next life to be. Build your confidence to the point that you are not worried about the next life at all."
@DhammaDragon I think what @vinlyn probably meant isn't that craving or clinging are part of the rebirth process, but that rebirth as a concept is the result of craving and clinging. It's something we want to believe in, because we don't actually see it as suffering -- we see it as escaping death and continuing to be alive/exist, similar to other afterlife notions such as the Christian "heaven".
Thank you, @AldrisTorvalds. You read carefully!
@AldrisTorvalds, as I understood it, it was rather a pondering whether rebirth wasn't a sort of desire, let's say, for transcendence like you say, and as such, related to clinging.
My idea was that if rebirth indeed exists, the phenomenon simply takes place, beyond your wishful thinking, and it is usually our ignorance and attachments that trigger the process of rebirths...
@vinlyn I think it's more a case of similar methodology than careful reading.
Everyone that was replying to your post seemed to be missing the mark... mistaking your meaning because they had already moved past the question of whether rebirth actually takes place. I haven't, and I suspected you hadn't either. There are people who have personal anecdotes about near-death experiences of heaven too, so I have to find fault in personal anecdotes of rebirth or reincarnation being considered reliable evidence (even if they are direct first-hand experiences, they're not different in nature to the claims of people from other religions... that experience different things).
Without reliable evidence, I'm left with only the knowledge that multiple lifetime rebirth is taught and that some people believe it... nothing to go on personally; not a single shred during my lifetime or decade as a Buddhist. That's why I haven't chimed in before this. I'm glad that I was right about your meaning, at least!
I'm really not going to argue with anyone about rebirth, as I suspect it would be pointless (like arguing whether Jesus was/is divine with someone that claims to have a personal relationship with him).
I used to worry about this stuff myself until I realized this most valuable fact of all: When I follow the Dharma, I am happy, and when I do not follow the Dharma, I am not happy. One truly happy moment is worth more than any number of past or future lifetimes. Why? Because this moment is real, whereas the rest is either memory or speculation.
"And now I'm doing time for mistakes made by another in another lifetime.." --"Galileo" by the Indigo Girls (don't laugh!)
I don't think we have. My point is that if it happens it will happen whether we want it to or not and if it doesn't no amount of wishing will force it. To me, this isn't the issue because whether or not rebirth happens, I won't be there except for fodder for potential.
I don't see it in the same light as the notion of Heaven because to me, rebirth makes logical sense given all we have learned about how things behave.
That certainly doesn't mean it's true or anything and it isn't something I think we should worry about but if I was a murderer I might.
Karmic rebirth could be just another concept made to scare us straight. Act well or you will be a carrot next time around.
See, that's what I fail to see -- "the logic".
To me, 50-50 that there is such a thing as rebirth since we have absolutely no concrete evidence for it.
What is this "logic"? And if it so logical, why does a majority of world disagree with the concept?
And this doubt in my mind is my "logic" for thinking it may be another means of people wanting there to be something beyond.
Before anyone responds, let me say again, I am totally undecided about the concept. Could be. Could be not. It's interesting.
@vinlyn
No sweat, my friend. That's the only reason I like to talk about it as well. I neither believe nor disbelieve but I do find it interesting.
I do think it happens but I don't have any hope hung on that so can't go as far as to say I believe...
I may see rebirth differently as I see rebirth in everything being born. I feel that if rebirth is real that it is a misnomer because it seems more like inter-birth to me (if you see what I mean). I think that if I was anyone before now, I have been and will be everyone eventually. And please know I use the word "I" lightly. I doubt "I" will be there whether it happens or not.
A linear line of incarnations wouldn't seem to apply then.
It seems logical to me because I liken it to the hydro-logical system that water follows except with awareness of being.
For the record, I always value your views and ideas even when we disagree.
Maybe wishful thinking is a way of describing craving though?
There is no verifiable evidence for it at all, in the same way that there is verifiable evidence for God. For me rebirth is a more plausible idea than God, or at least less implausible.
Yepp but what does it matter to identify one craving inducing thing in a billion or more that is all around us and point finger and say lo and behold this is a bad thing?
The truth is that all things lead to craving for the uninstructed mind.
Is it not so? So why lift up this thing on a pedestal?
/Victor
I guess because a lot of westerners are very sceptical about it, so it becomes a big deal.
Is it really so? Does a majority of the world disagree with life after death? I thought it was the other way around?
I'm somewhat the other way, but I agree with your basic assessment.
Then I would say that that big deal is a craving and clinging induced too and a object for craving and clinging. Hmm.
And no I am not going to guess which is the worse.
>
Quoted for "See? I told you all this speculation was just more blah-blah....."
.
@Victorious, once again you're misquoting me. I didn't say that a majority of people disbelieve in life after death. I said that a majority disbelieve in rebirth ("To me, 50-50 that there is such a thing as rebirth since we have absolutely no concrete evidence for it. What is this "logic"? And if it so logical, why does a majority of world disagree with the concept?).
Perhaps I'm wrong in that assessment, and very willing to concede the point with some evidence. But I would offer that in one American poll, more people said they believed in witches than in reincarnation (I couldn't find any polls on "rebirth" per se). In another poll, 71% of Americans believe in the devil, while only 25% believe in reincarnation. In another poll, 42% believed in ghosts, 36% believed in UFOs, and 24% believed in reincarnation. I didn't find any polls from other countries.
Life after death is not rebirth? I wasn't talking reincarnation.
I do not have any numbers either. So it might be a mistake on my part too.
/Victor
Actually my understanding of rebirth/reincarnation is just as @upekka said one of my strongest motivations to cultivate and get the hell out of dodge as fast as I can...
I think the same goes for many Buddhists that believe in reincarnation.
(Freely quoted).
I really do not want to play that game anymore.
/Victor
While we are preoccupied, and worry that we do not want to play this game any more, that's exactly what we'll do.
I do not believe that what most people call "life after death" is the same thing as "rebirth".
I'm a little confused. In one post you state: "Life after death is not rebirth? I wasn't talking reincarnation." In the very next post you say, "Actually my understanding of rebirth/reincarnation is..."
I doubt most people know what the difference is between "rebirth" and "reincarnation", and pretty much lump the two concepts together. But they are both different than what I believe most people describe as "life after death".
Kia Ora,
As this thread on rebirth dies, another not exactly the same, but not entirely different, will be reborn...The seeds have been planted....That's karma for ya...
Thank you all for your participation and your interesting opinions-theories-etc etc...
Will we eventually know the truth ? Who knows...and who really cares....
Metta Shoshin .
..
If there is no inspiration to walk the path then what good is it?
I was referring to the rebirth described in the dhamma. From mother and father as well as spontaneously reborn beings.
Also many Christians and Muslims believe in a life after death in the heavens.
Reincarnation suggest but does not imply corporeality. So no need to get into that discussion. But enough said I got your numbers and I believe it. Bit surprising though.
Yepp two different things.
Kia Ora,
Let's all leave this dying thread with a smile upon our faces....
"Dave comes home from the pub, drunkest he's been in a long time, and collapses into bed next to his sleeping wife. Later, he's woken by a brilliant flash of light at the end of his bed, which his still sleeping wife seems oblivious to. St. Peter appears in all his glory, standing over the two of them.
..
"You have died my son, of alcohol poisoning" says St. Peter. Dave is obviously distraught and begs and pleads with the saint to be given another chance at life.
"Well..." says St. Peter, thumbing through his saintly handbook, "There is a little known rule which might help. Apparently you can be reincarnated in special circumstances if you wish, but only as a dog or as a chicken I'm afraid.." Dave, living next door to a chicken farm, agrees to be reincarnated as a chicken, at least so he can still see his wife.
BOOM, the man is suddenly now a chicken, pecking around the chicken farm. A rooster approaches him and says "Hey! You must be the new arrival here! How's everything going?" "Pretty good" says Dave, "though my stomach feels a bit funny.." "Well you're obviously about to lay an egg! Give it a try; push one out!" So Dave wriggles and squirms and wriggles and squirms and out pops a nice egg!
"That felt great!" thinks Dave, "I think I'll lay another one!" So again he wriggles and squirms and wriggles and squirms and then !!BANG!! His wife angrily slaps him on the back of his head and screams in a rage: "For Christ's sake David!! You've shit the bed again!!!" .
Metta Shoshin .
..
Are there any Buddhist schools that actively reject the teachings on rebirth? I mean completely reject as opposed to leaving them on the back burner, or not viewing them as relevant to daily practice.
)
The only school I'm aware of that does this is secular Buddhism ( leaving aside the reluctance that secular Buddhists have to admitting they even belong to a school
I don't think so.
And how many % of Americans believe that being gay is sinful and marriage is only for heterosexuals?
There are still a good % of Americans who do not believe in the theory of evolution.
There will always be ignoramuses in this world and USA is no exception.
I think history will show that the majority are not logical by a long shot.
Because a logical argument can be made isn't to say the majority will see the logic.
Again, it doesn't make it true, it just means it doesn't go against what we currently know.
That's my point. Walking. When do you think you'll actually get to the point where you won't need to walk any more?
The choice is yours.
Did I say something different? I can't believe my use of the English is so poor that I have been misunderstood in at least three comments.
I prefer to stick to my quoted statements by the Buddha and Bikkhu Payutto above, and concentrate on essentials.
Did I plant the seeds for the events in my present life in another life? I don't know.
Is there another life in store for me? I don't know.
Am I responsible for making my present life as meaningful and suffering-free as possible, and by so doing, hypothetically plant the seeds for a meaningful life to come?
Yes. So speculations aside, I'll concentrate on that.
And if we go by polls and what people believe, so many people believe in a God and we still have to prove his existence.
This view of "logic" that several of you are talking about is really nothing more than self-centeredness.
In my opinon, what is logical to a Buddhist is often not logical at all to most Christians or Muslims (or other non-Buddhists), and vice-versa. Thinking your religion is the logical religion is just another more subtle way of saying, "My religion is better than your religion".
In Buddhism we use our logic and judgement.
Monotheistic religions mention "faith."
Is faith better than logic?
Not at all. At least I don't think I'm doing that.
I've heard logical arguments for the existence of God and though I do call Buddhism my religion, it is also a process which could be used in conjunction with many religions.
I seem to feel that logic is logic no matter the belief system.
Monotheistic religions mention "faith."
Is faith better than logic?
Where have I said that faith is better than logic?
And do honestly believe that there is not a lot of "faith" in Buddhism?
That's logical.
It depends on the type of Buddhism, and on the adherent. Asian Buddhism has a lot of faith built in. But that's not because of anything the Buddha taught. The Buddha was anti-faith. Which is how a lot of Westerners understand Buddhism. So for them, yes, they honestly believe that there isn't a lot of "faith" in Buddhism. That's especially true for those Westerners who don't belong to a sangha, but are self-taught from books (and forums like this one
. ) They absorb the principles the Buddha taught (pretty hard to not see logic in the 4NT's, for ex.) without the religious trappings one sees when one goes to sangha or temple.
Keeping in mind that the Pali lists faith as one of seven treasures,one of five spiritual faculties, one of four streams of merit, and one of the spiritual powers.
And before you ask, no, I can't cite chapter and verse on that for you, k?
Faith as "confidence" differs from faith as "believing in things unseen".
My native Christianity says "believe", while Buddhism says "come see". That's a dividing gulf between them, and their approaches to knowledge, that can't be bridged.
That's not the part that needs to be cited. The Buddha's many teachings on not accepting anything on faith are the more useful sutras.
. It's sometimes said that faith in the Buddha's teachings is the only form of "faith" involved in Buddhism. But even that isn't correct. The Buddha taught to question and test everything.
That's cool. Can you tell what teachings you refer to? The only on I know of, used to support such assertions is the Kalama Sutra.
And in the KS, the Buddha teaches the Kalamas to rely on certain, specific tests, including the "praise of the wise" (meaning excelent teachers and Buddhas). That is often pointed to as faith/confidence.
I hope you can clear that up.
I think it is and between tests and not or.
I don't count the KS, because my interpretation of it is that the Buddha was being situation-specific, there, not speaking broadly and generally. (Threads have raged on this forum over that question.) But there are other sutras in which he says to test the teachings, that have been quoted on this forum. We'll see if someone can provide one of those.
Can't you....?
Exactly so. I have confidence that certain logically derived conditions will incarnate. For example the belief that teachers who promote what I want to hear are wise. So for example rebirth/continuation of self in Pureland or some form, so convivial. Convinced? Not even by my own logic . . . :buck: .
I also like to believe that teachers are wise, rather than displaying more subtle forms of ignorance. Of course in my ignorance I am wise enough to follow wise teachers . . .
Now here is a question for your cushion. What arises without falling? Incarnates without being? Sure you already logically know the answer . . . but can you find it . . . :wave: .