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Rebirth....No doubt many of you have been down this path before! (pun intended)
yep. I tried. I told my fingers, "Fingers, you're only covering old territory we've been through many times before. Why don't you find more useful things to do this morning?"
Fingers ignored me. So it's not my fault.
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I am not sure who you are trying to convince but rebirth does not conflict with the way the universe works at a all. Not even a little bit.
It may conflict with personal intuition regarding scientific findings but not the findings themselves. The conservation of energy has no loop holes as far as I am aware so absolutely everything gets recycled. Black holes eat light and white holes (quasars) spit it out.
It is likely wiser to say that rebirth goes against your personal understanding than to say it goes against how the universe works because for all we know, the known universe is also just a speck compared to the actual universe which could include countless so called "big bangs".
It could be wiser still to say your understanding of rebirth goes against how the universe works. Afterall, you assume rebirth and/or reincarnation posits a universe designed for our benefit when it most certainly does not.
It took millions of years for the brain to evolve enough to be able to put this kind of thought together and become as aware as we are. There is also seeming infinite space and so this planet likely isn't alone in having sentient beings.
Is there a Buddhist school anywhere that teaches there is a first cause? I thought it was usually dependant origination or inter-being.
Swapping names is what got us into this mess.
"We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself"
-- Carl Sagan
I would indeed say it is just the universe but not that it's responsible. To be responsible is to be aware and to be honest, I think we're still mostly running on instinct.
To me, instinct is an indicator of a kind of rebirth.
@Cinojer Actually, the first new age teachings I have personally read was already a full book and extremely well developed and that was around 1920 and I have books from 1840 which also describe many of the concepts.
The mayans have said this and that was a looong time ago. They have said this event would start at 2012 and it does correlate with more and more people meditating, questioning world views and revolution breaking out more and more.
Don't you notice the gradual shift in the world more and more? I do and it's fascinating.
New age just carries this whole stereotype of hippies sky high on acid or similar views so I generally dislike the concept.
All I know is that these books describe processes and laws of nature which are only being discovered by science today. It hints that the subjective spiritual nature is just as effective and should not be disregarded as hocus pocus. Everything is magical until scientifically proven for most people.
United nations is as well a new age organization with mainly spiritual objectives and are actively striving towards maintaining and gently aiding in the shift.
More information on this can be found here: http://www.aquaac.org/un/found.html
@Cinorjer said:
Fingers ignored me. So it's not my fault.
I'm going to give it up for Lent.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2014
I don't have a stake in this either way because if it happens, I still won't be there.
It just makes me scratch my head when people say it goes against current scientific understanding. We simply don't know enough about consciousness yet to say what exactly happens so to say it can not be recycled seems dogmatic especially when virtually everything else is.
And what about instinct and natural selection? Why does nature allow for that which is most beneficial? Why does an infant have instinct?
I don't know anyone that believes in rebirth or reincarnation that thinks the individual survives after death so I still don't know why people want to explain it away so badly.
The concept doesn't have to include the magical "woo woo" thinking like many that rail against it figure.
@Chaz said:
We apply the suttra, but we don't apply our minds as you suggest.
I am not sure that I could be capable of applying sutras to sutras without any intervention of the mind as you do but fortunately I mostly read suttas and only read a few sutras on occasion and will therefore forgo the suggested exercise.
Thanks for you benevolent instruction all the same.
@ourself said:
I don't have a stake in this either way because if it happens, I still won't be there.
It just makes me scratch my head when people say it goes against current scientific understanding. We simply don't know enough about consciousness yet to say what exactly happens so to say it can not be recycled seems dogmatic especially when virtually everything else is.
Quite right. For all the railing we hear, about something like rebirth, is as if science had actually weighed in on the subject. It hasn't. No study, so findings, no review, nothing.
The truth is, we are completely on our own, and being that way, hiding our opinion behind what we incorrectly claim science supports, seems a bit strange to me.
And what about instinct and natural selection? Why does nature allow for that which is most beneficial? Why does an infant have instinct?
Excellent example. Noone will deny that we have instincts, yet noone can say where instinct resides or how we aquire them. Contrasted with ideas such as rebirth, it's peculiar that we don't beat ourselves up over the subject, the way we do over rebirth.
I don't know anyone that believes in rebirth or reincarnation that thinks the individual survives after death so I still don't know why people want to explain it away so badly.
Same here. I don't know of a single Buddhist that harbors that belief, either, and I know a lot of Buddhists. I'm sure there are those that do and I'd appreciate it if those who rail against such beliefs take it up with them.
Thankfully, Buddhism isn't about beliefs. It's about practice. What I believe about rebirth makes absolutely no difference. My practice does.
@zenff said:
This little Advaita book that I am reading has an interesting remark on reincarnation.
The writer does not support the idea of personal rebirth, but being an Advaita teacher believes in a universal undivided Self.
The point of Advaita is that our separate “self” is an illusion. We all are the one undivided “Self”.
The Buddha taught a Self that is the Buddhanature inherent in everyone. Before realizing the greater Self, the illusion of the lesser, grasping "self" needs to be realized.
Just curious, @zenff, since this was the last of his teachings, before his death, considered an important Mahayana teaching, do you know why Zen doesn't teach this? Or does it?
As far as I could find, his last teaching was this:
"Behold, O monks, this is my advice to you. All component things in the world are changeable. They are not lasting. Work hard to gain your own salvation."
Which seems to contradict your assertion that he taught about a "greater self".
All things in the world are changeable. No enduring self. That's the way I read it.
It's the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, teaching that the True Self is Buddhanature. He also teaches that Buddhanature (True Self), once realized, is permanent. It's sometimes called "the Eternal Self".
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2014
@robot said:
All things in the world are changeable. No enduring self. That's the way I read it.
All component things in the world...But a greater self would be none other than the world in its entirety. That's just my guess.
@ourself said:
All component things in the world...But a greater self would be none other than the world in its entirety. That's just my guess.
I don't buy it. The whole ball of wax is no less empty for being lumped together.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
At times like this, the two truths comes in handy.
I personally know many seasoned and enlightened practitioners who remembered their past lives in deep meditation -- upekkha in this forum is just one of them.
I do not doubt the existence of rebirth, and I think if one is to go deeply into dharma, it is indispensible.
"Dharma Lite" Versus
"The Real Thing" Dharma
Alexander Berzin
March 2002
The Importance of Rebirth
Tibetan Buddhism follows the Indian tradition and all Indian traditions take for granted belief in rebirth. Even if traditional Buddhist seekers do not have a deep understanding of what takes rebirth or how rebirth works, still they have grown up with the idea of rebirth as a cultural given. They need merely to have their understandings refined, but do not need to become convinced in the existence of rebirth. Therefore, texts on the graded stages of the path (lam-rim) do not even mention the topic of gaining conviction in the existence of rebirth.
Without rebirth, the discussion of mind having no beginning and no end becomes meaningless. Without beginningless and endless mind, the entire presentation of karma falls apart. This is because the karmic results of our actions most frequently do not ripen in the same lifetime in which we commit the actions. Without the presentation of karmic cause and effect over the span of many lifetimes, the discussion of the voidness of cause and effect and of dependent arising likewise falls apart.
Moreover, in terms of the three scopes of lam-rim motivation, how can we sincerely aim for benefiting future lives without belief in the existence of future lives? How can we sincerely aim for gaining liberation from uncontrollably recurring rebirth (samsara) without belief in rebirth? How can we sincerely aim for enlightenment and the ability to help others gain liberation from rebirth without belief that rebirth is a fact?
In terms of bodhichitta meditation, how can we sincerely recognize all beings as having been our mothers in previous lives without believing in previous lives? In terms of anuttarayoga tantra, how can we sincerely meditate in analogy with death, bardo, and rebirth to purify ourselves of uncontrollably experiencing them if we do not believe that bardo and rebirth occur?
Thus, it is clearly evident that rebirth is a cornerstone for a large and crucial portion of the Dharma teachings.
"Dharma-Lite" and "The Real Thing" Dharma
Most Westerners come to Dharma without prior belief in rebirth. Many approach the study and practice of Dharma as a method for improving the quality of this lifetime, especially in terms of overcoming psychological and emotional problems. This attitude reduces Dharma to an Asian form of psychotherapy.
I have coined the term Dharma-Lite for this approach to Buddhist Dharma, analogous to "CocaCola-Lite." It is a weakened version, not as strong as "The Real Thing." The traditional approach to Dharma – which includes not only discussion of rebirth, but also the presentation of the hells and the rest of the six realms of existence – I have termed The Real Thing Dharma.
Two Ways to Practice Dharma-Lite
There are two ways to practice Dharma-Lite.
We may practice it with acknowledgment of the importance of rebirth in Buddhism and the sincere intention to study the accurate teachings on it. Thus, we aim to improve this lifetime with the Dharma methods merely as a steppingstone on the way to working to improve our future rebirths and to gain liberation and enlightenment. Thus, Dharma-Lite becomes a preliminary step on the graded path to enlightenment, a step prior to the initial scope. Such an approach is completely fair to the Buddhist tradition. It does not call Dharma-Lite "The Real Thing."
We may practice it with the recognition that Dharma-Lite is not only the actual Dharma, but also the most appropriate and skillful form for Western Buddhism to take. Such an approach shortchanges and is grossly unfair to the Buddhist tradition. It easily leads to an attitude of cultural arrogance.
Therefore, we need to proceed with great care if we find that, at our present level of spiritual development and understanding, Dharma-Lite is the drink for us.
Schematic Summary of Dharma-Lite
Buddhism becomes Dharma-Lite when
the aim is to improve only in this life;
the student has little or no understanding of the Buddhist teachings on rebirth;
consequently, the student has neither belief nor interest in future lives;
even if the student believes in rebirth, he or she does not accept the existence of the six realms of rebirth;
the Dharma teacher avoids discussion of rebirth or, even if he or she discusses rebirth, avoids discussion of the hells. The teacher reduces the six realms to human psychological experiences.
Schematic Summary of The Real Thing Dharma
The Real Thing Dharma is the authentic traditional practice of Buddhism, in which
the student at least acknowledges the importance of rebirth on the spiritual path and has the sincere wish to gain a correct understanding of it;
the student aims either for liberation from uncontrollably recurring rebirth or for enlightenment and the ability to help all others gain liberation;
even if the student aims for improving future lives, this is merely as a provisional step on the path to gaining liberation or enlightenment;
even if the student aims for improving this life, this is merely as a provisional step on the path to improving future lives and gaining liberation or enlightenment.
Pages with Similar Content:
Comparison of the "Dharma-Lite" and "Real Thing Dharma" Versions of Lam-rim
Approaching the Dharma in a Balanced Way – Session Two: Dharma-Lite vs. Hard-Core Dharma
Self-Transformation through the Lam-rim Graded Stages (video + audio + transcript) (multipart text)
Distinguishing Dharma from Asian Culture
Elaboration of “Approaches to the Dharma – Intellectual, Emotional and Devotional”
The Buddhist Explanation of Rebirth – Part One: The Place of Rebirth in Buddhism and the Topic of Mental Continuums
The Importance of Understanding Rebirth and Believing in It
Listening to, Thinking about, and Meditating on the Dharma – Session Two: Listening to the Dharma Teachings
Those who strip out rebirth and karma are stripping out the basis for practicing for liberation. That is, they only experience the meagre benefits of calm abiding in their meditation, but they will never experience the benefits that the wisdom of dharma has to offer which leads towards the liberation from afflictions (passion, aggression and delusion) - the causes of samsara and rebirth. All they want will be some inner peace, but they will never get to the true import and goal of Buddhadharma which is Nirvana.
Since all they have is one life (a.k.a. 'YOLO'), there is no need to care about future life at all, other than to just enjoy one's life in a hedonistic way. Meditation is merely just a means for them to experience some relaxation.
When my spiritual mentor, lets just call him X because he likes anonymity, recalled numberless past lives and faces in his meditation samadhi one day long long time ago, he got sick of it and realized the necessity to be liberated. He also got the sense that this life is really not very important at all (other than to practice, that is), what used to be very important turns out to be quite meaningless.
Got another time long long time ago, King Yama (lord of the death, a.k.a 阎罗王) and another spirit were speaking to each other when he was meditating - and both of them were saying that he has not overcome death. He did not even know who 'yama' was at that time, but he heard a voice addressing Yama and Yama said oh, so that was the one who has not yet overcome death. When he came out of meditation he went to find out what 'yama' is. Why did yama appear in his meditation? I do not know, maybe to serve as a reminder. He was already quite experienced and had certain realization at that time, but it is always good to remind ourselves that the path is long ahead and not get carried away.
If we are real practitioners of Buddhadharma who accept rebirth and karma, we must not kid ourselves, death is our real test. Until we have perfected our practice and attained complete liberation, we must never be satisfied with some results in practice, we must never satisfied with our realization, much less what those atheist get out of meditation (some minor relaxation or peace, which is meagre). On the other hand if there is no rebirth, then everyone will achieve 'Nirvana' at death without practice so one can just relax and take things easy and just enjoy life as it is, therefore such a view is fundamentally at odds with the Buddhadharma and is totally not appropriate for real practitioners. Thinking about death and rebirth everyday will instill a sense of urgency and necessity for practice which will never come if we reject rebirth.
X also said in 2006:
"Life is like a passing cloud, when it comes to an end, a hundred years is like yesterday, like a snap of a finger. If it is only about one life, it really doesnt matter whether we are enlightened. The insight that the Blessed One has is not just about one life; countless lives we suffered, life after life, unending. Such is suffering.
It is not about logic or science and there is really no point arguing in this scientific age. Take steps in practice and experience the truth of Buddhas words. Of the 3 dharma seals, the truth of suffering to me is most difficult to experience in depth.
May all take Buddhas words seriously."
Those that hold the wrong view that there is no rebirth, are opponents to the arahants who have recalled their past lives and declared the existence of rebirth. Holders of wrong view cannot be expected to attain the goal, since right view is the forerunner of the noble eightfold path which leads to Nirvana.
Buddha:
"Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he is says that 'There is no next world,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is no next world,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view."
...
Someone wrote: "It is not true that if one rejects the notion of rebirth one will necessarily take the easy way out and slack off in one’s practice on the paths of purifications."
I responded:
I'm not saying that an atheist will be slack at what they passionately do. Of course an atheist can still be practicing meditation quite diligently (just like an atheist can be a diligent yoga practitioner [modern yoga is usually stripped off from its Samkhya roots which is fundamentally spiritual aiming to attain self-realization of Purusha, having stripped off its spiritual context modern yoga is often left with a set of watered-down mental and physical asanas or exercises with benefits only on that level], or diligent swimmer, or dancer, etc), but they will never dwell into the true essence of Buddhism, and they will not be so concerned about getting rid of fundamental ignorance and delusion and samsara in its entirety. Their main concern is merely for the limited benefits of here-now. If meditation makes their life happier, they are satisfied with it, who cares whether there is rebirth or one has 'overcome rebirth'. Therefore they are satisfied with whatever meagre benefits they have (even if they had some limited insights as a result of practicing meditation). Therefore, they are 'slack' when it comes to practicing for the aim of overcoming fundamental root ignorance and samsara.
If an Atheist were to ask me instructions on meditation and dharma, I will not say "oh you should not practice meditation since you are atheist". Of course not. I will talk about meditation and dharma to them and encourage them to find some benefit from the teachings. But lets not pretend they are getting anywhere close to what Buddhadharma is truly about if they do not even accept the need to overcome samsara.
Since they are only concerned with some limited here-and-now benefits out of watered-down mindfulness and relaxation practices (found even in common medical/psychotherapy and self-help), they are not concerned with something like 'the ultimate Nirvana that is liberation from samsara and rebirth' (though they may misperceive what they experience to be so called 'liberation'). They may not even believe that it is possible to truly put an end to the three poisons of passion, aggression and delusion. (Putting an end as in terminating the defilements, not merely a transient shamatha state where defilements are suppressed) They may think that ending passion, aggression and delusion is a thing of myth, that at most what we can experience is some limited mental peace and equanimity while passion, aggression and delusion continue to arise though in a more controlled way. Even if they were to gain some meagre insight and benefits, they will never take it all the way to put an end to samsaric birth and death.
A true Buddhist practitioner is not satisfied with anything short of the end of rebirth and all samsaric afflictions driving birth and death. A true Buddhist practitioner is not satisfied with any meagre insights or benefits short of the direct knowledge: "Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, there is no more coming to any state of being."
In short: atheists can be passionate about their so called 'practice', but they generally do not even believe in what purification truly entails - or their idea of purification is very shallow and do not get at the roots of completely overcoming the defilements that result in samsara. They may claim to practice for purification but their purification is very limited.
As what Buddha said of Devadatta:
(Devadatta Sutta)
...and although there was more that should have been done, he stopped halfway through gaining a trifling attainment of distinction...
...Having thought himself his equal,
He assaulted the Tathagata
And went to the four-doored frightful palace
Avici the Unremitting Hell...
@xabir said:
I personally know many seasoned and enlightened practitioners who remembered their past lives in deep meditation -- upekkha in this forum is just one of them.
I do not doubt the existence of rebirth, and I think if one is to go deeply into dharma, it is indispensible.
"Dharma Lite" Versus
"The Real Thing" Dharma
Alexander Berzin
March 2002
The Importance of Rebirth
Tibetan Buddhism follows the Indian tradition and all Indian traditions take for granted belief in rebirth.
This is quite the introductory statement! It says Tibetan Buddhism follows Hinduism (not Buddhism). So therefore belief in rebirth is foundational to Tibetan Buddhism.
This is specific to TB and has no bearing on other schools of Buddhism, none of which follow Hinduism.
Tibetan Buddhism does not follow Hinduism pertaining to matters of view. Rebirth is foundational to all schools of Buddhism and is taught in the Pali suttas.
The purpose of Dhamma is up to the individual, however, the Buddhadharma (Buddha's dharma) as written in the suttas and expressed by Buddha has a specific goal, and whether people wish to follow it or not is up to them.
@xabir said:
Tibetan Buddhism does not follow Hinduism pertaining to matters of view. Rebirth is foundational to all schools of Buddhism and is taught in the Pali suttas.
Quotes from the Pali, please? Some sutras are contested as to authenticity, and conflict with other sutras (like the quote in DhammaDragon's post at the beginning of the thread). But this is an argument that's unwinnable without studying Pali and reading the sutras. And even sutra scholars disagree as to which passages are "early" and which are "late", and therefore suspect.
Berzin says TB follows Hinduism on the matter of rebirth.
"Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he is says that 'There is no next world,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is no next world,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view."
If you have even studied the Pali Canon, you would know that the teaching of rebirth is a core teaching that is taught all over the place -- not in one, or two, but so many of them. The Pali Canon is the "early teachings" and is an undisputed source of teaching for all traditions.
Knowledge of past lives is one of the three knowledges that Buddha gained on the day of his enlightenment -- rebirth, karma that leads to the different modes of birth, and the ending of defilements.
The Buddha's teaching on rebirth is very consistent throughout the Pali Canon even in the earliest teachings and not only in one or two suttas, and there is no reason to reject it as being some 'late additions' at all.
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details."
I have read thousands of pages of suttas, and it is clear as day that anyone who has done that much of reading cannot possibly dispute that rebirth is a central doctrine of Buddha.
Sure. I understand due to the popularity of materialistic views, it can take a leap of faith. But we have to understand that there is nothing in science that disproof rebirth other than faulty conjectures. For example, seeing a correlation between brainwave activity and mental states does not therefore imply that mind is solely produced by brain and dies with it.
Then there are quite convincing studies done by Dr. Ian Stevensons, etc, and countless reports by meditators who can recall their past lives just as Buddha did.
Even so, these all may not convince everyone. But the Buddha did not set out to prove rebirth and his realizations through objective science. A leap of faith is required, although not necessarily "blind faith". Yes, don't stop at faith, but faith is indispensible in the path.
...The point I am making is that we have three authorities in Buddhism, as Malcolm stated,
"Classically in India, materialists (but not Buddhists and so forth) only accepted direct perception as authoritative. However, the Buddha held that there were three authorities: direct perception, inference, and testimony of reliable witnesses."
"...So what are the parameters of Buddhist logic, or "pramana"? They are that there are three valid forms of authority: direct perception, inference, and testimony of special witnesses, such as the Buddha.
Dharmakirti's entire project is to prove that Buddha is a special witness, without recourse to sutras and so on. If one can show that indeed the Buddha is a special witness, then it follows that one can heed what the Buddha says without reservation. You should get Jackson's book "Is Enlightenment Possible" which deals with this very issue, and includes a logical defense of rebirth..."
Personally I am not someone who readily accepts everything being told, however, I have come to have great confidence and great acceptance of the Buddha's teachings.
See, this is why, in Buddhism, 'faith' is one of the five powers that leads to awakening (five powers: faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom). Buddhism is something that utilizes faith as part of its practice, we do not just throw out faith and rely solely on direct perception, nor do we solely rely on faith throwing out direct perception, but rather, we utilize faith and the five powers to gain direct perception of the truths that the Buddha taught. This is important because not all truths are readibly available to our immediate five senses - for example, certain truths that can be seen require the development of samadhi.
How can we know or judge whether someone is a 'special witness'? Well, it depends on your own discernment really, we have to exercise our wisdom to judge and discern..." (continued in URL)
Is he an awakened, reliable, experienced practitioner, man of integrity, speaking only from experience and not conjectures, etc? To me, Buddha is, and so is many other enlightened person I'm so fortunate to know in this life.
A true Buddhist practitioner is not satisfied with anything short of the end of rebirth and all samsaric afflictions driving birth and death. A true Buddhist practitioner is not satisfied with any meagre insights or benefits short of the direct knowledge: "Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, there is no more coming to any state of being."
"Not satisfied" is the key here.
I think it is a trap for people who embrace the idea of rebirth and reject samsara.
They may join the anti-life movement and get stuck in some sort of universal aversion.
The “atheist” has an advantage maybe. He has to solve this clinging-to-aversion- problem or his entire (and only) life will be miserable.
As we know, the Buddha was brought up with a belief in heaven and so went there to learn from the angels . . . oops . . . no he was born in a different cultural context, oh well . . .
Now that with child development understanding of consciousness arrival, non Buddhist cosmology science and little need for hungry ghosts, proud Cods and Fishy tales for the ignorant, we can decide to follow that which retains ignorance and that which cycles us endlessly through a lifetime of empty or dead end [pun intended] teachings. The teachings have to be reapplied, discarded or used skilfully.
Liberation in this life time or Daffy Duck Dharma? m m m . . . Too harsh? Ah well, my karma will keep me warm when I am born in the hell realm reserved for the wilfully ignorant . . . :wave: .
. . . and now back to 'the Buddha knew everything' incarnating beliefs . . .
@zenff said:
"Not satisfied" is the key here.
I think it is a trap for people who embrace the idea of rebirth and reject samsara.
They may join the anti-life movement and get stuck in some sort of universal aversion.
The “atheist” has an advantage maybe. He has to solve this clinging-to-aversion- problem >or his entire (and only) life will be miserable.
Aversion is a mental affliction and is eliminated in liberation.
Dispassion (not the same as aversion) is not only needed, but is the direct and immediate cause of liberation, without dispassion it is impossible to attain Nirvana/liberation.
And understanding the beginningless suffering of rebirth actually leads to dispassion, leads to Nirvana (see Timsa Sutta quoted below where 30 monks attained arhantship after that discourse)
"Better it is to live one day seeing the rise and fall of things than to live a hundred years without ever seeing the rise and fall of things."
(Dhammapada verse 113)
"What Daniel spoke abt impermance, 成住坏空 (formation, dwelling, decay and dissolution ) of the body...even sore throat is very important...u must learn to deeply treasure this truth and allow dispassion to liberate us. This is most important. We think that we understand but we don't...not even a percent...lol
Dispassion is the cause of unbinding and cessation."
~ Thusness
"[A monk said:] "'Dhamma-teacher, Dhamma-teacher' they say, Lord."
"If, monk, anyone teaches a doctrine of disenchantment[1] with decay-and-death, of dispassion[2] [leading to] its cessation, that suffices for him to be called a monk who teaches Dhamma.[3]
"If anyone has trained himself in this disenchantment with decay-and-death, in dispassion[4] [leading to] its cessation, that suffices for him to be called a monk who is trained in what is in conformity with Dhamma.[5]
"If anyone, through disenchantment with decay-and-death, through dispassion [leading to] its cessation, is liberated from grasping, that suffices for him to be called one who has attained Nibbaana in this life."[6]" - Dhammakathiko Sutta
"1. Bhikkhu Sutta. A monk who knows decay and death, birth, becoming, grasping, craving, etc., their arising, their cessation and the way thereto such a monk stands knocking at the door of Deathlessness." S.ii.43.
"..."The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
"Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of the thirty monks from Pava — through lack of clinging — were released from fermentations." - Timsa Sutta
"...disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.." - Upanisa Sutta
.........
Verse 347: The Story of Theri Khema
While residing at the Veluvana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (347) of this book,
with reference to Queen Khema.
Queen Khema was the chief queen of King Bimbisara. She was very beautiful
and also very proud of her looks and status...
The king wanted her to go to the Veluvana monastery and pay homage to the Buddha.
But she had heard that the Buddha always talked disparagingly about beauty and she
therefore tried to avoid seeing the Buddha.
The king understood her attitude towards the Buddha; he also know how proud she was of
her beauty. So the king ordered his minstrels to sing in praise of the Veluvana monastery,
about its pleasant and peaceful atmosphere, etc. Hearing them, Queen Khema became
interested and decided to set out for the Veluvana monastery.
When Queen Khema arrived at the monastery, the Buddha was expounding the Dhamma to an
audience. By his supernormal power, the Buddha made a very beautiful young lady appear,
sitting not far from him, and fanning him. When Queen Khema came to the audience hall, she
alone saw the beautiful young lady. Comparing the exquisite beauty of the young lady to that
of her own, Khema realized, that her beauty was much inferior to that of the young lady. As
she looked again intently at the young lady her beauty began to fade gradually. In the end,
she saw before her eyes an old decrepit being, which again changed into a corpse, her
stinking body being attacked by maggots. At that instant, Queen Khema realized the
impermanence and worthlessness of beauty.
The Buddha knowing the state of her mind remarked, "O Khema! Look carefully at this
decaying body, which is built around a skeleton of bones and is subject to disease and decay.
Look carefully at the body, which is thought of so highly by the foolish. Look at the
worthlessness of the beauty of this young girl." After hearing this, Queen Khema attained
Sotapatti Fruition.
Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
Verse 347. Beings who are infatuated with lust, fall back into the Stream of craving they have
generated themselves, just as a spider does in the web it has spun. The Wise, cutting off the bond
of craving, walk on resolutely, leaving, all pains (dukkha) behind.
At the end of the discourse Queen Khema attained Arahatship and was admitted to the
Order and became the Chief Female Disciple of the Buddha.
"Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.
"And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.
"And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver [2] are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.
"And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search.
As we know, the Buddha was brought up with a belief in heaven and so went there to learn from the angels . . . oops . . . no he was born in a different cultural context, oh well . . .
Now that with child development understanding of consciousness arrival, non Buddhist cosmology science and little need for hungry ghosts, proud Cods and Fishy tales for the ignorant, we can decide to follow that which retains ignorance and that which cycles us endlessly through a lifetime of empty or dead end [pun intended] teachings. The teachings have to be reapplied, discarded or used skilfully.
Liberation in this life time or Daffy Duck Dharma? m m m . . . Too harsh? Ah well, my karma will keep me warm when I am born in the hell realm reserved for the wilfully ignorant . . . :wave: .
. . . and now back to 'the Buddha knew everything' incarnating beliefs . . .
If you do not accept the basic teachings of Buddha, then what's the point of (pretending to) practice his teaching?
Non-Buddhist teachings, yoga, secular meditation and even clinical mindfulness practice or self-help can lead to relaxation and calmness. There is no need for Buddhadharma.
Aversion is a mental affliction and is eliminated in liberation.
Dispassion (not the same as aversion) is not only needed, but is the direct and immediate cause of liberation, without dispassion it is impossible to attain Nirvana/liberation.
....
If you do not accept the basic teachings of Buddha, then what's the point of (pretending to) practice his teaching?
Dispassion is the thing? That is something I can relate to!
“The perfect way is without difficulty, for it avoids picking and choosing. Only when you stop liking and disliking will all be clearly understood.”
Jianzhi Sengcan
Or from the Vimalakirti-sutra:
“O Rahula, do not ask about the goal and benefit of the Holy Life; being without goal and benefit ìs the Holy Life”.
Dispassion - the way I see it – leaves me unconcerned in this life and certainly should leave me unconcerned about past or future lives.
So I don’t see how believing in rebirth (what you think is an essential element of right view) makes a big difference for our motivation and for the level of enlightenment that we could reach.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I don't think disbelieving in rebirth limits our progress. That's why many of us keep saying if it isn't believed it should just be set aside and not worried about. As @xabir said above, aversion is just the flip side to grasping. Dispassion of belief seems the middle way here.
I think it's fun to think about and see a couple of ways that it could happen but would never say it is true or untrue because I don't know for a fact even though it makes complete sense to me.
5 years ago was a different matter. I figured it was another dogmatic approach to keep people in line. A "promised land" or a gift from Santa. Wishful thinking.
But then I took my self back out of the equation and it seemed like a no-brainer (pun somewhat intended)
I wonder if I will think it's true in another 5 years.
@xabir All you're doing is repeating that traditionally Buddhism includes a belief in reincarnation, and that many traditional Buddhists today still believe in it. You're not telling us anything we don't already know. I am envious of your scholarship, by the way. You've dedicated a lot of time to studying the Dharma. Yes, some of the traditional masters claim to have remembered past lives. So what? That doesn't mean they actually lived them. Or are you saying Masters are incapable of being wrong?
But here's a huge difference between how we approach the Dharma. I don't claim that because someone disagrees that emptiness must trump a belief in literal reincarnation, that means they're practicing an inferior form of Buddhism. Yet you tell me that because I claim a belief in reincarnation was not necessary for me to comprehend the Dharma, I am not a good Buddhist. I'm Buddhist-lite or some such.
I've wondered what it is about the need to feel immortal, that even Buddhists tapdance around their own understanding of impermanence and the self to invent some method that our consciousness manages to live forever?
At any rate, we're simply not talking the same language. I feel like I'm in the debate Master Seung was once invited to, where the old Zen Master pulled out an orange and showed it to the visiting Rinpoche and asked him, "What is this?" A simple Zen test of understanding. The Rinpoche turned to his attendants, and said, "Hasn't this man ever seen an orange before?"
" Yet you tell me that because I claim a belief in reincarnation was not necessary for me to comprehend the Dharma"
Understanding rebirth is necessary to comprehend dharma since the beginningless suffering from samsara and need to end rebirth etc is a core principle of Dharma.
", I am not a good Buddhist. I'm Buddhist-lite or some such."
I think labeling people is not necessary. But the term 'Dharma-lite' is actually quite applicable to a particular trend of teachings, since this trend is about trying to get something out of Buddha's teaching but never really understand the full import of it. It is watered down dharma about how to live more happily. It does not really offer anything novel beyond some mundane self-help advices or relaxation techniques. It aims for some immediate benefits and eschews the need for hardcore practice aimed at removing specific root causes that drives the cycles of samsara.
"I've wondered what it is about the need to feel immortal, that even Buddhists tapdance around their own understanding of impermanence and the self to invent some method that our consciousness manages to live forever?"
Buddhists do not love being immortal, Buddhists want to put an end to rebirth. If there is no rebirth, then there is no point for Buddhism, since everyone enters 'Nirvana' at death. 'Living forever' is not a Buddhist goal.
C'mon now. Understanding rebirth is necessary to comprehend Dharma?
How does that happen?
Now you are sounding like someone who might say that believing in Jesus guarantees you a place in heaven.
You can read about it. You can think about it. You can believe in it. Understand it? Please explain.
@robot said:
C'mon now. Understanding rebirth is necessary to comprehend Dharma?
How does that happen?
Now you are sounding like someone who might say that believing in Jesus guarantees you a place in heaven.
You can read about it. You can think about it. You can believe in it. Understand it? Please explain.
When I was a Catholic, I knew one parishioner who never questioned what the priest or the Pope said. We said she belonged to the "hook, line, and sinker order of Catholicism".
@xabir said:
If you do not accept the basic teachings of Buddha, then what's the point of (pretending to) practice his teaching?
>
There's no need to accept that there are 31 realms of existence, of that hell is located under the Himalayas, or other faith-based teachings, in order to benefit from the 4 NT's, the 8-Fold Path, meditation, mindfulness, practicing compassion and the Middle Way, and other principles the Buddha taught. Many people the world over gain benefit from a more secular Buddhist practice, and that's ok.
:om: .
Comments
I can't let that go without comment
Though it might be better if we did.
yep. I tried. I told my fingers, "Fingers, you're only covering old territory we've been through many times before. Why don't you find more useful things to do this morning?"
Fingers ignored me. So it's not my fault.
@Cinorjer
I am not sure who you are trying to convince but rebirth does not conflict with the way the universe works at a all. Not even a little bit.
It may conflict with personal intuition regarding scientific findings but not the findings themselves. The conservation of energy has no loop holes as far as I am aware so absolutely everything gets recycled. Black holes eat light and white holes (quasars) spit it out.
It is likely wiser to say that rebirth goes against your personal understanding than to say it goes against how the universe works because for all we know, the known universe is also just a speck compared to the actual universe which could include countless so called "big bangs".
It could be wiser still to say your understanding of rebirth goes against how the universe works. Afterall, you assume rebirth and/or reincarnation posits a universe designed for our benefit when it most certainly does not.
It took millions of years for the brain to evolve enough to be able to put this kind of thought together and become as aware as we are. There is also seeming infinite space and so this planet likely isn't alone in having sentient beings.
Is there a Buddhist school anywhere that teaches there is a first cause? I thought it was usually dependant origination or inter-being.
Swapping names is what got us into this mess.
"We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself"
-- Carl Sagan
I would indeed say it is just the universe but not that it's responsible. To be responsible is to be aware and to be honest, I think we're still mostly running on instinct.
To me, instinct is an indicator of a kind of rebirth.
And you have a good day as well.
@Cinojer Actually, the first new age teachings I have personally read was already a full book and extremely well developed and that was around 1920 and I have books from 1840 which also describe many of the concepts.
The mayans have said this and that was a looong time ago. They have said this event would start at 2012 and it does correlate with more and more people meditating, questioning world views and revolution breaking out more and more.
Don't you notice the gradual shift in the world more and more? I do and it's fascinating.
New age just carries this whole stereotype of hippies sky high on acid or similar views so I generally dislike the concept.
All I know is that these books describe processes and laws of nature which are only being discovered by science today. It hints that the subjective spiritual nature is just as effective and should not be disregarded as hocus pocus. Everything is magical until scientifically proven for most people.
United nations is as well a new age organization with mainly spiritual objectives and are actively striving towards maintaining and gently aiding in the shift.
More information on this can be found here: http://www.aquaac.org/un/found.html
Can I use that as part of my .Sig?
Frikking AWESOME, Norm!
It might make a good koan.
We apply the suttra, but we don't apply our minds as you suggest - at least not without guidance from the suttras we try to analyse
We apply the specific criteria in the suttra to our analysis.
That's the criterian endorsed by the Buddha
I'm going to give it up for Lent.
I don't have a stake in this either way because if it happens, I still won't be there.
It just makes me scratch my head when people say it goes against current scientific understanding. We simply don't know enough about consciousness yet to say what exactly happens so to say it can not be recycled seems dogmatic especially when virtually everything else is.
And what about instinct and natural selection? Why does nature allow for that which is most beneficial? Why does an infant have instinct?
I don't know anyone that believes in rebirth or reincarnation that thinks the individual survives after death so I still don't know why people want to explain it away so badly.
The concept doesn't have to include the magical "woo woo" thinking like many that rail against it figure.
I am not sure that I could be capable of applying sutras to sutras without any intervention of the mind as you do but fortunately I mostly read suttas and only read a few sutras on occasion and will therefore forgo the suggested exercise.
Thanks for you benevolent instruction all the same.
/Victor
Quite right. For all the railing we hear, about something like rebirth, is as if science had actually weighed in on the subject. It hasn't. No study, so findings, no review, nothing.
The truth is, we are completely on our own, and being that way, hiding our opinion behind what we incorrectly claim science supports, seems a bit strange to me.
Excellent example. Noone will deny that we have instincts, yet noone can say where instinct resides or how we aquire them. Contrasted with ideas such as rebirth, it's peculiar that we don't beat ourselves up over the subject, the way we do over rebirth.
Same here. I don't know of a single Buddhist that harbors that belief, either, and I know a lot of Buddhists. I'm sure there are those that do and I'd appreciate it if those who rail against such beliefs take it up with them.
Thankfully, Buddhism isn't about beliefs. It's about practice. What I believe about rebirth makes absolutely no difference. My practice does.
The Buddha taught a Self that is the Buddhanature inherent in everyone. Before realizing the greater Self, the illusion of the lesser, grasping "self" needs to be realized.
Just curious, @zenff, since this was the last of his teachings, before his death, considered an important Mahayana teaching, do you know why Zen doesn't teach this? Or does it?
As far as I could find, his last teaching was this:
"Behold, O monks, this is my advice to you. All component things in the world are changeable. They are not lasting. Work hard to gain your own salvation."
Which seems to contradict your assertion that he taught about a "greater self".
All things in the world are changeable. No enduring self. That's the way I read it.
It's the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, teaching that the True Self is Buddhanature. He also teaches that Buddhanature (True Self), once realized, is permanent. It's sometimes called "the Eternal Self".
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/
http://www.bu.ac.th/knowledgecenter/epaper/jan_june2010/pdf/Page_47.pdf. (w/commentary)
All component things in the world...But a greater self would be none other than the world in its entirety. That's just my guess.
What is there to save in light of impermanence?
I don't buy it. The whole ball of wax is no less empty for being lumped together.
At times like this, the two truths comes in handy.
i will try to find the talk and send it
there are several talks and i do not remember exactly which talk (the date) that i mentioned in this thread
@federica, as soon as i could find the talk i will try to translate it and send
may be if i forward the link to @victorious he would do it
any way i will try to translate it because i know if i can do it and send to other people it will be a meritorious deed
thanks for showing me another good work that i can use my time
I personally know many seasoned and enlightened practitioners who remembered their past lives in deep meditation -- upekkha in this forum is just one of them.
I do not doubt the existence of rebirth, and I think if one is to go deeply into dharma, it is indispensible.
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/approaching_buddhism/introduction/dharma_lite.html
"Dharma Lite" Versus
"The Real Thing" Dharma
Alexander Berzin
March 2002
The Importance of Rebirth
Tibetan Buddhism follows the Indian tradition and all Indian traditions take for granted belief in rebirth. Even if traditional Buddhist seekers do not have a deep understanding of what takes rebirth or how rebirth works, still they have grown up with the idea of rebirth as a cultural given. They need merely to have their understandings refined, but do not need to become convinced in the existence of rebirth. Therefore, texts on the graded stages of the path (lam-rim) do not even mention the topic of gaining conviction in the existence of rebirth.
Without rebirth, the discussion of mind having no beginning and no end becomes meaningless. Without beginningless and endless mind, the entire presentation of karma falls apart. This is because the karmic results of our actions most frequently do not ripen in the same lifetime in which we commit the actions. Without the presentation of karmic cause and effect over the span of many lifetimes, the discussion of the voidness of cause and effect and of dependent arising likewise falls apart.
Moreover, in terms of the three scopes of lam-rim motivation, how can we sincerely aim for benefiting future lives without belief in the existence of future lives? How can we sincerely aim for gaining liberation from uncontrollably recurring rebirth (samsara) without belief in rebirth? How can we sincerely aim for enlightenment and the ability to help others gain liberation from rebirth without belief that rebirth is a fact?
In terms of bodhichitta meditation, how can we sincerely recognize all beings as having been our mothers in previous lives without believing in previous lives? In terms of anuttarayoga tantra, how can we sincerely meditate in analogy with death, bardo, and rebirth to purify ourselves of uncontrollably experiencing them if we do not believe that bardo and rebirth occur?
Thus, it is clearly evident that rebirth is a cornerstone for a large and crucial portion of the Dharma teachings.
"Dharma-Lite" and "The Real Thing" Dharma
Most Westerners come to Dharma without prior belief in rebirth. Many approach the study and practice of Dharma as a method for improving the quality of this lifetime, especially in terms of overcoming psychological and emotional problems. This attitude reduces Dharma to an Asian form of psychotherapy.
I have coined the term Dharma-Lite for this approach to Buddhist Dharma, analogous to "CocaCola-Lite." It is a weakened version, not as strong as "The Real Thing." The traditional approach to Dharma – which includes not only discussion of rebirth, but also the presentation of the hells and the rest of the six realms of existence – I have termed The Real Thing Dharma.
Two Ways to Practice Dharma-Lite
There are two ways to practice Dharma-Lite.
We may practice it with acknowledgment of the importance of rebirth in Buddhism and the sincere intention to study the accurate teachings on it. Thus, we aim to improve this lifetime with the Dharma methods merely as a steppingstone on the way to working to improve our future rebirths and to gain liberation and enlightenment. Thus, Dharma-Lite becomes a preliminary step on the graded path to enlightenment, a step prior to the initial scope. Such an approach is completely fair to the Buddhist tradition. It does not call Dharma-Lite "The Real Thing."
We may practice it with the recognition that Dharma-Lite is not only the actual Dharma, but also the most appropriate and skillful form for Western Buddhism to take. Such an approach shortchanges and is grossly unfair to the Buddhist tradition. It easily leads to an attitude of cultural arrogance.
Therefore, we need to proceed with great care if we find that, at our present level of spiritual development and understanding, Dharma-Lite is the drink for us.
Schematic Summary of Dharma-Lite
Buddhism becomes Dharma-Lite when
the aim is to improve only in this life;
the student has little or no understanding of the Buddhist teachings on rebirth;
consequently, the student has neither belief nor interest in future lives;
even if the student believes in rebirth, he or she does not accept the existence of the six realms of rebirth;
the Dharma teacher avoids discussion of rebirth or, even if he or she discusses rebirth, avoids discussion of the hells. The teacher reduces the six realms to human psychological experiences.
Schematic Summary of The Real Thing Dharma
The Real Thing Dharma is the authentic traditional practice of Buddhism, in which
the student at least acknowledges the importance of rebirth on the spiritual path and has the sincere wish to gain a correct understanding of it;
the student aims either for liberation from uncontrollably recurring rebirth or for enlightenment and the ability to help all others gain liberation;
even if the student aims for improving future lives, this is merely as a provisional step on the path to gaining liberation or enlightenment;
even if the student aims for improving this life, this is merely as a provisional step on the path to improving future lives and gaining liberation or enlightenment.
Pages with Similar Content:
Comparison of the "Dharma-Lite" and "Real Thing Dharma" Versions of Lam-rim
Approaching the Dharma in a Balanced Way – Session Two: Dharma-Lite vs. Hard-Core Dharma
Self-Transformation through the Lam-rim Graded Stages (video + audio + transcript) (multipart text)
Distinguishing Dharma from Asian Culture
Elaboration of “Approaches to the Dharma – Intellectual, Emotional and Devotional”
The Buddhist Explanation of Rebirth – Part One: The Place of Rebirth in Buddhism and the Topic of Mental Continuums
The Importance of Understanding Rebirth and Believing in It
Listening to, Thinking about, and Meditating on the Dharma – Session Two: Listening to the Dharma Teachings
I also wrote previously:
Those who strip out rebirth and karma are stripping out the basis for practicing for liberation. That is, they only experience the meagre benefits of calm abiding in their meditation, but they will never experience the benefits that the wisdom of dharma has to offer which leads towards the liberation from afflictions (passion, aggression and delusion) - the causes of samsara and rebirth. All they want will be some inner peace, but they will never get to the true import and goal of Buddhadharma which is Nirvana.
Since all they have is one life (a.k.a. 'YOLO'), there is no need to care about future life at all, other than to just enjoy one's life in a hedonistic way. Meditation is merely just a means for them to experience some relaxation.
When my spiritual mentor, lets just call him X because he likes anonymity, recalled numberless past lives and faces in his meditation samadhi one day long long time ago, he got sick of it and realized the necessity to be liberated. He also got the sense that this life is really not very important at all (other than to practice, that is), what used to be very important turns out to be quite meaningless.
Got another time long long time ago, King Yama (lord of the death, a.k.a 阎罗王) and another spirit were speaking to each other when he was meditating - and both of them were saying that he has not overcome death. He did not even know who 'yama' was at that time, but he heard a voice addressing Yama and Yama said oh, so that was the one who has not yet overcome death. When he came out of meditation he went to find out what 'yama' is. Why did yama appear in his meditation? I do not know, maybe to serve as a reminder. He was already quite experienced and had certain realization at that time, but it is always good to remind ourselves that the path is long ahead and not get carried away.
If we are real practitioners of Buddhadharma who accept rebirth and karma, we must not kid ourselves, death is our real test. Until we have perfected our practice and attained complete liberation, we must never be satisfied with some results in practice, we must never satisfied with our realization, much less what those atheist get out of meditation (some minor relaxation or peace, which is meagre). On the other hand if there is no rebirth, then everyone will achieve 'Nirvana' at death without practice so one can just relax and take things easy and just enjoy life as it is, therefore such a view is fundamentally at odds with the Buddhadharma and is totally not appropriate for real practitioners. Thinking about death and rebirth everyday will instill a sense of urgency and necessity for practice which will never come if we reject rebirth.
X also said in 2006:
"Life is like a passing cloud, when it comes to an end, a hundred years is like yesterday, like a snap of a finger. If it is only about one life, it really doesnt matter whether we are enlightened. The insight that the Blessed One has is not just about one life; countless lives we suffered, life after life, unending. Such is suffering.
It is not about logic or science and there is really no point arguing in this scientific age. Take steps in practice and experience the truth of Buddhas words. Of the 3 dharma seals, the truth of suffering to me is most difficult to experience in depth.
May all take Buddhas words seriously."
Those that hold the wrong view that there is no rebirth, are opponents to the arahants who have recalled their past lives and declared the existence of rebirth. Holders of wrong view cannot be expected to attain the goal, since right view is the forerunner of the noble eightfold path which leads to Nirvana.
Buddha:
"Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he is says that 'There is no next world,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is no next world,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view."
...
Someone wrote: "It is not true that if one rejects the notion of rebirth one will necessarily take the easy way out and slack off in one’s practice on the paths of purifications."
I responded:
I'm not saying that an atheist will be slack at what they passionately do. Of course an atheist can still be practicing meditation quite diligently (just like an atheist can be a diligent yoga practitioner [modern yoga is usually stripped off from its Samkhya roots which is fundamentally spiritual aiming to attain self-realization of Purusha, having stripped off its spiritual context modern yoga is often left with a set of watered-down mental and physical asanas or exercises with benefits only on that level], or diligent swimmer, or dancer, etc), but they will never dwell into the true essence of Buddhism, and they will not be so concerned about getting rid of fundamental ignorance and delusion and samsara in its entirety. Their main concern is merely for the limited benefits of here-now. If meditation makes their life happier, they are satisfied with it, who cares whether there is rebirth or one has 'overcome rebirth'. Therefore they are satisfied with whatever meagre benefits they have (even if they had some limited insights as a result of practicing meditation). Therefore, they are 'slack' when it comes to practicing for the aim of overcoming fundamental root ignorance and samsara.
If an Atheist were to ask me instructions on meditation and dharma, I will not say "oh you should not practice meditation since you are atheist". Of course not. I will talk about meditation and dharma to them and encourage them to find some benefit from the teachings. But lets not pretend they are getting anywhere close to what Buddhadharma is truly about if they do not even accept the need to overcome samsara.
Since they are only concerned with some limited here-and-now benefits out of watered-down mindfulness and relaxation practices (found even in common medical/psychotherapy and self-help), they are not concerned with something like 'the ultimate Nirvana that is liberation from samsara and rebirth' (though they may misperceive what they experience to be so called 'liberation'). They may not even believe that it is possible to truly put an end to the three poisons of passion, aggression and delusion. (Putting an end as in terminating the defilements, not merely a transient shamatha state where defilements are suppressed) They may think that ending passion, aggression and delusion is a thing of myth, that at most what we can experience is some limited mental peace and equanimity while passion, aggression and delusion continue to arise though in a more controlled way. Even if they were to gain some meagre insight and benefits, they will never take it all the way to put an end to samsaric birth and death.
A true Buddhist practitioner is not satisfied with anything short of the end of rebirth and all samsaric afflictions driving birth and death. A true Buddhist practitioner is not satisfied with any meagre insights or benefits short of the direct knowledge: "Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, there is no more coming to any state of being."
In short: atheists can be passionate about their so called 'practice', but they generally do not even believe in what purification truly entails - or their idea of purification is very shallow and do not get at the roots of completely overcoming the defilements that result in samsara. They may claim to practice for purification but their purification is very limited.
As what Buddha said of Devadatta:
(Devadatta Sutta)
...and although there was more that should have been done, he stopped halfway through gaining a trifling attainment of distinction...
...Having thought himself his equal,
He assaulted the Tathagata
And went to the four-doored frightful palace
Avici the Unremitting Hell...
Loppon Namdrol/Malcolm Smith:
Whoever is attached to a result for this life, is not a Dharma person.
The purpose of Dharma is liberation, not feeling better in this life. The purpose of Dharma is not the cultivation of mundane compassion, and so on.
The purpose of Dharma is to control afflictions, then overcome them, and finally, to attain a state of total omniscience and freedom.
This is quite the introductory statement! It says Tibetan Buddhism follows Hinduism (not Buddhism). So therefore belief in rebirth is foundational to Tibetan Buddhism.
This is specific to TB and has no bearing on other schools of Buddhism, none of which follow Hinduism.
The purpose of Dhamma is up to the individual.
Tibetan Buddhism does not follow Hinduism pertaining to matters of view. Rebirth is foundational to all schools of Buddhism and is taught in the Pali suttas.
The purpose of Dhamma is up to the individual, however, the Buddhadharma (Buddha's dharma) as written in the suttas and expressed by Buddha has a specific goal, and whether people wish to follow it or not is up to them.
Thank you for allowing us some freedom of thought.
Quotes from the Pali, please? Some sutras are contested as to authenticity, and conflict with other sutras (like the quote in DhammaDragon's post at the beginning of the thread). But this is an argument that's unwinnable without studying Pali and reading the sutras. And even sutra scholars disagree as to which passages are "early" and which are "late", and therefore suspect.
Berzin says TB follows Hinduism on the matter of rebirth.
I already quoted one in my post:
Apannaka Sutta
"Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he is says that 'There is no next world,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is no next world,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view."
If you have even studied the Pali Canon, you would know that the teaching of rebirth is a core teaching that is taught all over the place -- not in one, or two, but so many of them. The Pali Canon is the "early teachings" and is an undisputed source of teaching for all traditions.
Knowledge of past lives is one of the three knowledges that Buddha gained on the day of his enlightenment -- rebirth, karma that leads to the different modes of birth, and the ending of defilements.
The Buddha's teaching on rebirth is very consistent throughout the Pali Canon even in the earliest teachings and not only in one or two suttas, and there is no reason to reject it as being some 'late additions' at all.
You can see just how many suttas where Buddha talked about recalling his past lives:
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=sutta+'There+I+had+such+a+name,+belonged+to+such+a+clan,+had+such+an+appearance.+Such+was+my+food,+such+my+experience+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gfe_rd=cr&ei=m7L6U8a9LMjC8geq-4HwBg
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details."
I have read thousands of pages of suttas, and it is clear as day that anyone who has done that much of reading cannot possibly dispute that rebirth is a central doctrine of Buddha.
But for many of us, the question is whether rebirth actually occurs. Particularly those of us who lean toward secular Buddhism.
Sure. I understand due to the popularity of materialistic views, it can take a leap of faith. But we have to understand that there is nothing in science that disproof rebirth other than faulty conjectures. For example, seeing a correlation between brainwave activity and mental states does not therefore imply that mind is solely produced by brain and dies with it.
Materialist scientists suggest that everything is due to brain activities, but there are many counter arguments and other cases suggestive otherwise: http://www.salon.com/2012/04/21/near_death_explained/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
Then there are quite convincing studies done by Dr. Ian Stevensons, etc, and countless reports by meditators who can recall their past lives just as Buddha did.
Even so, these all may not convince everyone. But the Buddha did not set out to prove rebirth and his realizations through objective science. A leap of faith is required, although not necessarily "blind faith". Yes, don't stop at faith, but faith is indispensible in the path.
On the topic of faith i posted in DC before:
http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com.au/2014/08/literal-rebirth-and-necessity-of-faith.html
...The point I am making is that we have three authorities in Buddhism, as Malcolm stated,
"Classically in India, materialists (but not Buddhists and so forth) only accepted direct perception as authoritative. However, the Buddha held that there were three authorities: direct perception, inference, and testimony of reliable witnesses."
"...So what are the parameters of Buddhist logic, or "pramana"? They are that there are three valid forms of authority: direct perception, inference, and testimony of special witnesses, such as the Buddha.
Dharmakirti's entire project is to prove that Buddha is a special witness, without recourse to sutras and so on. If one can show that indeed the Buddha is a special witness, then it follows that one can heed what the Buddha says without reservation. You should get Jackson's book "Is Enlightenment Possible" which deals with this very issue, and includes a logical defense of rebirth..."
Personally I am not someone who readily accepts everything being told, however, I have come to have great confidence and great acceptance of the Buddha's teachings.
See, this is why, in Buddhism, 'faith' is one of the five powers that leads to awakening (five powers: faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom). Buddhism is something that utilizes faith as part of its practice, we do not just throw out faith and rely solely on direct perception, nor do we solely rely on faith throwing out direct perception, but rather, we utilize faith and the five powers to gain direct perception of the truths that the Buddha taught. This is important because not all truths are readibly available to our immediate five senses - for example, certain truths that can be seen require the development of samadhi.
How can we know or judge whether someone is a 'special witness'? Well, it depends on your own discernment really, we have to exercise our wisdom to judge and discern..." (continued in URL)
Is he an awakened, reliable, experienced practitioner, man of integrity, speaking only from experience and not conjectures, etc? To me, Buddha is, and so is many other enlightened person I'm so fortunate to know in this life.
A true Buddhist practitioner is not satisfied with anything short of the end of rebirth and all samsaric afflictions driving birth and death. A true Buddhist practitioner is not satisfied with any meagre insights or benefits short of the direct knowledge: "Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, there is no more coming to any state of being."
"Not satisfied" is the key here.
I think it is a trap for people who embrace the idea of rebirth and reject samsara.
They may join the anti-life movement and get stuck in some sort of universal aversion.
The “atheist” has an advantage maybe. He has to solve this clinging-to-aversion- problem or his entire (and only) life will be miserable.
As we all know from Buddhist dogma, Mount Meru is the center of the universe . . . or maybe not . . .
http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhisthistory/a/mountmeru.htm
As we know, the Buddha was brought up with a belief in heaven and so went there to learn from the angels . . . oops . . . no he was born in a different cultural context, oh well . . .
Now that with child development understanding of consciousness arrival, non Buddhist cosmology science and little need for hungry ghosts, proud Cods and Fishy tales for the ignorant, we can decide to follow that which retains ignorance and that which cycles us endlessly through a lifetime of empty or dead end [pun intended] teachings. The teachings have to be reapplied, discarded or used skilfully.
Liberation in this life time or Daffy Duck Dharma? m m m . . . Too harsh? Ah well, my karma will keep me warm when I am born in the hell realm reserved for the wilfully ignorant . . . :wave: .
. . . and now back to 'the Buddha knew everything' incarnating beliefs . . .
Aversion is a mental affliction and is eliminated in liberation.
Dispassion (not the same as aversion) is not only needed, but is the direct and immediate cause of liberation, without dispassion it is impossible to attain Nirvana/liberation.
And understanding the beginningless suffering of rebirth actually leads to dispassion, leads to Nirvana (see Timsa Sutta quoted below where 30 monks attained arhantship after that discourse)
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2014/08/impermanence-dispassion-liberation-and.html
"Better it is to live one day seeing the rise and fall of things than to live a hundred years without ever seeing the rise and fall of things."
(Dhammapada verse 113)
"What Daniel spoke abt impermance, 成住坏空 (formation, dwelling, decay and dissolution ) of the body...even sore throat is very important...u must learn to deeply treasure this truth and allow dispassion to liberate us. This is most important. We think that we understand but we don't...not even a percent...lol
Dispassion is the cause of unbinding and cessation."
~ Thusness
"[A monk said:] "'Dhamma-teacher, Dhamma-teacher' they say, Lord."
"If, monk, anyone teaches a doctrine of disenchantment[1] with decay-and-death, of dispassion[2] [leading to] its cessation, that suffices for him to be called a monk who teaches Dhamma.[3]
"If anyone has trained himself in this disenchantment with decay-and-death, in dispassion[4] [leading to] its cessation, that suffices for him to be called a monk who is trained in what is in conformity with Dhamma.[5]
"If anyone, through disenchantment with decay-and-death, through dispassion [leading to] its cessation, is liberated from grasping, that suffices for him to be called one who has attained Nibbaana in this life."[6]" - Dhammakathiko Sutta
"1. Bhikkhu Sutta. A monk who knows decay and death, birth, becoming, grasping, craving, etc., their arising, their cessation and the way thereto such a monk stands knocking at the door of Deathlessness." S.ii.43.
"..."The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
"Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of the thirty monks from Pava — through lack of clinging — were released from fermentations." - Timsa Sutta
"...disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.." - Upanisa Sutta
.........
Verse 347: The Story of Theri Khema
While residing at the Veluvana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (347) of this book,
with reference to Queen Khema.
Queen Khema was the chief queen of King Bimbisara. She was very beautiful
and also very proud of her looks and status...
The king wanted her to go to the Veluvana monastery and pay homage to the Buddha.
But she had heard that the Buddha always talked disparagingly about beauty and she
therefore tried to avoid seeing the Buddha.
The king understood her attitude towards the Buddha; he also know how proud she was of
her beauty. So the king ordered his minstrels to sing in praise of the Veluvana monastery,
about its pleasant and peaceful atmosphere, etc. Hearing them, Queen Khema became
interested and decided to set out for the Veluvana monastery.
When Queen Khema arrived at the monastery, the Buddha was expounding the Dhamma to an
audience. By his supernormal power, the Buddha made a very beautiful young lady appear,
sitting not far from him, and fanning him. When Queen Khema came to the audience hall, she
alone saw the beautiful young lady. Comparing the exquisite beauty of the young lady to that
of her own, Khema realized, that her beauty was much inferior to that of the young lady. As
she looked again intently at the young lady her beauty began to fade gradually. In the end,
she saw before her eyes an old decrepit being, which again changed into a corpse, her
stinking body being attacked by maggots. At that instant, Queen Khema realized the
impermanence and worthlessness of beauty.
The Buddha knowing the state of her mind remarked, "O Khema! Look carefully at this
decaying body, which is built around a skeleton of bones and is subject to disease and decay.
Look carefully at the body, which is thought of so highly by the foolish. Look at the
worthlessness of the beauty of this young girl." After hearing this, Queen Khema attained
Sotapatti Fruition.
Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
Verse 347. Beings who are infatuated with lust, fall back into the Stream of craving they have
generated themselves, just as a spider does in the web it has spun. The Wise, cutting off the bond
of craving, walk on resolutely, leaving, all pains (dukkha) behind.
At the end of the discourse Queen Khema attained Arahatship and was admitted to the
Order and became the Chief Female Disciple of the Buddha.
Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A.,
Burma Pitaka Association, Rangoon, Burma 1986.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html
"Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.
"And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.
"And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver [2] are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.
"And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search.
If you do not accept the basic teachings of Buddha, then what's the point of (pretending to) practice his teaching?
Non-Buddhist teachings, yoga, secular meditation and even clinical mindfulness practice or self-help can lead to relaxation and calmness. There is no need for Buddhadharma.
So have you filled in your secular Buddhist application form yet?
Aversion is a mental affliction and is eliminated in liberation.
Dispassion (not the same as aversion) is not only needed, but is the direct and immediate cause of liberation, without dispassion it is impossible to attain Nirvana/liberation.
....
If you do not accept the basic teachings of Buddha, then what's the point of (pretending to) practice his teaching?
Dispassion is the thing? That is something I can relate to!
Jianzhi Sengcan
Or from the Vimalakirti-sutra:
Dispassion - the way I see it – leaves me unconcerned in this life and certainly should leave me unconcerned about past or future lives.
So I don’t see how believing in rebirth (what you think is an essential element of right view) makes a big difference for our motivation and for the level of enlightenment that we could reach.
I don't think disbelieving in rebirth limits our progress. That's why many of us keep saying if it isn't believed it should just be set aside and not worried about. As @xabir said above, aversion is just the flip side to grasping. Dispassion of belief seems the middle way here.
I think it's fun to think about and see a couple of ways that it could happen but would never say it is true or untrue because I don't know for a fact even though it makes complete sense to me.
5 years ago was a different matter. I figured it was another dogmatic approach to keep people in line. A "promised land" or a gift from Santa. Wishful thinking.
But then I took my self back out of the equation and it seemed like a no-brainer (pun somewhat intended)
I wonder if I will think it's true in another 5 years.
Yes! @lobster - it could be your next "phase" - Werelobster -> YinYana -> Mr. Cushion -> Secular Buddist.
Theravada Buddhism is secular from the beginning.
No need for Form Filling.
It is amazing how many are ignorant of this.
/Victor
Go and tell them that over at the secular Buddhist forum. You might be surprised at the reaction you get.
That's for sure.
@xabir All you're doing is repeating that traditionally Buddhism includes a belief in reincarnation, and that many traditional Buddhists today still believe in it. You're not telling us anything we don't already know. I am envious of your scholarship, by the way. You've dedicated a lot of time to studying the Dharma. Yes, some of the traditional masters claim to have remembered past lives. So what? That doesn't mean they actually lived them. Or are you saying Masters are incapable of being wrong?
But here's a huge difference between how we approach the Dharma. I don't claim that because someone disagrees that emptiness must trump a belief in literal reincarnation, that means they're practicing an inferior form of Buddhism. Yet you tell me that because I claim a belief in reincarnation was not necessary for me to comprehend the Dharma, I am not a good Buddhist. I'm Buddhist-lite or some such.
I've wondered what it is about the need to feel immortal, that even Buddhists tapdance around their own understanding of impermanence and the self to invent some method that our consciousness manages to live forever?
At any rate, we're simply not talking the same language. I feel like I'm in the debate Master Seung was once invited to, where the old Zen Master pulled out an orange and showed it to the visiting Rinpoche and asked him, "What is this?" A simple Zen test of understanding. The Rinpoche turned to his attendants, and said, "Hasn't this man ever seen an orange before?"
Have a nice day.
" Yet you tell me that because I claim a belief in reincarnation was not necessary for me to comprehend the Dharma"
Understanding rebirth is necessary to comprehend dharma since the beginningless suffering from samsara and need to end rebirth etc is a core principle of Dharma.
", I am not a good Buddhist. I'm Buddhist-lite or some such."
I think labeling people is not necessary. But the term 'Dharma-lite' is actually quite applicable to a particular trend of teachings, since this trend is about trying to get something out of Buddha's teaching but never really understand the full import of it. It is watered down dharma about how to live more happily. It does not really offer anything novel beyond some mundane self-help advices or relaxation techniques. It aims for some immediate benefits and eschews the need for hardcore practice aimed at removing specific root causes that drives the cycles of samsara.
"I've wondered what it is about the need to feel immortal, that even Buddhists tapdance around their own understanding of impermanence and the self to invent some method that our consciousness manages to live forever?"
Buddhists do not love being immortal, Buddhists want to put an end to rebirth. If there is no rebirth, then there is no point for Buddhism, since everyone enters 'Nirvana' at death. 'Living forever' is not a Buddhist goal.
C'mon now. Understanding rebirth is necessary to comprehend Dharma?
How does that happen?
Now you are sounding like someone who might say that believing in Jesus guarantees you a place in heaven.
You can read about it. You can think about it. You can believe in it. Understand it? Please explain.
My new take on rebirth:
It happens but don't get hung up on the concept!
When I was a Catholic, I knew one parishioner who never questioned what the priest or the Pope said. We said she belonged to the "hook, line, and sinker order of Catholicism".
>
There's no need to accept that there are 31 realms of existence, of that hell is located under the Himalayas, or other faith-based teachings, in order to benefit from the 4 NT's, the 8-Fold Path, meditation, mindfulness, practicing compassion and the Middle Way, and other principles the Buddha taught. Many people the world over gain benefit from a more secular Buddhist practice, and that's ok.
:om: .
Thank you, Dakini!