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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@SarahT said: "...Perhaps it is too late for some of these folk - they have been too damaged - and society needs to protect itself. But that doesn't stop me from feeling compassion that they are so damaged. Not sure what action I can take - I don't speak the right languages - but I can at least refrain from judging when I have never experienced what they have to drive them to these extremes."
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All of what you said was excellent. We also have to consider just how much of a rush that has to come in the aftermath of such actions, to keep themselves from letting a single careful, introspective thought about it come and wedge its way into their consciousness, and keep their pride intact so that they can keep on justifying those horrendous events.
@SarahT. In many parts of the Islamic world particularly tribal areas young boys learn the Koran by heart. The explanation of what they learn is given by the mullah. Its nothing like religious study as we know it. Students are not asked or invited to share their opinions. Many of them can recite but nor read the Koran. I have seen this.
Buddhists are just people, too, @SarahT Even if we might know we should be compassionate, not everyone is there yet. It's ok. We're all in different places on the path. As I read somewhere, comparison is the thief of joy. It does no good to compare where we are, to where someone else is. Even if we happen to share the same label as Buddhist, Christian, or whatever. On the plus side, people here are learning and changing every day. Most people here are fairly open-minded and know what they believe today might change tomorrow. Most have experienced that. So at least this place is a safe place to discuss such things, and one of the very few places I have ever been online where people are not consistently bullied, attacked, and so on. It allows a lot of growth as a community and as individuals, which is a good thing of course. But try not to compare where you are with someone else, because you are on entirely different paths, at different speeds and not everyone is at the same place. Some might know they should be, but aren't quite there yet. Some still think they shouldn't be there (wherever there is). But if we all thought and believed the same we'd have nothing to talk about!
We can get angry that the Western media labels them as Muslims but the truth is, they have called themselves Muslims and pray to the direction of the Kaaba as we do.
And in our midst, we too have a fair number of young Muslims who have signed up with the militants who call themselves Islamic State in Iraq and Syria to fight fellow Muslims of the Shia persuasion. Some have been killed.
While we try to figure out new security laws to contain these militants when they return, we already have a slew of laws to regulate our lives as Muslims – just like Pakistan and the Talibans when they ran Afghanistan.
We also have an Islamist party that believes the solution to what blights modern life is a criminal law from 6th century Arabia that prescribes whippings, stoning and death by decapitation for major offences.
All in the name of Islam.
We rail against those who kill in the name of Islam but it is fine that we can exact justice using such punishment in the name of Islam?
For the Islamist parties, their brightest minds are put to the task of figuring out Islamic laws and punishment rather than working out rehabilitation, mercy and charity for all.
@lobster said:
The Sufi, Ismaili and Ahmidhya Moslems are often shunned and yet they have teachings and practices based around love, compassion, education and charity that put the Dalai Lama to shame.
If you're saying most Muslims are decent people and we shouldn't demonise Islam, yes of course. But that does nothing to diminish the sense of outrage I feel. I feel we're in danger here of rationalising away the awfulness of what has happened so we can cope with it a bit better.
I'm not pretending that outrage is a skillful way to feel and I'll deal with it, but to me not feeling outrage would be even worse. For me part of it is the sheer obscenity of using a weapon like the AK on children, it fires a heavy 7.62mm round at high velocity, those will punch through 1/4 inch steel plate so imagine what they will do to a child's body.
1
SarahTTime ... space ... joySouth Coast, UKVeteran
@karasti said:
if we all thought and believed the same we'd have nothing to talk about!
Reminds me of Douglas Adams' observation in one of his Hitchhiker books - that humans only talk to stop their brains from working
@SarahT said:
Have been struggling for a while with the condemnation of others I seem to see fairly regularly on this site. It's bad enough that Christians seem to have forgotten that our faith is about unconditional love and nothing but unconditional love, but isn't compassion an essential in the Buddhist philosphy? That was the impression I got from reading HH DL ...
Yes, that seems to be the usual misconception about Buddhist people: that they have to be perfect 24/7, always right speech up the sleeve, smirking compassionately at outrage.
Welcome to the real world where Buddhist people are simple human beings, entitled to be imperfect, lost for words at horror and not always ready to bandy the ultimate compassionate quotation.
I find "Condemnation of others" to be a very strong sentence when applied to the people on this forum.
People have different opinions, sometimes engage in heated exchanges of points of view, in more or less skillful terms, sometimes they don't agree, sometimes they bluntly disagree, but condemnation as in pointing the finger at my neighbour and basking in my self-righteousness, no, I think that's a tad too strong.
I am happy that people with different points of view are allowed to vent their opinions on the forum, even if I don't agree, even if I don't like what they are saying.
We are all learning, faltering our way up the Path and respecting other people's right to falter along the same way.
I am not ashamed to confess that I have a long way to go when coming to terms with horror, especially horror applied on children, and I am happy that I can express my opinion on a forum where people don't expect me to be perfect. Nor sound perfect.
Just be human.
5
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
I agree that 'condemnation' is wayyyy too strong a word for what happens here. I felt a strong reaction when I read it. We're all trying hard to process the painful stuff and conflicts, and it fans the flames to characterize them as worse than they are.
As for Buddhism being about unconditional love and compassion, I'm sure it is but I'm not going to fake what I don't feel. Buddhism is also about acceptance of your state of being in the moment, and if it is burning with rage and disgust and sorrow, then the Buddha would say 'that is'. Acting any other way, or saying anything more acceptable would be a lie, and that's not OK either.
I just feel numb reading about the children stabbed in Queensland. I'm all out of outrage.
The mother of the children has been charged. She killled seven of her own kids and one neice. Their 20 year old brother came home and found them all. Imagine that
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@Bunks said:
The mother of the children has been charged. She killled seven of her own kids and one neice. Their 20 year old brother came home and found them all. Imagine that
>
And it isn't really the first time things this horrific happen - like that woman in Texas years ago, I think she killed 4 of her own? And the school shootings -- so darned many times, it turns out they're on some sort of psychological/psychiatric type drug - antidepressants.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@SarahT is an advocate of bringing Mental illness to public attention, to be acknowledged, recognised, and treated with sympathy, understanding and acceptance, as a reality, not as a stigma, a separation of people, an ostracising trait.... I agree, and wholeheartedly support it too.
There convoluted issues and events which led to this tragedy, may well turn out to be a far bigger indication of social/environmental responsibility, than just the initial factor of "Mother stabs own children then herself."
4
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
@silver said:
And it isn't really the first time things this horrific happen - like that woman in Texas years ago, I think she killed 4 of her own? And the school shootings -- so darned many times, it turns out they're on some sort of psychological/psychiatric type drug - antidepressants.
Andrea Yates (sorry for some reason I can't post a link) is the Texas woman who killed all five of her children one morning. She'd had depression to begin with, and the pregnancies really exacerbated it, causing psychosis. She was very isolated, in a religious community that did not recognize depression as an illness (or recognize it as anything 'real'). The kind of inner hell that lead to her deliberately drowning each child one by one (including an 8 year old who fought to escape) is beyond most of us.
The kid that shot up the gradeschool in Connecticut was previously known to be mentally ill, as was the kid that shot the senator in Texas.
Mental illness does carry a stigma. It's like we need to not just stop at the stigma part, need to not turn away and be courageous enough to look further. At the center of these atrocities is a person who genuinely believes they are doing what needs to be done. That's not all that hard to relate with.
The ISIS 'soldiers' or whatever they're calling themselves genuinely see their actions as the right response, and they are validated right left and center by their fellows. They are still congratulating each other. How does an individual (because the children were shot by individuals) get into such a paradigm that it becomes righteous to kill children?
Our ancestors lived in hunter gatherer societies where children were born and raised in a group environment.
Unfortunately in this day and age women are too often left to raise kids alone with no family or group support.
It's another downfall of the capitalist system......
4
HamsakagoosewhispererPolishing the 'just so'Veteran
Yeah, there is a downside to the 'nuclear family'. Isolation.
I 'live' with my son, DIL, granddaughter and their two same age friends. I have my own house, but we're all on the same property. I LOVE IT. For more reasons than it helps with the bills, and gives them all a break financially. We are a big lumpy family.
This living arrangement is becoming more common, especially since 2008 when the economy went to hell in a handbasket. Kids moved back home, or their parents moved in with them, or a bunch of unrelated 'kids' sharing a house.
I never feel 'alone', which I would be as I'm unmarried and my kids are adults. It's a comfort, even though we are completely independent. I did the 'nuclear family' thing all my life up until now, so it's only now I realize how isolating and lonely the nuclear family can be. Especially when children are young and need constant hands on care. The parents can get to feeling so isolated, out of step.
@Nirvana said:
pegembara, I cannot see your point above clearly. Are you saying that the penalties prescribed by the shariah need revisiting?
Point is there are some Muslims who recognized that the need to make a stand against extremism. They cannot pretend that the problems in the Muslim world are all the result of their mistreatment at the hands of the non Muslims. They too need to take responsibility.
We also have an Islamist party that believes the solution to what blights modern life is a criminal law from 6th century Arabia that prescribes whippings, stoning and death by decapitation for major offences.
Comments
>
All of what you said was excellent. We also have to consider just how much of a rush that has to come in the aftermath of such actions, to keep themselves from letting a single careful, introspective thought about it come and wedge its way into their consciousness, and keep their pride intact so that they can keep on justifying those horrendous events.
@SarahT. In many parts of the Islamic world particularly tribal areas young boys learn the Koran by heart. The explanation of what they learn is given by the mullah. Its nothing like religious study as we know it. Students are not asked or invited to share their opinions. Many of them can recite but nor read the Koran. I have seen this.
Buddhists are just people, too, @SarahT
Even if we might know we should be compassionate, not everyone is there yet. It's ok. We're all in different places on the path. As I read somewhere, comparison is the thief of joy. It does no good to compare where we are, to where someone else is. Even if we happen to share the same label as Buddhist, Christian, or whatever. On the plus side, people here are learning and changing every day. Most people here are fairly open-minded and know what they believe today might change tomorrow. Most have experienced that. So at least this place is a safe place to discuss such things, and one of the very few places I have ever been online where people are not consistently bullied, attacked, and so on. It allows a lot of growth as a community and as individuals, which is a good thing of course. But try not to compare where you are with someone else, because you are on entirely different paths, at different speeds and not everyone is at the same place. Some might know they should be, but aren't quite there yet. Some still think they shouldn't be there (wherever there is). But if we all thought and believed the same we'd have nothing to talk about!
"The way a person does one thing is the way they do everything"
Zen saying
Being kind is everything.
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/islam-needs-heroes-not-zeroes-who-kill-in-its-name
If you're saying most Muslims are decent people and we shouldn't demonise Islam, yes of course. But that does nothing to diminish the sense of outrage I feel. I feel we're in danger here of rationalising away the awfulness of what has happened so we can cope with it a bit better.
I'm not pretending that outrage is a skillful way to feel and I'll deal with it, but to me not feeling outrage would be even worse. For me part of it is the sheer obscenity of using a weapon like the AK on children, it fires a heavy 7.62mm round at high velocity, those will punch through 1/4 inch steel plate so imagine what they will do to a child's body.
Reminds me of Douglas Adams' observation in one of his Hitchhiker books - that humans only talk to stop their brains from working
The sad thing is that as soon as I heard about it I was almost sure they were going to be an indigenous family.
The rate of child abuse and neglect amongst indigenous Australians isnfar greater than non indigenous Australians.
I just don't know what to say.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-19/cairns-stabbing-eight-children-dead-after-manoora-stabbing/5979452
Yes, that seems to be the usual misconception about Buddhist people: that they have to be perfect 24/7, always right speech up the sleeve, smirking compassionately at outrage.
Welcome to the real world where Buddhist people are simple human beings, entitled to be imperfect, lost for words at horror and not always ready to bandy the ultimate compassionate quotation.
I find "Condemnation of others" to be a very strong sentence when applied to the people on this forum.
People have different opinions, sometimes engage in heated exchanges of points of view, in more or less skillful terms, sometimes they don't agree, sometimes they bluntly disagree, but condemnation as in pointing the finger at my neighbour and basking in my self-righteousness, no, I think that's a tad too strong.
I am happy that people with different points of view are allowed to vent their opinions on the forum, even if I don't agree, even if I don't like what they are saying.
We are all learning, faltering our way up the Path and respecting other people's right to falter along the same way.
I am not ashamed to confess that I have a long way to go when coming to terms with horror, especially horror applied on children, and I am happy that I can express my opinion on a forum where people don't expect me to be perfect. Nor sound perfect.
Just be human.
I agree that 'condemnation' is wayyyy too strong a word for what happens here. I felt a strong reaction when I read it. We're all trying hard to process the painful stuff and conflicts, and it fans the flames to characterize them as worse than they are.
As for Buddhism being about unconditional love and compassion, I'm sure it is but I'm not going to fake what I don't feel. Buddhism is also about acceptance of your state of being in the moment, and if it is burning with rage and disgust and sorrow, then the Buddha would say 'that is'. Acting any other way, or saying anything more acceptable would be a lie, and that's not OK either.
I just feel numb reading about the children stabbed in Queensland. I'm all out of outrage.
>
And it isn't really the first time things this horrific happen - like that woman in Texas years ago, I think she killed 4 of her own? And the school shootings -- so darned many times, it turns out they're on some sort of psychological/psychiatric type drug - antidepressants.
@SarahT is an advocate of bringing Mental illness to public attention, to be acknowledged, recognised, and treated with sympathy, understanding and acceptance, as a reality, not as a stigma, a separation of people, an ostracising trait.... I agree, and wholeheartedly support it too.
There convoluted issues and events which led to this tragedy, may well turn out to be a far bigger indication of social/environmental responsibility, than just the initial factor of "Mother stabs own children then herself."
Andrea Yates (sorry for some reason I can't post a link) is the Texas woman who killed all five of her children one morning. She'd had depression to begin with, and the pregnancies really exacerbated it, causing psychosis. She was very isolated, in a religious community that did not recognize depression as an illness (or recognize it as anything 'real'). The kind of inner hell that lead to her deliberately drowning each child one by one (including an 8 year old who fought to escape) is beyond most of us.
The kid that shot up the gradeschool in Connecticut was previously known to be mentally ill, as was the kid that shot the senator in Texas.
Mental illness does carry a stigma. It's like we need to not just stop at the stigma part, need to not turn away and be courageous enough to look further. At the center of these atrocities is a person who genuinely believes they are doing what needs to be done. That's not all that hard to relate with.
The ISIS 'soldiers' or whatever they're calling themselves genuinely see their actions as the right response, and they are validated right left and center by their fellows. They are still congratulating each other. How does an individual (because the children were shot by individuals) get into such a paradigm that it becomes righteous to kill children?
Our ancestors lived in hunter gatherer societies where children were born and raised in a group environment.
Unfortunately in this day and age women are too often left to raise kids alone with no family or group support.
It's another downfall of the capitalist system......
Yeah, there is a downside to the 'nuclear family'. Isolation.
I 'live' with my son, DIL, granddaughter and their two same age friends. I have my own house, but we're all on the same property. I LOVE IT. For more reasons than it helps with the bills, and gives them all a break financially. We are a big lumpy family.
This living arrangement is becoming more common, especially since 2008 when the economy went to hell in a handbasket. Kids moved back home, or their parents moved in with them, or a bunch of unrelated 'kids' sharing a house.
I never feel 'alone', which I would be as I'm unmarried and my kids are adults. It's a comfort, even though we are completely independent. I did the 'nuclear family' thing all my life up until now, so it's only now I realize how isolating and lonely the nuclear family can be. Especially when children are young and need constant hands on care. The parents can get to feeling so isolated, out of step.
@pegembara, I cannot see your point above clearly. Are you saying that the penalties prescribed by the shariah need revisiting?
Point is there are some Muslims who recognized that the need to make a stand against extremism. They cannot pretend that the problems in the Muslim world are all the result of their mistreatment at the hands of the non Muslims. They too need to take responsibility.
So then, pegembara, are you saying that strict adherence to Muslim Law (the shariah) is part of the problem?
If so, maybe that religion is inflexible and unyielding in its very nature????