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I was originally really really not judging your behavior, just the statement made that a roving eye never hurt anyone.
NEVER say never @DhammaDragon, some ex-Hedonists may be around
As a hypocrite I do not think of decaying corpses when ogling, abattoirs when eating animals etc.
I do however give monks a good kicking when they think they have all or even any meaningful answers. Some do, some are little more than emotionally stunted weirdos. I apply the same discernment to my lustful consumption of sutras.
And now back to the middle way of lay behaviour ...
Thinking of the human body and what it is wouldn't deter me. Not in the way intended. I might get distracted from my lustful thoughts and start thinking about the human body, but it doesn't gross me out. I find anatomy and biology and physiology and the workings of all of the human body to be fascinating and I think about it a lot. It doesn't gross me out at all to consider what the human body really is, and my curiosity about how it all works probably leads me to experiment more, if anything, lol. I am constantly considering how my body is working and engaging in everything I do, including sex, and it makes it all the more fascinating for me.
I find it interesting that monks and others take a line of "think off something gross to get your mind off something pleasurable." What happened to aversion being just as bad as attachment?
Oh, yes, I am so put off by those abattoir and decaying corpses meditations, that I prefer to ogle and lust like crazy any day, than think I have to repress my body's natural tendencies with such gory ponderings...
I understand that a monk, whose job description mentions subduing the cravings of the human flesh, resorts to any means available to do so...
But in the end, I can't even understand why anyone would choose to be a monk, which brings the whole thread back to square one, for me...
@karasti said:> I find it interesting that monks and others take a line of "think off something gross to get your mind off something pleasurable." What happened to aversion being just as bad as attachment?
I think it's really a case of redressing the balance. The human body and it's functions can appear both attractive and repulsive, but there is often a denial of the repulsive.
I find it interesting that monks and others take a line of "think off something gross to get your mind off something pleasurable." What happened to aversion being just as bad as attachment?
Good question, I think.
Ok, this probably works better for old folks looking at younger folks. For example me, the oldish guy who works on a college campus. Try a little metta. Wish them happiness and a meaningful life. Wish them peace and hope they will make the world better through their actions. Look and enjoy, but don't stop at the neck, see the whole person as a person, not an object.
Now, could I have pulled this off as a twenty something looking at other twenty somethings? Probably not..
Asubha practice is not thinking of something gross it means not beautiful rather than something to have aversion too. Metta can sometimes help, accepting the feeling without judgement but for the lay Buddhist these aren't to important. Even to desire not to desire is still to be caught on the wheel.
For me, the body and it's processes is neither attractive nor repulsive but just functional. It's just a vessel, a machine, carrying something more precious. That isn't to deny being attracted to people. Our biology is just set up so that we are attracted to people so that we reproduce. When I see attractive people, like a guy jogging shirtless, I'm not thinking "Wow, he's so hot!" I'm thinking more "Wow, look at all the work he has put into his body. I wonder how much of it is genetics and how much of it is effort?" and so on. Because I know what it takes to get a body looking a certain way and it amazes me that people have that dedication and motivation. A friend of ours, a 40 year old guy, just started working out a couple years ago. This August he is doing an Ironman. He hopes to finish in 14 hours. I cannot fathom doing ANYTHING for 14 hours straight, lol. He has properly fueled and trains his body to do this, and I find that utterly fascinating. The attractiveness of his body as a result is secondary for me. But I'm probably just odd.
Monastic life is not for me this go around. But it also fascinates me. From a similar point of view as above. It fascinates me their dedication to their mind and the work they are able to do with it.
I enjoy momentary high levels of dedication to both-mind and body. But it is clear I need a middle way and when I struggle to reach it I usually lose my dedication to both. It's a constant conflict for me, lol.
ANYHOW. it seems to me it might be more useful to consider the body just as a vessel. Instead of putting particular forms of it on a pedestal to drool over, thinking of it is no different than any other body that performs the same operations and processes all day long kind of evens things out. I don't have a problem with lusting over people but there were times I classified people in my mind as attractive or not. That doesn't really happen so much anymore. Some are focused on their bodies. Some on their minds. Some on other things. The workings of it all is interesting.
1. Remind myself why I am working on letting this go.
2. Ask myself if it brings long/short term suffering or happiness. If I do what my mind is asking for will it make me happier in a spiritual way? I have loads of non-spiritual joy already, so I gotta balance it.
3. Be mindful of something else, like the sky, buildings, etc. Also sounds, smells, physical feelings, etc.
And no, I do not look up everytime someone good looking passes by!
Of course the goal is not to wind up with the view that the body is disgusting.
Lust can be pretty overwhelming. It takes strong measures to control it, or it can lead to a variety of other problems.
I've had addicts of every kind working for me over the years. I consider sex addiction to be among the most disruptive. It seems to lead guys into all sorts of complications.
I think that measures to control lust such as imagining all the ugly parts of the body, are for disciplining a younger mind. As we age, it's possible to start to see the truth more clearly and not get swayed by longings based on illusion, quite so often.
That truth being that the body is not a beautiful sweet smelling object to be sought after, and that having access to it will not satisfy me for more than a few moments.
And that it is not a repulsive object to be avoided. It is what it is.
I find it interesting that monks and others take a line of "think off something gross to get your mind off something pleasurable." What happened to aversion being just as bad as attachment?
You don't say.
If in doubt go to your breath.
"Because, lord, the Blessed One, with many lines of reasoning, gave the monks a talk on the unattractiveness [of the body], spoke in praise of [the perception of] unattractiveness, spoke in praise of the development of [the perception of] unattractiveness. The monks — [thinking,] 'The Blessed One, with many lines of reasoning, has given a talk on the unattractiveness [of the body], has spoken in praise of [the perception of] unattractiveness, has spoken in praise of the development of [the perception of] unattractiveness' — remained committed to the development of [the perception of] unattractiveness in many modes & manners. They — ashamed, repelled, & disgusted with this body — sought for an assassin. In one day, ten monks took the knife. In one day, twenty monks took the knife. In one day, thirty monks took the knife. It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would explain another method so that this community of monks might be established in gnosis."
There are two aspects to sexuality. One is the genuine expression of the need by the organism and the second is the need created by thoughts based on memory of some past pleasure. Today in our society 99% of the activities related to sexuality are thought based and we have contorted and twisted the concept of sexuality to a ridiculous extent. Also the content through internet is so widespread that out desire is more imitative in nature based on what we see and read.
I suffered this too - an addiction to lust. But I'm gaining the strength to look through my desires. And instead of acting on my desires, I'm learning to accept my human weaknesses and then letting go of the desires( instead of fighting them which makes them come back with vengeance) I believe this is a result of my zazen practice.
There is no other way out other than looking in the nature of your desire as and when it arises and as and when you are acting it out. Yes it takes courage and strength, but there are no short cuts here. You need to understand where is the root of the desire. It not just that you looked at a person of opposite sex. It is because your mind builds an expectation of a sense of well being that might arise by being physically closer to that person and the expectation of the pleasure of orgasm.
Please have the strength to pause for a moment and see whether your being has a genuine need or is it a play of thought as described above. This is not different from having a genuine hunger vs eating food merely to satisfy the tongue. Sexuality is highly dramatized in our society leading to further twisted thoughts.
The sad part is that we have given in so much to though based sexuality that we have forgotten and do not know about about the genuine sexual expression.
I've been getting back into Mahasi Sayadaw's Vipassana technique which invoves gently labeling whichever sensory impression comes in strongest. I had a strong bout of lust the other day and just gnetly labelled its various components as imagining, thinking and desire and it soon passed.
Comments
@silver I gave you a LOL because it is so true but it did make me laugh picturing it...
Zen and the art of "nose picking"
NEVER say never @DhammaDragon, some ex-Hedonists may be around
As a hypocrite I do not think of decaying corpses when ogling, abattoirs when eating animals etc.
I do however give monks a good kicking when they think they have all or even any meaningful answers. Some do, some are little more than emotionally stunted weirdos. I apply the same discernment to my lustful consumption of sutras.
And now back to the middle way of lay behaviour ...
Thinking of the human body and what it is wouldn't deter me. Not in the way intended. I might get distracted from my lustful thoughts and start thinking about the human body, but it doesn't gross me out. I find anatomy and biology and physiology and the workings of all of the human body to be fascinating and I think about it a lot. It doesn't gross me out at all to consider what the human body really is, and my curiosity about how it all works probably leads me to experiment more, if anything, lol. I am constantly considering how my body is working and engaging in everything I do, including sex, and it makes it all the more fascinating for me.
I find it interesting that monks and others take a line of "think off something gross to get your mind off something pleasurable." What happened to aversion being just as bad as attachment?
Oh, yes, I am so put off by those abattoir and decaying corpses meditations, that I prefer to ogle and lust like crazy any day, than think I have to repress my body's natural tendencies with such gory ponderings...
I understand that a monk, whose job description mentions subduing the cravings of the human flesh, resorts to any means available to do so...
But in the end, I can't even understand why anyone would choose to be a monk, which brings the whole thread back to square one, for me...
I think it's really a case of redressing the balance. The human body and it's functions can appear both attractive and repulsive, but there is often a denial of the repulsive.
Good question, I think.
Ok, this probably works better for old folks looking at younger folks. For example me, the oldish guy who works on a college campus. Try a little metta. Wish them happiness and a meaningful life. Wish them peace and hope they will make the world better through their actions. Look and enjoy, but don't stop at the neck, see the whole person as a person, not an object.
Now, could I have pulled this off as a twenty something looking at other twenty somethings? Probably not..
Asubha practice is not thinking of something gross it means not beautiful rather than something to have aversion too. Metta can sometimes help, accepting the feeling without judgement but for the lay Buddhist these aren't to important. Even to desire not to desire is still to be caught on the wheel.
For me, the body and it's processes is neither attractive nor repulsive but just functional. It's just a vessel, a machine, carrying something more precious. That isn't to deny being attracted to people. Our biology is just set up so that we are attracted to people so that we reproduce. When I see attractive people, like a guy jogging shirtless, I'm not thinking "Wow, he's so hot!" I'm thinking more "Wow, look at all the work he has put into his body. I wonder how much of it is genetics and how much of it is effort?" and so on. Because I know what it takes to get a body looking a certain way and it amazes me that people have that dedication and motivation. A friend of ours, a 40 year old guy, just started working out a couple years ago. This August he is doing an Ironman. He hopes to finish in 14 hours. I cannot fathom doing ANYTHING for 14 hours straight, lol. He has properly fueled and trains his body to do this, and I find that utterly fascinating. The attractiveness of his body as a result is secondary for me. But I'm probably just odd.
Monastic life is not for me this go around. But it also fascinates me. From a similar point of view as above. It fascinates me their dedication to their mind and the work they are able to do with it.
I enjoy momentary high levels of dedication to both-mind and body. But it is clear I need a middle way and when I struggle to reach it I usually lose my dedication to both. It's a constant conflict for me, lol.
ANYHOW. it seems to me it might be more useful to consider the body just as a vessel. Instead of putting particular forms of it on a pedestal to drool over, thinking of it is no different than any other body that performs the same operations and processes all day long kind of evens things out. I don't have a problem with lusting over people but there were times I classified people in my mind as attractive or not. That doesn't really happen so much anymore. Some are focused on their bodies. Some on their minds. Some on other things. The workings of it all is interesting.
Some stuff I do that is helping me so far:
1. Remind myself why I am working on letting this go.
2. Ask myself if it brings long/short term suffering or happiness. If I do what my mind is asking for will it make me happier in a spiritual way? I have loads of non-spiritual joy already, so I gotta balance it.
3. Be mindful of something else, like the sky, buildings, etc. Also sounds, smells, physical feelings, etc.
And no, I do not look up everytime someone good looking passes by!
Things do drop off as you get older.
Of course the goal is not to wind up with the view that the body is disgusting.
Lust can be pretty overwhelming. It takes strong measures to control it, or it can lead to a variety of other problems.
I've had addicts of every kind working for me over the years. I consider sex addiction to be among the most disruptive. It seems to lead guys into all sorts of complications.
I think that measures to control lust such as imagining all the ugly parts of the body, are for disciplining a younger mind. As we age, it's possible to start to see the truth more clearly and not get swayed by longings based on illusion, quite so often.
That truth being that the body is not a beautiful sweet smelling object to be sought after, and that having access to it will not satisfy me for more than a few moments.
And that it is not a repulsive object to be avoided. It is what it is.
You don't say.
If in doubt go to your breath.
Oh... the pesky days of smoothing off the rough edges of the Dharma.
Dead bodies. Fantasising how to eat them kills your lust for life, for sure.
Well, people eat dead bodies all the time, so I don't see that as being all that effective.
Overcoming lust is difficult if you are still young and active. I believe it dissolves by itself over time and with age.
There are two aspects to sexuality. One is the genuine expression of the need by the organism and the second is the need created by thoughts based on memory of some past pleasure. Today in our society 99% of the activities related to sexuality are thought based and we have contorted and twisted the concept of sexuality to a ridiculous extent. Also the content through internet is so widespread that out desire is more imitative in nature based on what we see and read.
I suffered this too - an addiction to lust. But I'm gaining the strength to look through my desires. And instead of acting on my desires, I'm learning to accept my human weaknesses and then letting go of the desires( instead of fighting them which makes them come back with vengeance) I believe this is a result of my zazen practice.
There is no other way out other than looking in the nature of your desire as and when it arises and as and when you are acting it out. Yes it takes courage and strength, but there are no short cuts here. You need to understand where is the root of the desire. It not just that you looked at a person of opposite sex. It is because your mind builds an expectation of a sense of well being that might arise by being physically closer to that person and the expectation of the pleasure of orgasm.
Please have the strength to pause for a moment and see whether your being has a genuine need or is it a play of thought as described above. This is not different from having a genuine hunger vs eating food merely to satisfy the tongue. Sexuality is highly dramatized in our society leading to further twisted thoughts.
The sad part is that we have given in so much to though based sexuality that we have forgotten and do not know about about the genuine sexual expression.
C'mon!
I disappear for a couple of days and people are still contriving ways to exterminate poor lust...!
Kill lust no.
Not allowing it to run you, yes....
But please....
I've been getting back into Mahasi Sayadaw's Vipassana technique which invoves gently labeling whichever sensory impression comes in strongest. I had a strong bout of lust the other day and just gnetly labelled its various components as imagining, thinking and desire and it soon passed.
I find labelling very helpful, it's a way of putting feelings into perspective, not getting so caught up in them.
Well, on Star Trek the aliens called us, "Ugly bags of mostly water".
They way a lot of guys talk, all they need to think about is their wives.