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Entering Buddhism From An Atheist Or Other Religious Background.......
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
Over the years I've seen the struggles some people have adjusting to Buddhism ( the Dharma and Buddhist philosophy)...Where passed religious 'conditioning' (indoctrination) has taken its toll...
I'm under the impression that a person coming from either an atheistic or agnostic background
( where science was their god) finds it easier to adapt to or adopt the BuddhaDharma (no excess baggage to contend with-when boarding the raft, so to speak)...I can really only speak for myself and my personal journey and the people I have encountered/observed along the way...
Do you think that this is the case ie, that "overall," those with a non religious background have an easier time adapting to Buddhism ?
What's your personal story ?
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Comments
It depends on how strong the indoctrination was.
many resent their past, feeling their previous religious background 'spoiled' their outlook, tarnished their conditioning and marred them negatively.
I was born into, and greatly influenced by Roman Catholicism, but never in a soul-destroying, badly-influential way. Sure, I had one or two minor glitches, but that was due to people, not religion itself. And I'm half-Italian, too!
I realise those brought up within a religious environment, such as many members who live in the USA, have vastly different tales to tell; I think we've lightly touched on how differently 'religion' is practiced and perceived, on both sides of the Pond, in another thread.
So certainly, mine is one experience, but it's not generally definitive.
I "discovered" Buddhism on my first visit to Thailand. I was impressed with how such very poor people could be seemingly so happy. And then a Thai family subtly introduced me to their life as Buddhists.
So for a while I went "way Buddhist". This is very much like students who come to the United States from another country who, for a while, go way American.
After a while, however, I rethought my situation and decided that there are truths in both religions, so I straddle the line.
I know some people here hate that, but that's their problem, not mine. It works for me. And whatever they do is fine with me...until they start the whole criticism routine, and then I just totally lose respect for them (as some do for me). I worry less about freedom of speech than I do freedom of thought.
When you say that 'some' lose respect for you, that's a perception which I'm glad to say, for my part, is wholly flawed.
Just as an aside, and for the public announcement of it.
And 'hate'...?
No.
I don't think so....
I'm an atheist (in that I just don't believe there are any gods), but it's a common misconception that 'science' is a 'god' for atheists. We're a little sensitive about that
mainly because we just got done explaining for the four hundred and sixty tooth time that we don't believe in ANY gods, none, zip, zero, nada, or the Tooth Fairy or Santa either! Just had to say that . . .
Taking on a Buddhist practice was very easy for me because there were no deities involved unless I wanted there to be. It's like having a philosophy of the human BEING, for me, to be a Buddhist. I only call myself a Buddhist here on this forum, and that with caveats, while deeply, deeply resonating with the Buddhist 'cosmology' and practices, the suttas and history and all. One of the main reasons I don't call myself a Buddhist in every day life is my annoyance with the assumption that I 'worship' the Buddha or relate to the Buddha in a similar way to the Christian God. I probably need to work on this
But yeah, the non-theist nature of Buddhism (early or Theravadan) appeals to me and soothes my butt wrinkles, all that I have left after resenting Christianity for most of my life. I think you are onto something.
I always find the question instructive: "If I'm so [fill in spiritual preference], how come I'm not happy?" Or, put in 'non'-religious terms, "If I'm so smart, how come I'm not happy?"
Confusion/unsatisfactoriness/dis-ease/dukkha strikes me as an equal-opportunity employer and there is no way to parse or compare whether it's harder/easier to take on Buddhist trappings when coming from a particular set of beliefs or biases. More, trying to nail such things down is like nailing Jell-O to the wall: Everyone trips over his/her own feet; everyone has a hard time, no matter how gussied-up the description might be.
Discipline means doing what you don't want to do. If Buddhism consisted in doing only what you want to do, how much could anyone possibly learn?
Bottom line: Do what your best not to explain it.
Screw it! Do it!
Or not.
Your choice, your life.
I was sent to a Roman Catholic boarding school and misbehaved as a wine-drinking altar boy. The Catholic brothers failed miserably in their attempts to make a theist of me.
Later on I felt a need for a spiritual path, and Buddhism was the only one I could find without God in it. Praise the Lord!
I'm actually beyond caring to be honest. They're on the path now, that's all that matters.
_ /\ _
I then became atheist/agnostic, then dabbled in Wicca. I then went back to being agnostic. . .
I think it's fun saying I'm Buddhist and most of the teachings really help me see what is however I believe the names do so much misleading.
It's almost as if there is a different religion for each person. Therevada, Mahayana, Zen, Pureland, Advaita, Hinduism etc...
If I said I do Therevada, already others minds begin to label what they think I am. So much judgement happens automatically.
Better for me to not say I'm anything.
Yes, people do have some odd ideas. Generally they are based on ignorance.
I just KNEW there was something odd about Buddhism, but I could never put my finger on it. Thanks.
@Shoshin
I look on it like trying to teach someone how to meditate with their eyes open.
If they have not formally meditated before...eyes open or eyes shut..no problem.
If they have a lot of experience with meditating with their eyes shut, trying to have them transition to meditating with their eyes open is fraught with all their ideas of what their meditation has formally felt like.
I think we are also talking about what threatens our identity and what does not.
Are you an atheist because you are neutral about the alternatives or
are you an atheist because you've taken a stand against the alternatives.
Are you religious because you are neutral about the alternative or
are you religious because you've taken a stand against the alternative.
It just depends on so many factors. I was raised lutheran, and I was not given a choice about attending church or getting confirmed (which is done as a teenager in the church we belonged to, I think the classes were 2 years and we were confirmed around age 14 or 15). I knew very, very early on that it wasn't for me, but I didn't get to make the choice until I was too big for my mom to drag out of bed, lol. I probably would have been fine had I just been left to make my choice, but because I wasn't I rebelled strongly against Christianity. As soon as I had the choice, I dropped it and focused a lot on what I didn't like about it. But when I left home not long after, I took world religions classes in college and met people with so many different views. Fast forward through some years of paganism and ultimately to 15 years down the road when I "found" Buddhism. I actually met it in college, but how it was described was poor and caused a skewed perception on my part. Thankfully I revisited it thanks to my son's interest in it. By that point, I wsan't rebelling against Christianity anymore and was just looking for something to give me tools to bring balance to my life.
Because of my experience, I have been very reluctant to raise my kids in any one tradition. They know my beliefs, and I talk about them with them as appropriate. But I do not indoctrinate them or anything. I want them to be able to choose when they are ready. My oldest (18) leans towards Buddhism but doesn't subscribe to anything. He is extremely logic-minded due to his ASD and anything he adopts has to be explained in logic or he can't accept it. Makes explaining human emotions such fun, lol. My middle son who is almost 13 is a declared atheist but he meditates with me. He's at an age where doing anything that feels like rebellion makes him feel in control, so whatever. He likes to announce that he's atheist as if it's supposed to upset me. I told him technically I am too, lol. The 6 year old is very connected to nature but also talks about past live experiences quite often. He obviously is too young to know much about the details of religion. I have a wonderful children's Jakarta tales type of book that I read with him and he enjoys that. He does yoga with me.
Just what I see in my own circle of friends, right now, the atheists are the most vocal and are just as rabid as Christians can be in their beliefs. I don't care what anyone believes, but I care how they treat people, and my friends who declare atheism are just as rude to/about Christian people as they denounce when others are rude about them, so I'm not so such that all (or most) atheists aren't so detached from their own beliefs that they have an easier time coming to Buddhism if that is what they do.
Thanks for all the responses so far...
@federica made an interesting point about how religion might be perceived in different countries...
This is slightly off track (but an't we all
)
A few years ago, I joined my first Buddhist forum (only for a short period before it was closed) the forum was US based so there were a number of US Buddhists floating around, but one in particular stood out...
He was from the deep south and was a Zen practitioner, however none of his neighbours in the apartment block where he lived knew of his 'religious' beliefs, they just took it for granted he was 'one of them' he was extremely fearful of his neighbours finding out and what might happen to him if they did....So I can understand the pressures some Buddhists are faced with when practising the Dharma, in such an environment...
My dad was/is an atheist and my mom was estranged from God though now is back as a Christian believer or at least a God believer. For me becoming Buddhist healed my viewpoint of Christianity. I didn't resent it any more.
That's healthy. Nothing good that I can think of regarding resentment.
I'm in the deep south, although I'm northern born and raised. For the last 30 years I have lived in a very diverse university town where pretty much anything goes. Outside of places like this or the big cities the fellow's anxiety would be reasonable, particularly if he is a native southerner. Being Christian, specifically evangelical protestant Christian, is absolutely central to traditional southern identity. At the very least, in many small towns and rural areas, he would put himself out of the tribe (I use the word intentionally) by being openly Buddhist. That is not to say that he would necessarily be harassed, but he would be seen as different, unsaved and not truly southern.
As for me, aside from the fact that I'm in a diverse town where to cite an example, Muslim women wear the hijab in public, I am not and could never have been in the tribe. This is by virtue of my northern, multi-ethnic, Episcopal/Catholic/agnostic background and my northern wife. So Buddhism really would be less of an issue for me in a small town. I'd be an outsider upon arrival, Buddhism would just be one more chip in the weird outsider pile
^^^ Well said. I'm in the part of the South where I AND my children are harrassed. Even at work, yes in a Federal building! I have had to leave two recent mandatory meetings bec prayers started and such. I quietly stood up and left. I'm in the middle now of dealing with work issues I missed bec I chose to get up and leave. And I told them why. My daughter Adjua recently got chosen out of the whole school to participate in an Art performance, and it was revealed there were 3 Christian songs being sang, and she had to go along. We discussed it at length, and I left the choice up to her. She chose to do it for the experience and bec she wanted to follow thru with her commitment. During the songs, I noticed she just stood quiet, with her mouth closed....still smiling..
I will not be silenced about what I practice, but it's a determined road that I have to address often and teach my children how to deal with. In addition to being the 'African Outsider'. It's assumed your a believer, and when it/if it comes out your not....there are people to deal with.
Southern hospitality my ass. Only if you go with the flock.
Wow, @vastmind and you are in a city and Federal employment! I guess I need to get out of my progressive little college town bubble more. It sounds like it's a lot worse than I thought out there..
Yep, I'm in Memphis, and this is COGIC land right here...not to mention my Federal building is on stateline RD between TN and Mississippi. And Arkansas is a stone's throw away....so...you get the idea.
For reference.. COGIC - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_God_in_Christ
I live in a quite progressive state, but in a backwoods redneck part of it. But, mostly people just talk behind your back and don't bother you much to your face. I've had people ask me if I worship Satan or if I'm a witch. I've had my son refused the Buddhist wheel as his Boy Scout pin because he couldn't "prove" he was Buddhist while all his Christian friends got their crosses without a question of proof for them. When I homeschooled my middle son, I got a lot of "What do you MEAN you don't homeschool with the bible?" types of questions. People just can't quite fathom it, so they stare and gossip and keep their distance, which is fine with me, LOL. Politics can get nasty but religion is largely left to "live and let live" which is good enough. We did try to start a compassionate kids group to encourage service for young people to the community, because we have a group but is it Christian based (they pray and sing and the whole works) and a lot of kids don't join it because of that. The locals about lost their minds at the thought of a non-denominational group meeting with their kids about projects to do about town. So that didn't happen. Can't pick up trash without singing about Jesus, I guess.
Ooooooh, dear. Yup, I've heard of COGIC.
Amended it for you... Although weirdly, when I clicked to edit your post - the word appeared correctly - but when I reverted to the normal post - it appeared as 'where' again!!
Still, I managed it in the end....
The next largest group other than COGIC around here, pretty much sums up what @Kenneth said. The next big group are Southern Baptists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention
My experience was more or less like @federica's.
I was raised in a Catholic household, attended a Catholic school, but I never experienced the "dark side" of the Christian faith, nor feel any resentment at all towards my forbearer's religion... except when people flaunt the G-word too liberally, perhaps
Since I was a child, I was simply different.
At nine I was deeply attracted to Confucious and Taoism, and from there I branched out to Theosophy, Vedanta and Buddhism.
Both the school and my parents realized I was irrecuperable to Christianity and nobody bothered to bring me back to the good path nor indoctrinate me against my will.
So in my case, I have never been a Christian at heart and have therefore never had cold feet about Buddhism.
I arrived to Buddhism rather with the deep recognition of a "Yes, at last: it had to be you."
To be a Buddhist and stay a Buddhist comes quite naturally to me and it's choice I make every day.
I have a pile of Dharma books to digest, and the more I read, the more grateful I am to be a Buddhist.
Though I also enjoy Taoism, I could not be anything but Buddhist.
With all my heart.
Thank God for Buddhism!
I was raised in a Muslim family, I never knew how to pray, and never even read the Quran, never tried to learn it, my heart wasn't into Islam, but I blindly believed in it for a long time, as I got older feeling unhappy, searching for the truth I found Christianity, learning about the teachings of Christ made me happy, but in a short time I wasn't happy with Christianity either, not happy I soon I found the Dhamma, and it felt tailor made for me, at long last I found what I was searching for, by penetrating the teaching of not self, I discovered that there really is not a self to be found.
As time went on practicing meditation and studying the Dhamma I had a meditation experience that made me deluded and fall away from the Buddha's teachings, I searched again for truth, I briefly followed Advaita Vedanta and took up other teachers besides the Buddha and his Dhamma, in search for ultimate knowledge, soon I felt dissatisfied with Advaita, It was not leading me to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, a memory accord to me of having a past understanding of the Dhamma that I had forgotten almost as soon as I once saw it, I think it was because it was too subtle for me to recognize it right away at that time, after recalling that memory, I realized my mistake for leaving the teachings of the Buddha, I instantly returned to the Dhamma, now I will never leave the teachings of the Buddha again, because I know for myself that the Buddha is rightly self awakened, and has opened the doors to the deathless.
Hi everyone! I'm new to this forum (five months), and until now have not really had a chance to speak about my story.
I attended a Catholic elementary school, and after that a public middle and high school. This is when I began to realize that, for the most part, the only reason I grew up Catholic was because my parents are Catholic and so were everyone else. I decided to branch out and at other belief systems to see which sparked my interest, found Buddhism and looked no further.
Oddly enough, however, I am currently attending a private Catholic university in Minnesota (like @karasti; maybe we are near each other!). Funny how things work out sometimes.
For the short amount of time that I've been researching and gravitating towards Buddhism, I've found it very difficult to change my views on death and "the afterlife" from those of Christianity to those of Buddhism. Part of the reason is because I haven't had enough time to sit down and decide what I actually believe. But hey, that's why I'm here!
Hi @Nave650! I am way up north, near the Canadian border, so unlikely we are too close. You are probably in the Twin Cities? (Or Duluth, which is much closer). In any case, welcome! Nice to have another Minnesota person around. There are a couple of us here
I guess for me it wasn't terribly hard to change my view on the afterlife or similar Christian teachings because I never believed in them, even as a child. But my belief in how rebirth works hasn't quite aligned with what my brand of Buddhism teaches, either. I'm ok with that though, I don't expect to know exactly what happens nor do I need to.
You'll figure it out, and then it'll change
The nice thing about Buddhism is you never really arrive anywhere a lot of the time, your views and understandings will change consistently and they will come into better focus as you go along. Like finally finding the star in the telescope but then it moves, lol.
I came from a christian tradition where the emphasis is live by grace and faith. As years goes by I find it too difficult just to take or believe something just because somebody in the authority said it. Faith seems became a burden for me - hard to digest.
I'm also at lost about the teaching of heaven and eternal damnation. This is quite the opposite of what I was taught in catechism that God is merciful and full of compassion.
If God have an endless compassion, He won't throw His children to the lake of fire just because they didn't do good at this time around. I myself inspite of my mortal limitation wouldn't do painful things to my children.
Next - (no offense to the Jews here) I don't buy the idea that God has its favourite race or group of people. It just not make any sense at all. Luckily the Buddha was kind enough (inspite of just being human) to accept people whatever their caste origin. Not to mention that females have an equal opportunity in buddhism.
I've seen changes in the church through the years and one of them is - it doesn't provide the spiritual nourishment needed for most people (like me) It is no longer "just have faith and believe-follow" Buddhism offer much a clear path - that is "know that path and walk through it - based on your judgement" I like the idea that everything depends on our own shoulder.
Salvation in christian tradition seems a nice word the hear. But I realized that if it is "free" sometimes a person don't give much value of it- taken for granted. And often don't develop accountability.
@karasti I am in the Twin Cities, but grew up in Duluth.
Like I said, the only reason I believed in Christianity was because it was the only thing around. I didn't really know anything else, so any time I thought of death, I thought of heaven and hell.
What is your belief of rebirth?
@mockeymind, I agree. I also find it hard to believe that a God of mercy and justice would let something like the crusades and the countless genocides and holy wars that have occurred. Did medieval Christians somehow forget one of the 10 Commandments; do not kill?
@Nave650 I spent a few years in Duluth, went to UMD
I grew up, and now live, in Ely.
I've been kind of stuck on this idea (that came from a book that I'm not sure I believe was a real account even, lol) that it makes the most sense if, to learn all we need to know to get to the point of "enlightenment" or freedom or awakening, that we need to experience all of what human existence has to offer, good and horrible. So I've kind of stuck with that, even though in Buddhism we try to let go of those dualities and those labels of good or bad and so on. I don't worry about rebirth too much, it's enough to keep up with each day much less worry about when I die, lol. But my kids have all told very detailed rebirth-related stories about places they never would have known about at young ages, and living conditions in those areas, and so on. Because of their stories and my feelings, it's the conclusion I've arrived at so far. I'm open to it changing, though.
A relative of my ex has terminal cancer, but is hanging in there and doing alright. I follow his caring bridge and his wife posts constantly about how God is good and how bless God and your prayers for making his chemo easier on him this week and so on. It makes me want to ask "and what about the 15 year old who died of cancer here last year? Was he not good enough for God to bless?" I don't, of course, but those sentiments kind of make me mad. I am grateful their faith gives their family comfort in a difficult time, but the idea that God is rewarding one cancer sufferer while apparently ignoring another just never worked for me. Even the doctors and science get no credit. It is all God.
My mother was nominally Roman Catholic and my father was a nominal Episcopalian. Neither took religion seriously. They were married in the Episcopal church and I was christened in the Episcopal church (which ought to illustrate to any Catholics on the forum precisely how little regard my mother had for the church) but I was never instructed or confirmed. Essentially, I was raised to be an agnostic.
My wife was raised Presbyterian and we spent some years in a liberal Presbyterian congregation. While the majority of the congregation certainly were supernatural Christians to greater or lesser degrees (resurrection, yes; virgin birth, perhaps; miracles, maybe but possibly explainable or ahistorical metaphor) there was never any pressure to declare for any of it, beyond the routine reciting of the creeds. I was pretty comfortable except for the church internal politics which eventually caused us to walk away.
Can one be a secular Christian? Probably not, since after all, Christianity is largely a supernatural edifice built by others on top of the teachings and wisdom of Jesus. Still, as an agnostic, I do value the worldly teachings and wisdom of Jesus.
I appreciate that the Buddha emphasized the personal experience of truth. Were that not the case I probably wouldn't be here, I would more likely just be a secular meditator. So far as I know, the Buddha's stance is unique in world religions and perfectly fits my agnostic mindset. I already have experienced the four noble truths and so here I am. Karma? I get it, in this lifetime. Rebirth? I have not yet experienced the truth of this, but as an agnostic I'm not convinced that it really matters that I do so. At present, I believe that if I intentionally try to live the eightfold path any rebirth will take care of itself. I intend to spend the rest of this lifetime studying and experiencing and I will see where it leads. It seems to me that's all the Buddha ever asked of us.
@Kenneth, in a sense I think you can be a secular anything. I consider myself a secular Buddhist AND a New Testament Christian. How does that work? Not in believing any set group of stories, but by taking only the actual teachings of Buddha and Jesus and asking: are they wise, and letting the chips fall where they may. And, when you find something not wise, being mature enough to understand that one failure in a religion does not negate every other part of the religion.
That's just my take. And it works for me.
None taken. It's not as cut and dried as Jews saying "we're the chosen ones, you're not so sucked in" but I get your drift.
I am the product of a Catholic father and a Jewish mother. I was raised and educated Catholic and became involved in Judaism as an adult. On the way I discovered and practised traditional Wicca for ten years. I first discovered Buddhism in Year 11 at high school but never took it seriously till I was about 35. Culturally I still am involved in Judaism, but faith wise, Buddhism is the path that most makes sense. I am somewhat of an agnostic still, but I don't sweat it if I don't/can't define it. I focus on the Dharma and the Teachings.
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This just reminded me of what Desmond Tutu had to say about his good friend the Dalai Lama