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"When one enters through the gateless gate, they are never too early nor too late-
The moment is always timed just right. tis time for the self to take flight !"
@Earthninja said:
bookworm I have to degree with Lobster, in that we already are THAT. What we call enlightenment is a recognition of what we already are.
Rumi says "Knocking on the door(enlightenment) it opens... I've been knocking from the inside!"
@DhammaDragon said:
Some days I take a deep breath and I could swear I've crossed some kind of threshold and I'm there.
All of a sudden, things add up.
well I think that describes vijnana which is an awareness that perceives something as an object. That which it perceives as objects is what is meant by 'dharmas'. But even the most subtle vijnana is not the Buddha nature as I have heard it told.
"Every one will agree that neither matter, nor sensation, nor perception, nor any of those mental activities, nor consciousness can be really called 'I'. But when these five physical and mental aggregates which are independent are working together in combination as a physio-psychological machine, we get the idea of 'I'. But this is only a false idea, a mental formation, which is nothing but one of those 52 mental formations of the fourth Aggregate which we have just discussed, namely, it is the idea of self (sakkhaya-ditthi). These five Aggregates together, which we popularly call a 'being' are dukkha itself. There is no other 'being' or 'I' standing behind these five aggregates, who experiences dukkha. As Buddhaghosa says: 'Mere suffering exists, but no sufferer is found; The deed are, but no doer is found.'"
@Jeffrey said:
"As Buddhaghosa says: 'Mere suffering exists, but no sufferer is found; The deed are, but no doer is found.'"" (from your quotation)
what means 'exist'? is it something beyond being apparent?
From what I gather what exists are the five aggregates but no abiding self/I is to be found amongst them, hence suffering is happening ie, all the lights are on.... but nobody's home....
I sometimes wonder why - yes I really fail on my Hinayana - Ye Olde Zeniths would sometimes thwack those who are unmindful of their Mindlessness. Compassion? ... which they no doubt don't-feel ...
@Jeffrey said: so dukkha is something that a self perceives?
Dukkha does seems to depend on self-view, thinking of that well-known passage from the Bahiya Sutta:
"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
@Jeffrey said:
"As Buddhaghosa says: 'Mere suffering exists, but no sufferer is found; The deed are, but no doer is found.'"" (from your quotation)
what means 'exist'? is it something beyond being apparent?
Can there be suffering without a sufferer? Can it exist on its own? I think not.
"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"
@Earthninja said:
bookworm I have to degree with Lobster, in that we already are THAT. What we call enlightenment is a recognition of what we already are.
Rumi says "Knocking on the door (of enlightenment) it opens... I've been knocking from the inside!"
I am gonna start degreeing with people. It is not quite agreeing, not quite disagreeing but just the right degree of a door ajar ...
Rabia the well known Sufi Mother of Mystics, said: 'Why do they always say knock and it will be opened. When has it ever been closed?' http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabia_Basri
Very true... We dream the knocking, the knocker and the door. How weird is that!
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
Knock knock
Who's there?
Can't be Buddha
Can't be Buddha who?
Can't be Buddha You!
Comments
Rumi says "Knocking on the door(enlightenment) it opens... I've been knocking from the inside!"
Ahh the gateless gate...
"When one enters through the gateless gate, they are never too early nor too late-
The moment is always timed just right. tis time for the self to take flight !"
Please close the gate on your way out.........
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
http://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/neti-neti/index.html
who is having the experience of dukkha?
The self.....
so dukkha is something that a self perceives?
What else would perceive it as such @Jeffrey ?
well I think that describes vijnana which is an awareness that perceives something as an object. That which it perceives as objects is what is meant by 'dharmas'. But even the most subtle vijnana is not the Buddha nature as I have heard it told.
According to Walpola Rahula @Jeffrey
"Every one will agree that neither matter, nor sensation, nor perception, nor any of those mental activities, nor consciousness can be really called 'I'. But when these five physical and mental aggregates which are independent are working together in combination as a physio-psychological machine, we get the idea of 'I'. But this is only a false idea, a mental formation, which is nothing but one of those 52 mental formations of the fourth Aggregate which we have just discussed, namely, it is the idea of self (sakkhaya-ditthi). These five Aggregates together, which we popularly call a 'being' are dukkha itself. There is no other 'being' or 'I' standing behind these five aggregates, who experiences dukkha. As Buddhaghosa says: 'Mere suffering exists, but no sufferer is found; The deed are, but no doer is found.'"
"As Buddhaghosa says: 'Mere suffering exists, but no sufferer is found; The deed are, but no doer is found.'"" (from your quotation)
what means 'exist'? is it something beyond being apparent?
From what I gather what exists are the five aggregates but no abiding self/I is to be found amongst them, hence suffering is happening ie, all the lights are on.... but nobody's home....
Thanks everyone
I sometimes wonder why - yes I really fail on my Hinayana - Ye Olde Zeniths would sometimes thwack those who are unmindful of their Mindlessness. Compassion? ... which they no doubt don't-feel ...
However maybe we expect a more genteel Chan, with smiling and chocs ...
http://sweepingzen.com/category/interviews/
Back at the underlying 'emptiness of being anything constant', which is a realisation but not enlightening, we 'find' - Nothing.
Sadly we can not say too much about paradoxes of 'Presence without being'. What is a gal to do?
Nothing beats sitting?
http://fullcontactenlightenment.com
Dukkha does seems to depend on self-view, thinking of that well-known passage from the Bahiya Sutta:
"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html
Can there be suffering without a sufferer? Can it exist on its own? I think not.
I am gonna start degreeing with people. It is not quite agreeing, not quite disagreeing but just the right degree of a door ajar ...
Rabia the well known Sufi Mother of Mystics, said: 'Why do they always say knock and it will be opened. When has it ever been closed?'
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabia_Basri
What a Gal!
Who's there?
Can't be Buddha
Can't be Buddha who?
Can't be Buddha You!
Knock Knock who's there ? (An old Zen joke...They are still waiting for an answer )
Some models of Dharma practice 'polish the ego' traits, patch the 'monkey mind' or change the nature of the mundane ego.
As some have pointed out Zen is a direct 'no time to waste way'.
Chan confronts the avoidance, delay and obscurations. Direct pointing.
Dhyāna does this with the simplest, most direct and effective formal effort found in most dharma schools.
Unsurprisingly the results are effective and focussed.
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma6/enlightnirvana.html
You forgot yogic contortions and being hit with sticks.