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Zen - 'enlightenment in this lifetime'
lobster
Crusty Veteran
in Meditation
Zen was my first serious attempt to find out about Dharma when I was about twelve. Starting with reading 'Zen in the Art of Archery'. I was recently doing shikantaza meditation for about the last year.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza
Zen emphasis on simple practice orientation is an 'enlightenment in this lifetime' path. How does that appeal?
3
Comments
No special gymnastics, just sit and be.
And wow those Japanese gardens and calligraphy...
"Zen emphasis on simple practice orientation is an 'enlightenment in this lifetime' path. How does that appeal?"
Appeal=make a serious, urgent, or heartfelt request.
"Don't practice to become enlightened-let your practice be the natural expression of your enlightenment!"
I like Zen because all one does is sit around and do absolutely nothing...It's my kinda practice
That sounds too goal-orientated for my liking.
Yawn... been there, done that, read the book, seen the movie, got the t-shirt....
Damn. I knew there was something I'd forgotten...
Where's my axe and bucket....?
Butt I think that with regular and "tough" practice one can reach enlightenment in this life time.
Those Zennies like it tough, yogic contortions in meditation, being beaten with sticks, addled brains from koans, no pain, no gain.
(And those robes... very elegant, very inspirational.... But I would argue the point that 'clothes maketh the man'..... )
Without enlightenment, the end of Dukkha, is Buddhism just a quirky hobby?
http://www.zenguide.com/principles/eight_fold_path.cfm#understanding
Thanks guys.
Focus and continued effort can be an overwhelming intensity. Zen has always seemed to be for those highly motivated.
I still have to work on my impatience as I know that's an anger trigger of mine but other than that I'm happy to unfold without rushing the process.
I'm not sure if it's my ego talking or a genuine and right compassion for others but I'd like to see others awaken and it would make me feel good if someone found me enlightening.
If someone told me I was enlightening, it would make me feel good. If someone told me I was enlightened it would make me feel like a charlatan.
If I knew I was awake without a doubt I may not even tell anybody, he.
@ Lobster
Zen - 'enlightenment in this lifetime'. Fine but I'd be cautious of it's appeal.
In Zen, it's the ego that has one hunger for an imagined destination away from today's path, just to keep us slumbering past any real awakening.
I'm presently reading Questions to a Zen master (Taisen Deshimaru) - Practical and Spiritual Answers from the Great Japanese Master.
I chose to start with the last chapter on Practice - Zazen, Posture and Tradition - fascinating q&a.
This is what I like about this book and the thinking behind it:
"Q: Is it possible to talk about progress in the practice of zazen?
A: If you practice every day, every day is progress. The mind is always changing.
If you practice zazen only once, that is progress.
But the progress I mean has nothing to do with the steps of a stairway leading to satori at the top. If you practice zazen, here and now you can become like Buddha, like God. There are no degrees.
True Zen coincides with each person's here and now. If you are truly without any goal or desire for profit, truly mushotoku, then you realize Buddha, God. Mushotoku is extremely hard to practice in everyday life, but during zazen, when you are not trying to get anything, when you are not saying, "I must experience satori, I must become healthy, I must become Buddha, maybe I am now," then you can know what mushotoku is."
Just a little excerpt there for you. I'm now starting at the beginning of this book.
-It works for me (read: chop wood/carry water :-)
It's ok if you don't have pure understanding or pure motivation or whatever. You can have 'gaining mind'. If you didn't well wouldn't that be nice?
In theory, one can become enlightened in one lifetime.
The reality is that this is very rare.
Buddhism is essentially a process, not a goal. And having a goal tends to obstruct the process.
I don't think I've heard of "gaining mind".
I could google it but could you say what you mean by that?
@ourself I think I read it in Shunyru Suzuki's book 'Zen Mind Beginner's Mind'.
Look here to get the vibe --->
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/62707.Shunryu_Suzuki
From my standpoint having gaining mind is ok. You just keep practicing. You don't have to say "oh I have to get rid of gaining mind". Just notice it is 'just thinking'. Gaining mind is literally thinking how you are going to get something. Ok it's confusing because it is natural to want to get something. If we are suffering we don't want that.
So something to think about. It is not 'the answer' to think about this.
I had an interesting thought about gaining mind. I have probably meditated 1000 hours in my lifetime. But I can only think of two sessions in all that time that were more pleasurable than a single cigarette. I hope I don't demotivate anyone on meditation because I DO HAVE A GREAT DEEP PEACE from meditating. But not a 'buzz'. I have more a buzz talking about buddhist concepts than I do in my meditation. But only 2 times did I have more bliss than a cigarette!
Instead of appeal, perhaps we might ask 'how does that sit'. In one sense everything that comes up is 'not sitting'.
@lobster - What does "... we might ask how does that sit" mean? Also, "everything that comes up is 'not sitting"?
@Jeffery - about gaining mind - lobster shared a link on meditation "Introduction to the Sadhana of the Venerable Tara". I like it very much. Because chanting the Green Tara gave me much peace so I would like to do this meditation, to draw near to her, to learn her goodness.
"Gaining mind is literally thinking how you are going to get something."
When I made it a point that I would like to do this meditation, I wasn't thinking of getting something out of it. It was a magnetic thought, I want to be near her. And learn to be like her.
Now, I find myself checking myself...
Veterans.... Please guide me...
Namaste
Zenni
How something sits with us, means in part, what do we understand. How does it settle into our consciousness.
We learn to meditate using a reasonably settled mind. It can take a while for us to sit comfortably without strain and undue effort. Initially 'not sitting' is our preferred mode, we need to apply effort, discipline, regularity.
The monkey mind or unsettled mind rebels, it can not sit still physically or in its own unsettled nature. This is the 'not sitting' that comes up. When we learn to 'just sit', many things may arrive: physical sensations, fantasies, daily life experiences, mind within mind. This too we can sit with, still we are not just sitting. For the more developed and experienced practitioner, there is more just being or 'just sitting', more spaciousness, more 'just sitting' ...
Hope that is helpful
I agree, some effort and discipline is essential. Not applying any effort or discipline to maintaining a meditation practice is like deciding to get physically fit and then not taking any exercise, it just ain't gonna work.
The monkey mind or unsettled mind rebels, it can not sit still physically or in its own unsettled nature. This is the 'not sitting' that comes up. When we learn to 'just sit', many things may arrive: physical sensations, fantasies, daily life experiences, mind within mind. This too we can sit with, still we are not just sitting. For the more developed and experienced practitioner, there is more just being or 'just sitting', more spaciousness, more 'just sitting' ...
Thank you.. I think I understand.
Your explanation reminds me of a particular morning.
I was doing walking meditation on a side road. I was about 15 minutes into it ("many things may arrive") Afar, I saw an elderly man sweeping the road. The road sweeper stopped, one hand holding the broom, another rubbing his back. There was a big pile of dried, brown colored leaves beside him. There were more leaves ahead, to be swept. I walked toward him, after much persuasion, he passed me his broom and I started sweeping. As I was at it, I realised I was supposed to be doing my walking meditation! Failed.
Then I said to myself, it's ok, I'll do sweeping meditation. So mindfully I swept.........
Without me realizing (... monkey mind... many things may arrive") I was "transported to a faraway place, sweeping autumn leaves". Failed again.
I was learning to "just sit"?, the distraction and fantasies arrived. Sigh.. But... It's ok, "this too I can sit with". I will continue my journey.
I am so grateful to have found a sangha (here).
@SpindyNorman - Thanks for the analogy. You made it easy to remember.. The discipline to maintain the practice..
Namaste
Zenni
Oops sorry, I haven't figured it out correctly how to do the quote thingie..
Fwiw, I just read this article at Tricycle and I know it's gonna help me in my life, whether mindfulness, meditation or just general purposes.
http://www.tricycle.com/dharma-talk/noticing-space
@silver - Thank you so much for sharing this article, another precious one. Something so simple yet so difficult to figure it out, and almost impossible to achieve. I love the way it is explained, introducing in such a gentle manner, explaining with patience and love.
Thank you, Abbot Ajahn Sumedho.
Namaste
Zenni
lol, you can't expect to be enlightened "in this life time OP". Cause practitioners who became awakened to their intrinsic nature in any particular life time due to their practices accumulated over many many life times.
do you even lift?
No need for expectations.
You seem uplifted - so clearly yes.
It kind of amuses me.
Our habits are the habits of a lifetime to date, perhaps of countless lifetimes if rebirth does indeed occur. These habits are not going to change quickly. Although if we have already spent several lifetimes working on enlightenment, I suppose we reach a point where we are born already-poised on the edge, and all it takes this one-more lifetime to bring us into enlightenment. They say that Buddha worked on enlightenment for many lifetimes prior to the one in which he attained enlightenment.
Taking a good look at myself .. I sure am not anywhere close to being enlightened.
Maybe you are doing a better job than I.
Theoretically it is possible. After all, enlightenment/Nirvana is not a place .. it is a state of mind. And we either are there or we are not. We either stay there or we do not.
It reminds me of Krishnamurti (an Eastern mystic, not a Buddhist) who wrote that "As long as you are a seeker, you will not Find".
And of the Heart Sutra that says "There is no attainment and no non-attainment."
I will post more once I actually know what I am talking about ... once I have attained enlightenment. Please don't hold your breath.
Intrinsic nature? What the hell is that?
(Just a heads-up... you won't be getting a reply....
)
@bookworm
Intrinsic nature? What the hell is that?
I think...
For some Buddhists it's sometimes called Buddha nature.
For secularists, it can refer to the essence of the human nature, as that underlying sense of being separated from the rest of existence.
I read about it, but Its not something that interests me.
So why bother asking then....? Sheeeesh.....
To the point @lobster, my love (XO) - it can be a fatal blow, a felafel, and a blow fly all at once, not least if it not be a little bit befuddled in the way it gets to where it's going....
Chasing white rabbits, Let the Alice's do it from now on - what time is it?
I've been noticing space recently as part of the 6-element practice, it's fascinating.
@SpinyNorman
Space element?
You mean space around you and the object you are facing or?
It helps you to trancend suffering in some kind of way?
Iam just querious since I have just focused (sometimes) on the 4 other elements, wather, wind, earth, and fire.
No, I think he actually means "outer" space... you know, the stars, planets and all that....
I think....
Wow, that sounds cool...so it is a way to practice with space aswell, it will be intersting to hear how that works out
I think its more like this, at least this is the way I practice from time to time.
Ajahn Sumedho noticing space.
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed040.htm
Yes, I thought that maybe I am mistaken; I think your interpretation of @SpinyNorman's comment is nearer the truth, though knowing his enthusiasm for using his telescope for night-time sightseeing, it's understandable I drew my conclusion...
We could both be right, I suppose...
The suttas focus on internal ( bodily ) space, but I find external space more interesting. It could be noticing the space in a room or noticing space outside, though actually it's more like the same space just interrupted by the building wall - so form obstructs space.
Then you can reflect that space is infinite. Also there seems to be a connection between mental and physical space, still working on that one.
Interestingly, the Japanese, in their aesthetic and minimalist sphere, even ascribe importance to the space between objects, and state that the proportion is just as important as the objects themselves.
Without knowing it, perhaps when tidying up and making the place look neat, we too, shift objects a tiny bit, for appearance's sake...
The space, unimaginatively - or perhaps appropriately, is called 'Ma'... (that fits in nicely with the thread title...!)
I'm familiar with that spacey feeling. As a moderately autistic person I easily "fall" into myself and I can feel a connection between the space around me.
I like the Japanese aesthetics. It's important for me that the objects in my home and garden are in balance with together.
If you wish to know the truth,
then hold to no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.
Indeed, it is due to our grasping and rejecting
that we do not know the true nature of things.
Live neither in the entanglements of outer things,
nor in ideas or feelings of emptiness.
Be serene and at one with things
and erroneous views will disappear by themselves.
Changes that seem to occur in the empty world
we make real only because of our ignorance.
For the Realized mind at one with the Way
all self-centered striving ceases.
Doubts and irresolutions vanish
and the Truth is confirmed in you.
With a single stroke you are freed from bondage;
nothing clings to you and you hold to nothing.
All is empty, clear, self-illuminating,
with no need to exert the mind.
Here, thinking, feeling, understanding, and imagination
are of no value.
In this world "as it really is"
there is neither self nor other-than-self.
Hsin hsin Ming
http://www.mendosa.com/way.html
I love empty spaces, both indoors and outdoors, the bigger the better. Uncluttered is good! I like visiting the Tate Modern because it's such an amazing space, unfortunately the stuff they put in it is mostly rubbish.
Perhaps ...
This is where the sense of emptiness in practice being no less rubbish or of import than sitting comes in again.
Aspects of practice: this is aesthetic, this pleases my sense of art/meditation/practice, this is second class/rubbish/only washing up etc. In other words we categorise and compartmentalise our dharma and experience. The rubbish, art, space or meditation is not external but in our heads ...
In Tate Modern the closer I get to not evaluating, the wider the space for art. The same with meditation, the less I try to 'do it', the more it becomes apparent.
Similar already said here:
Thanks guys
I would bet my eventual awakening that if Buddha had a telescope he would have used it.
It's very difficult to directly observe inner space in your body, it's much easier to notice the space in a room or when outside.