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It would be more correct to say an 'understanding' rather than realisation of 'no-self'.
For some it seems very much a realisation and comprehension of dependent origination and no-self. Those are both important Buddhist understandings and nobody can show you the matrix, you have to see it for yourself.
It is not difficult or painful, the guides have been through it and are passing on their comprehension. [no big deal] Do it, request a guide and let us know if useful. @Earthninja went through it and still has a self . . . http://liberationunleashed.com/register-2/
I can't thank @lobster enough for showing me the site.
I very much still "have a self" it's just seen as an illusion. Some of the time
Haha
Life is just lifing! That's a quoits from them haha.
@SpinyNorman it's a forum whereby you engage in a one on one email correspondence with a guide(someone who has seen no self and done some training in asking basic questions ) they then begin dialogue with you asking basic questions about your direct experience of reality.
You can browse others conversations with other guide. Gives you an Idea. It's also free.
No beliefs, no teachings, just pointing and looking.
I think I will sign up for Nirvana-lite, as the proper one is too much like hard work.
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
That's why teachings on no-self should be called not-self.
People stop making sense when they believe they don't exist.
I'm coming to understand why awakening/enlightenment is so rare in people. This is from personal experience and living people today that I think I understand.
The reason I say I think is because I'm not 100% sure yet.
It seems to me that the reason we are stuck is because we believe in a separate person. (Ourselves) and that person is seeking enlightenment for whatever reason.
I think that awakening / enlightenment is so rare as the label by necessity is exclusionary in nature - despite our best efforts, order is built on a firm foundation of chaos!
It seems like picking up a leaf and declaring it 'Bob', then looking for any other Bob-leaves out there, leading to a conclusion that leaves called Bob are rare!
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
@SpinyNorman said:
Or seen in the context of conventional v. ultimate truth?
Exactly.
It would be nice if the Two Truths of the Middle Way were taught in conjunction with the 4 Noble Truths.
I guess it's all in the Eightfold Path but it can be tough to sort through without the teachings of Nagarjuna or somebody like that.
The teachings of the Two truths make non-self and impermanence so much easier to accept.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
@Earthninja said: @ourself there is a difference between knowing the truth and BEING the truth. What I'm realising is that we already are NOT individuals. We never were. The belief causes pain of separation and the pain of duality. Life already is living itself as @111 said.
Somehow this false idea/ego came along and took ownership of actions, choices, thoughts.
See, now I am with you up until this next part.
When inquired into there is just nothing. No entity anywhere. No sufferer.
Just such strong belief.
When you say this you lose me and start going into the land of la-la. There is no such thing as "nothing" and I would question anyone who claims to have found an "it" that may be called "nothing".
Strong belief is not "nothing" for example.
I would say it's better to know the truth, and THEN come back into the world of "you" and "me "
I would say there is no real choice short of death.
ourself no I'm saying that pain is there. Maybe unpleasant thoughts can be there.
But once no self is seen, then they have no bite anymore. No landing place. the really strong pain or emotions still have that pull of identity but it gets less and less.
It truly is the most liberating thing, have "someone" say a nasty thing at "you" and it have no landing place. Just words in space.
No self is ever seen because it is doing the seeing. Impermanence and non-self are truths because of the constant of change.
Simply, to self is a verb.
I'm bad with words guys, please please just follow lobsters link and check those guys out. They guide you in a one on one environment to see no self via email. No teachings, beliefs, meditations necessary. You just need to look!
You have to remember that many of us here are not unfamiliar with these concepts.
exerpt from The Wise Heart: A Guide To The Universal Teachings Of Buddhist Psychology.
''Selflessness is not a pathologically detached state, disconnected from the world. Nor is it a state where we are caught in a new spiritual identity, ''See how selfless I am.'' Selflessness is always here. In any moment we can let go and experience life without calling it ''me'' or ''mine.'' As the beloved Tibetan master Kalu Rinpoche has said, ''When you understand, you will see that you are nothing. And being nothing, you are everything." When identification with the small sense of self drops away, what remains is the spacious heart that is connected with all things.'' To say there is a self is not true. To say there is no self is not true. Then what is true? - Ajahn Chah
It is agreed upon by all, not some, masters that self is identification, an illusion. I wouold find it more fruitive by studying what they have to say, than questioning whether the masters are deluded. Try reading some masters teachings - they have liberating potential.
lets be clear. buddhism is following the buddhas core teachings, in a structured, disciplined practice. all schools. A core teaching of the buddha, is compassion. Have either of you shown compassion to me? @federica what is your purpose in that question, as it is clearly not asked out of compassion or hope for my liberation? the comment i placed was out of compassion for all of you, the core teachings of the buddha are core teachings for a reason; they have proven, time and time again, to be effective in liberation. @vinlyn your comments are just about always intended with gaining an intellectual upper hand, once again, opposite of compassion. This site is clearly not for real buddhists, but for skeptics looking for loopholes in what the buddha taught. I hope that whatever is going wrong in your lives and practice, is fixed and you attain the liberation that comes from devoted practice (not devoted skepticism/ putting down).
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place." Sensei Sevan Ross
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
@111 said:
exerpt from The Wise Heart: A Guide To The Universal Teachings Of Buddhist Psychology.
''Selflessness is not a pathologically detached state, disconnected from the world. Nor is it a state where we are caught in a new spiritual identity, ''See how selfless I am.'' Selflessness is always here. In any moment we can let go and experience life without calling it ''me'' or ''mine.'' As the beloved Tibetan master Kalu Rinpoche has said, ''When you understand, you will see that you are nothing. And being nothing, you are everything." When identification with the small sense of self drops away, what remains is the spacious heart that is connected with all things.'' To say there is a self is not true. To say there is no self is not true. Then what is true? - Ajahn Chah
Replace the mistranslated and misused word "nothing" to "not a thing" and it makes more sense.
"' To say there is a self is not true. To say there is no self is not true. Then what is true?" - Ajahn Chah
There is no thing that is the self because the self is action, not a thing.
There is not "a" self because self is a verb.
It is agreed upon by all, not some, masters that self is identification, an illusion. I wouold find it more fruitive by studying what they have to say, than questioning whether the masters are deluded. Try reading some masters teachings - they have liberating potential.
A separate self is an illusion yes.
No offence but you are not qualified to say what all masters agree on.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@111 said:
delete my account, not my comment, please & thank you
Accounts are never deleted, nor closed. You asked me to delete a comment, and I did.
But as for your account, that's your responsibility.
@111 said:
lets be clear. buddhism is following the buddhas core teachings, in a structured, disciplined practice. all schools. A core teaching of the buddha, is compassion. Have either of you shown compassion to me? federica what is your purpose in that question, as it is clearly not asked out of compassion or hope for my liberation? the comment i placed was out of compassion for all of you, the core teachings of the buddha are core teachings for a reason; they have proven, time and time again, to be effective in liberation. vinlyn your comments are just about always intended with gaining an intellectual upper hand, once again, opposite of compassion. This site is clearly not for real buddhists, but for skeptics looking for loopholes in what the buddha taught. I hope that whatever is going wrong in your lives and practice, is fixed and you attain the liberation that comes from devoted practice (not devoted skepticism/ putting down).
Translation: If you disagree with what I believe, you are not compassionate.
Therefore, when Buddha went out seeking a different path, he was being not-compassionate.
@vinlyn , what purpose did that comment serve? once again, not to liberate me or show compassion. case in point. all of your comments are in disagreement; anything that YOU disagree with is wrong. hipocritical of you to push that trait to me
indeed, exploiting the buddha for entertainment and not being a real practitioner is a joke to you. i wuldn't expect that knowledge to effect you at all, let alone change it. i still love you people and i wish you all liberation.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited June 2015
We love you too. And believe it or not, that's true.
And just for the record, we have NOT exploited the Buddha for entertainment.
If we're guilty of doing anything like that, we may have exploited the discussion for the sake of entertainment....
We're not an anally-retentive serious bunch around here, but that does not imply we are NOT 'real practitioners'.
Thanissaro Bikkhu has a wicked sense of humour....
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I am unsure what got you upset but really there is no need to leave.
Because we disagree is no reason to put up fences. Talking these things out helps us to grow in our understanding and even helps our sense of compassion.
One of the things that is so appealing about Buddhism, as compared to other religions, is the freedom of thought that it offers. And as soon as you have freedom of thought, you will have the emergence of different viewpoints. Sometimes out and out disagreements. Sometimes differences in interpretation.
Having disagreements has nothing to do with compassion. Having inappropriate disagreements does.
Don't worry about @vinlyn and @federica. There are people from all backgrounds on this forum. just because people use the label 'buddhist' doesn't mean they are alike. In anyway!
People even debate the four noble truths...
@ourself I think you are over analysing the words and not seeing what I'm pointing at.
When I say nothing, it's referencing non-self.
I'll try an analogy- if you have a pen on a table, then you take the pen away. What are you looking at ? (Absence of pen) you can't look at an absence of something! There's nothing! That's what I meant. I wasn't talking about belief as nothing.
You also said "You have to remember that many of us here are not unfamiliar with these concepts."
The reason i said you should look at the link is because if you did you wouldn't refer to this as a concept anymore. It's non conceptual.
But only if you LOOK not think!
Metta to you!!
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited June 2015
@Earthninja said:
ourself I think you are over analysing the words and not seeing what I'm pointing at.
When I say nothing, it's referencing non-self.
I'll try an analogy- if you have a pen on a table, then you take the pen away. What are you looking at ? (Absence of pen) you can't look at an absence of something! There's nothing! That's what I meant. I wasn't talking about belief as nothing.
I'd be looking at a table.
You also said "You have to remember that many of us here are not unfamiliar with these concepts."
The reason i said you should look at the link is because if you did you wouldn't refer to this as a concept anymore. It's non conceptual.
But only if you LOOK not think!
"' To say there is a self is not true. To say there is no self is not true. Then what is true?"
In your original post you stated that there is no self.
The reason I said many of us are not unfamiliar with these concepts is because it is not new information. I've seen the link and I know the teachings of non-self.
Giving up all that is dear and true to oneself isn't going to be a walk in the park. Never was and never will be.
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Heck, it doesn't even have to be given up. Only the ownership does. The appreciation doesn't have to be dampened for a lack of permanence.
If we have a meditation practice and are able to focus a little or even just examining where this sense of identity or consciousness exists, is very simple.
You want to 'find yourself'? Look for it.
When you hear birdsong as I am now, am 'I' hearing. No?
Is there any 'I' in the Ipad I am looking at? No?
Am I in the sensations I experience in the body? No?
Yet this is how the 'I' being arises. In each dependent experience.
What is the I in memories, in pain, in Dukkha, in cornflakes?
Find this I.
"Oh, Sariputra, Form Does not Differ From the Void,
And the Void Does Not Differ From Form.
Form is Void and Void is Form;
The Same is True For Feelings,
Perceptions, Volitions and Consciousness." http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/heartstr.htm
... when you have found this I being, this independent 'consciousness' you will stop twittering about rebirth as if there is something that is reborn.
Truth too hard? Hard for what or who? Find it.
You are the same you and I.
We are Nothing. True? Any 'I' in the words ... etc etc etc ...
@ourself damn it! I meant non self not no self. Obviously something exists. but it's not this damn 'person' haha. I now see why you were talking about no self as a concept. Non self is what I'm referring to.
Comments
"Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened persons, only enlightened actions."
-- Shunryu Suzuki, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind
It would be more correct to say an 'understanding' rather than realisation of 'no-self'.
For some it seems very much a realisation and comprehension of dependent origination and no-self. Those are both important Buddhist understandings and nobody can show you the matrix, you have to see it for yourself.
It is not difficult or painful, the guides have been through it and are passing on their comprehension. [no big deal] Do it, request a guide and let us know if useful. @Earthninja went through it and still has a self . . .
http://liberationunleashed.com/register-2/
I can't thank @lobster enough for showing me the site.
I very much still "have a self" it's just seen as an illusion. Some of the time
Haha
Life is just lifing! That's a quoits from them haha.
What is that site all about then?
If that's true @Earthninja then please show your 'self' ....I gave up looking for mine
@SpinyNorman it's a forum whereby you engage in a one on one email correspondence with a guide(someone who has seen no self and done some training in asking basic questions
) they then begin dialogue with you asking basic questions about your direct experience of reality.
You can browse others conversations with other guide. Gives you an Idea. It's also free.
No beliefs, no teachings, just pointing and looking.
@Shoshin keep looking.
Not rare. I just don't talk about it....
"Awakening - Why so rare?"
Impatience perhaps
I should have put 'fully awakened' haha. Whatever that is supposed to mean.
metta
I wrote "should of put". In the above but I remembered @federica grammar 101.
I think I will sign up for Nirvana-lite, as the proper one is too much like hard work.
That's why teachings on no-self should be called not-self.
People stop making sense when they believe they don't exist.
No human being, just being human.
Or seen in the context of conventional v. ultimate truth?
I think that awakening / enlightenment is so rare as the label by necessity is exclusionary in nature - despite our best efforts, order is built on a firm foundation of chaos!
It seems like picking up a leaf and declaring it 'Bob', then looking for any other Bob-leaves out there, leading to a conclusion that leaves called Bob are rare!
@Zero;
That was pretty good.
Exactly.
It would be nice if the Two Truths of the Middle Way were taught in conjunction with the 4 Noble Truths.
I guess it's all in the Eightfold Path but it can be tough to sort through without the teachings of Nagarjuna or somebody like that.
The teachings of the Two truths make non-self and impermanence so much easier to accept.
See, now I am with you up until this next part.
When you say this you lose me and start going into the land of la-la. There is no such thing as "nothing" and I would question anyone who claims to have found an "it" that may be called "nothing".
Strong belief is not "nothing" for example.
I would say there is no real choice short of death.
No self is ever seen because it is doing the seeing. Impermanence and non-self are truths because of the constant of change.
Simply, to self is a verb.
You have to remember that many of us here are not unfamiliar with these concepts.
exerpt from The Wise Heart: A Guide To The Universal Teachings Of Buddhist Psychology.
''Selflessness is not a pathologically detached state, disconnected from the world. Nor is it a state where we are caught in a new spiritual identity, ''See how selfless I am.'' Selflessness is always here. In any moment we can let go and experience life without calling it ''me'' or ''mine.'' As the beloved Tibetan master Kalu Rinpoche has said, ''When you understand, you will see that you are nothing. And being nothing, you are everything." When identification with the small sense of self drops away, what remains is the spacious heart that is connected with all things.'' To say there is a self is not true. To say there is no self is not true. Then what is true? - Ajahn Chah
It is agreed upon by all, not some, masters that self is identification, an illusion. I wouold find it more fruitive by studying what they have to say, than questioning whether the masters are deluded. Try reading some masters teachings - they have liberating potential.
metta to you all.
Question 1: What is a "master"?
Question 2: You have evidence that every "master" out there believes exactly that same thing?
lol..eternal skeptics of the masters...no point debating. metta to you
Well if there's no point debating, why say there's no point debating? or does the question's answer elude you?
If "all masters" agreed upon these issues we would not have so many different schools (sects) of Buddhism.
The problem I'm having is with some of these unreasonably broad (am unprovable) statements that some people make.
lets be clear. buddhism is following the buddhas core teachings, in a structured, disciplined practice. all schools. A core teaching of the buddha, is compassion. Have either of you shown compassion to me? @federica what is your purpose in that question, as it is clearly not asked out of compassion or hope for my liberation? the comment i placed was out of compassion for all of you, the core teachings of the buddha are core teachings for a reason; they have proven, time and time again, to be effective in liberation. @vinlyn your comments are just about always intended with gaining an intellectual upper hand, once again, opposite of compassion. This site is clearly not for real buddhists, but for skeptics looking for loopholes in what the buddha taught. I hope that whatever is going wrong in your lives and practice, is fixed and you attain the liberation that comes from devoted practice (not devoted skepticism/ putting down).
Question question, question.
Challenge, challenge, challenge.
Enquire, enquire, enquire.
Confront, confront, confront.
If, and only IF all avenues lead to satisfaction, then accept and live by.
If something jars of goes against the grain - it should remain open to scrutiny and discernment.
delete my account, not my comment, please & thank you
"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place."
Sensei Sevan Ross
I wish you well @111
sradda and prajna
Replace the mistranslated and misused word "nothing" to "not a thing" and it makes more sense.
"' To say there is a self is not true. To say there is no self is not true. Then what is true?" - Ajahn Chah
There is no thing that is the self because the self is action, not a thing.
There is not "a" self because self is a verb.
A separate self is an illusion yes.
No offence but you are not qualified to say what all masters agree on.
Accounts are never deleted, nor closed. You asked me to delete a comment, and I did.
But as for your account, that's your responsibility.
Translation: If you disagree with what I believe, you are not compassionate.
Therefore, when Buddha went out seeking a different path, he was being not-compassionate.
@vinlyn , what purpose did that comment serve? once again, not to liberate me or show compassion. case in point. all of your comments are in disagreement; anything that YOU disagree with is wrong. hipocritical of you to push that trait to me
and now you want to use the buddha as an example, to prove me wrong , but in all other instances of the buddhas teachings yu are a skeptic
I thought you were going?
See, Ego can never resist wanting the last word.
Oh....hang on.......
Damn.....
@federica back to gang up on me with @vinlyn , very compassionate and noble of you
neither of you are devoted practitioners
Oh lighten up, it's just a forum, not a University International Mooting Competition!
And you joining in makes you just as 'compassionate and noble'... doesn't it? Takes two to tango, I believe....
I think I'm gonna cry.
indeed, exploiting the buddha for entertainment and not being a real practitioner is a joke to you. i wuldn't expect that knowledge to effect you at all, let alone change it. i still love you people and i wish you all liberation.
We love you too. And believe it or not, that's true.
And just for the record, we have NOT exploited the Buddha for entertainment.
If we're guilty of doing anything like that, we may have exploited the discussion for the sake of entertainment....
We're not an anally-retentive serious bunch around here, but that does not imply we are NOT 'real practitioners'.
Thanissaro Bikkhu has a wicked sense of humour....
@111;
I am unsure what got you upset but really there is no need to leave.
Because we disagree is no reason to put up fences. Talking these things out helps us to grow in our understanding and even helps our sense of compassion.
agreement and disagreement probably come from the eight worldly wins: gain/loss, pleasure/pain, fame/infamy, praise/blame..
One of the things that is so appealing about Buddhism, as compared to other religions, is the freedom of thought that it offers. And as soon as you have freedom of thought, you will have the emergence of different viewpoints. Sometimes out and out disagreements. Sometimes differences in interpretation.
Having disagreements has nothing to do with compassion. Having inappropriate disagreements does.
@111 please don't go! I value your input!
Don't worry about @vinlyn and @federica. There are people from all backgrounds on this forum.
just because people use the label 'buddhist' doesn't mean they are alike. In anyway!
People even debate the four noble truths...
@ourself I think you are over analysing the words and not seeing what I'm pointing at.
When I say nothing, it's referencing non-self.
I'll try an analogy- if you have a pen on a table, then you take the pen away. What are you looking at ? (Absence of pen) you can't look at an absence of something! There's nothing! That's what I meant. I wasn't talking about belief as nothing.
You also said "You have to remember that many of us here are not unfamiliar with these concepts."
The reason i said you should look at the link is because if you did you wouldn't refer to this as a concept anymore. It's non conceptual.
not think!
But only if you LOOK
Metta to you!!
I'd be looking at a table.
Non-self is a truth but no-self is a concept.
Look at that quote @111 posted again.
"' To say there is a self is not true. To say there is no self is not true. Then what is true?"
In your original post you stated that there is no self.
The reason I said many of us are not unfamiliar with these concepts is because it is not new information. I've seen the link and I know the teachings of non-self.
And to you as well, thanks.
Giving up all that is dear and true to oneself isn't going to be a walk in the park. Never was and never will be.
Heck, it doesn't even have to be given up. Only the ownership does. The appreciation doesn't have to be dampened for a lack of permanence.
If we have a meditation practice and are able to focus a little or even just examining where this sense of identity or consciousness exists, is very simple.
You want to 'find yourself'? Look for it.
When you hear birdsong as I am now, am 'I' hearing. No?
Is there any 'I' in the Ipad I am looking at? No?
Am I in the sensations I experience in the body? No?
Yet this is how the 'I' being arises. In each dependent experience.
What is the I in memories, in pain, in Dukkha, in cornflakes?
Find this I.
"Oh, Sariputra, Form Does not Differ From the Void,
And the Void Does Not Differ From Form.
Form is Void and Void is Form;
The Same is True For Feelings,
Perceptions, Volitions and Consciousness."
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/heartstr.htm
... when you have found this I being, this independent 'consciousness' you will stop twittering about rebirth as if there is something that is reborn.
Truth too hard? Hard for what or who? Find it.
You are the same you and I.
We are Nothing. True? Any 'I' in the words ... etc etc etc ...
Hey @anataman. I get the lol part, but what is the ...\ /... for?
@ourself damn it! I meant non self not no self. Obviously something exists.
but it's not this damn 'person' haha. I now see why you were talking about no self as a concept. Non self is what I'm referring to.
@lobster nicely put. Double insightful