Is Enlightenment Just Part Of Ones Practice ? (Where Practice Will Eventually Make Perfect)
Shoshin
No one in particularNowhere Special Veteran
Have you ever read a post/comment/sentence that starts the neurons firing 'profoundly' (the "WOW" factor), but the very next sentence might come across has a load of nonsense (the "WTF" factor ) ..... (It's like little snippets of enlightenment are showing through)
I guess at one time of another we all have had our "profound moments", where what we have said has impacted greatly upon others in a wholesome beneficial way...
So....Could Enlightenment be just an ongoing part of ones mundane Practice ? ...where when one has perfected their practice, the door/s stays open so to speak allowing profanities (Oopss 
) profundities to flow freely ...
"Just practice good, do good for others, without thinking of making yourself known so that you may gain reward. Really bring benefit to others, gaining nothing for yourself. This is the primary requisite for breaking free of attachments to the Self."
"Practice is not separate from Enlightenment-Enlightenment and Practice are one ! "
Food for the thoughtful and or the thoughtless.... (Not sure if it makes much sense though)
Comments
I think it's gradual and progressive.
Does it make a difference to you to know if enlightenment is possible? Or to have 'glimpses'? Are these glimpses meaningful? By glimpses I am not sure what they are to each person.
But would your practice be any different if you knew there was no way to reach 'enlightenment'? If so then right in the here and now then we would have to say that it made a difference in your practice.
I think so too, but I also have a-ha moments, so there's also fits and starts to it.
I think these glimpses are very nourishing to practice, and quite inspiring. It might be a meditative experience, it might be the experience of looking at things in a very different way.
I think enlightenment is simply a different way of looking at what is already here. This moment.
It's a shift in ones perspective.
Ignorance is thinking the illusions are real, awakening is waking up to what is really going on.
If enlightenment is simply realising what is really going on, How far must we travel to reach it?
If a person is seeking it for peace or happiness they miss the point. You can't ever escape this moment. You are it.
@Shoshin
A thought or two..
Enlightenment is just the Buddhist word for an awakening from our dream that self and other exists.
Enlightenment usually manifests in sequentially deeper expressions of itself in accord with both the sincerity of ones practice and how long that practice is actually sustained for. Enlightenment runs the gambit from momentary to unmeasurable but most importantly, it** is** the natural potential inheritance of all willing to challenge the dream of their own ignorance.
Dogens particularly clever teaching of Enlightenment and practice being one, stemmed from his need to address his spiritual competitors of the day that sometimes offered the possibility of eventual enlightenment without the need for zazen, whereas he was asserting that within his school, both being one, made both possible** immediately.**
The best sales presentation was Dogen's but it also relegated him to set up his temple far away from any established towns and his resentful spiritual peers of the day.
What's wrong with seeking peace and happiness? I agree that a grasping approach to practice is unproductive, but without the seeking there would be no motivation to practice.
In my view, being enlightened and being 100% aware/awake are not really the same thing.
Being enlightened seems to be being privy to life changing information whereas being awake and 100% aware is being in a mindful state at all times. So being enlightened is not the same thing as being awake and so for me, they are not inter-changeable terms.
I've heard it said that we don't practice because we seek to be enlightened, we are enlightened because we seek to practice... But what is the practice?
Waking up.
Just a view from here.
All - the - time. I get to read more posts than most....
Er...no it isn't....
I really wouldn't like to say that. The effect is for others to judge, not for me to assume...
Of course not. Enlightenment is the TERMINATION of one's mundane practice.
Perfect your practice. Then let us know.
Never too late to begin where we are right now...
In theory....
Keep chewing....
I read somewhere about enlightenment being a "turning about in the deepest seat of consciousness", I'll see if I can find the reference.
But practically speaking I assume that an enlightened person would just be naturally mindful at all times, no effort required. That would be nice!
Wouldn't it though?
It would seem that too many groups have their own idea of what enlightenment is and so it almost seems to create more confusion than it clears up once a definition is posted.
I suppose as long as the imaginary lines between self and other have been seen through, that's the main thing.
But that doesn't always take care of everything. Most of us here know that much but we still experience dukkha.
Which would make your point valid that it's a gradual thing even if there are a lot of epiphanies along the way.
Though "awake" could also mean different things to different people.
What a pain in the arse.
We really do need to develop telepathy or something so we can clear up all this stuff.
If only we could all just see the whole truth in a single flower and smile at each other knowingly!
And then of course get back to work.
Nothing inherently wrong with it
, it's what all humans do anyway. We do it in different ways but we all want happiness and peace right?
It's why people want promotions at work, it's why people want a new car, that holiday, a loving partner, enlightenment.
When you have all this? Are we then happy? It never happens. That chasing peace and happiness is us as humans failing to see there is never permanent happiness. We take a sensation and say, now I am happy. All sensations pass then now I am unhappy,
I know what you mean though, there must be a drive to free ourselves from this dukkha. But if we are chasing happiness and peace we haven't really left the rat race. It's all to do with how we see things right?
@Earthninja;
That's why I feel the pursuit of happiness is a silly right to ask for.
We should just be happy.
Sometimes life is happy and sometimes it is sad.
I'm happy with that.
You're preaching to the choir. Everyone here KNOWS these things do not lead to true, inner happiness. That's not the kind of 'happiness' @SpinyNorman is talking about...
No. it's all to do with letting go.
When I say peace and happiness this can include your version of "true inner happiness"
@fedetrica
If you see that fire burns your hands, you don't have to try to let go of putting your hands in. I'm talking about maya/ignorance.
When you see the world as maya, you let go.
You can't let go by force. You need to see it first. Letting go comes after, and it happens as a result.
Sure, that's what Buddhist practice is for.
To let go without throwing.
Or any practice that turns attention inwards in an observing way. It then becomes habit. It's great.
Let go without throwing, that's a good saying.
Repeating what one has read has merit but far more useful are the words of the awake.
How about listening to someone who knows:
There are plenty of examples of people who speak from experience ...
Enlightenment is seeing reality as it is, and being able to remain equanimous despite which.
Same eyes, different perspective.
Higher ground.
@Jeffrey,
Dogen said :
I've found by keeping it simple and making the practice centred around the above, plus daily meditation practice, the self-propelling five aggregates tend to flow in a more harmonious karmic manner...(Perhaps this comes from the non-experiences had during cushion time)
So in a sense it makes no difference to my practice whether or not enlightenment is possible...
Also @how kindly reminded us that enlightenment _is just another term for _awakening, which can be immediate or gradual, and at this 'moment' in time I'm in no great hurry
WOW moments are good when you're in a bit of a rut _ they let you see things more clearly, so you don't lose your nut!
"Samsara=Mind turned outward lost in its projection-
Nirvana=Mind turned inward reflecting upon its true nature !"
Strange as it may seem, I feel this is often the right attitude once we have a regular path practice.
Many people feel:
That sort of monkeying practice will be as inconsequential as the commitment, expression and understanding.
Dharma is a personal implementation and effort, not a casual fad, cure for agitation or judgement on others. It is our digestion not chewing and spewing others understanding.
WTF. What a load of nonsense! (and of course it is all mine) ...
Must be time for me and my smart mouth to practice.
Well there's a couple of hours I'll never get back then... thanks so much for starting the thread!
Practising to 'become' enlightened is somewhat fool hearted (If one does not know what enlightenment 'is'/entails)
True but you can't ever know what it is until it happens. Maybe drop ideas you have about it right?
I think trying to conceptualise enlightenment is trying to describe to someone what green looks like. If you've never seen green.
I'd leave Enlightenment or Nirvana's definitions or road maps
to the only absence of self likely to get the invite.
Now this at least aught to be entertaining.
You don't need a road map when the path is a straight one.
That reminds me of a huge featureless mowed field that I used to cut diagonally
across to get to my elementary school.
The dew that was removed from the grass with my passage clearly revealed my steps and even though I thought i was just walking in a straight line, you might of thought that it had been walked by a drunk.
Even when that drunken looking passage was laughingly pointed out by my teachers in the school that overlooked that field, my future attempts at correcting my morning meanderings did little to represent a straightened course.
There might be such a thing as a straight path but I am not so sure about the folks walking it.
There are no straight lines in [Buddha] nature!
Ajañña Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.013.than.html
The Buddha taught that what matters the most is suffering and how it can be ended. It doesn't matter how you label it, enlightened, awake, arahant, Buddha. All that is important is whether you still have dukkha and is it gone for good?
When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.
If you cannot find freedom from suffering right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?
Tibet, Himalayas, River Ganges, Golden Dome, under the Bodhi tree?
http://www.buddhanet.net/oxherd1.htm
The Ten Oxherding pictures remind us that enlightenment - whenever it happens - is still just part of the practice. There's still an important part of practice afterwards.
"Don't practice to become enlightened-Let your practice be the natural expression of your enlightenment !"
There's heaps of literature on what Enlightenment is meant to be and also on the behaviour of so-called "Enlightened Beings" and how they have one thing in common....it would seem they dedicate their lives to helping others…
So do they know something we don't know ?
What’s stopping us from letting our practice be the natural expression of our enlightenment ?(Even if this knowledge of what enlightenment is, is somewhat secondhand) "If you don't feel that you're enlightened-you can always try to be !"
In other words (depending upon the karmic pattern one finds one 'self' in) if one is in a fortunate position (that is, healthy in both body & mind ) to be able to help others to help them selves to be free from suffering , and can enjoy doing so...then why not just do it....
"Why put off until tomorrow what can be done today!"
True
"Before enlightenment
After enlightenment
@Shoshin hey thanks for the thoughtful reply. I appreciate what you are saying
The whole Bodhisattva thing sounds like a fairy tale to me. (How dare I?!)
How many Bodhisattvas do we know in this day? (Someone who had out off Nirvana to show others the way)
How do they even know what Nirvava is?
Most importantly I've heard words (from what I believe) to be awakened beings. They are trying to show others, but they haven't "put off" nirvana. Do we disappear into nothingness when we wake up? Why can't we wake up and help people?
Also I feel like the above Bodhisattva approach, to show people how to wake up. When one hasn't done it themselves seems like a hindrance. They could be leading them completely in the wrong direction. (With good intentions )
Helping people from suffering is a great thing within us, we all do our best and it is something we need more of.
But help in the wrong direction regardless of intention is not necessarily good. Humans are trying to save the planet yet destroying it at the sane time. Why?
Because we don't even know what we are.
I'm always dubious about someone who tries to show someone else who they are. But they don't know themselves.
Good intentions with wrong understanding doesn't help.
That's probably the biggest load of BS I've read in a long time.
If people are putting themselves out there to help others, frankly, if they're trying and doing good, I don't really give a damn whether they 'know who they are'.
Actions speak louder than words.
I give a damn if someone is imperfect (oh hang on - we ALL are!) it's what their kindness and compassion DOES, that matters.
If people are putting themselves out there to help others, frankly, if they're trying and doing good, I don't really give a damn whether they 'know who they are'.
Actions speak louder than words.
I give a damn if someone is imperfect (oh hang on - we ALL are!) it's what their kindness and compassion DOES, that matters.
Please don't misunderstand me, if someone is acting like a teacher and going around and trying to save sentient beings by showing them the path to enlightenment, that's what I question. If they don't know it themselves.
I'm not saying don't try to help others.
Haha.
I hate to break this to you, but that just about covers every 'teacher' there is. Pema Chodron, The Dalai Lama, TNH, Lama Surya Das and anyone else of prominence you can think of.
They all demonstrate and lay out the path.
I have never heard any one of them claim to be enlightened, yet they show the path.
I have no way of knowing whether they 'know themselves' or not.
I actually think that if you were to ask them whether they 'know themselves' they would probably not all answer in the same way, commit, concur or answer in the affirmative.
I actually don't think it's all that important.
I don't care whether someone knows themselves or not.
The question is what they DO, not who they are.
I think it's enough that they know more than we do. We make our own decisions about what to do with the information.
Sadhguru, Tolle, Mooji, Papaji, etc. these guys don't hesitate to answer questions about who they are, and they point the way.
They even talk about their awakenings, they don't like to. But they do never the less.
(I haven't ever heard of a single one of those dudes, apart form Tolle.)
Tolle has had an enlightenment, but even he hesitates to declare he is.
I'm resistant towards those who proclaim they are.
Particularly when nobody seems to agree what "enlightenment" actually consists of.
They are from various backgrounds, maybe that's why. They won't come up under a Buddhist umbrella I guess.
The others don't either , they do questions and answers seminars sometimes and often people ask them. Mostly they return the question inward to the questioner but once or twice they have described their own awakenings. Same as Tolle.
I guess it's not really something "a person gets" so it's weird talking about it. But why wouldn't someone if it helps others?
If they have on their name John Doe PHD, enlightened being, I would be sceptical. Or on a flyer. But I don't see why you couldn't talk to people about it. Is it that Taboo?
The fact some people do, makes me sceptical of those who won't answer. Or dodge the question. Maybe they are the saints but not enlightened saints. Not taking anything away from saints. We need those people.
I've lost track of what the thread is supposed to be about.
I don't think it's a good idea to wait until we think we're enlightened to try to ease the suffering of others. By then we may be no good to anyone.
That's fine, as long as you don't proclaim to have some method of enlightenment. We just ease suffering in the best way we can.
After all we are all on this planet. All of our ancestors and theirs. Kings and villains. The only home we've ever known.
The pale blue dot - Carl Sagan.
Many people that claim a method to enlightenment are speaking from ego and end up doing the opposite of helping.
Someone that has never even heard of enlightenment could be the catalyst of another's awakening simply by helping in a skillful way.
For me, the code of the Bodhisattva is not to put off waking up but to vow that helping others is more of a priority than my own release.
I would never proclaim enlightenment even if I was 100% awake/aware because action is truth and the truth speaks for itself.
@ourself I can totally understand the vow from that regard, I think it's really noble. Like what you wrote there. ^^^ nice.
Action definitely speaks louder than words, there is no doubt. The ones out there making a difference are true saints.
Well said ourself