The five precepts - How strict?
Earthninja
WandererWest Australia Veteran
Namaste,
I recently listened to an Alan Watts lecture while doing the dishes. He was explaining the middle way as a teaching.
Anyways so he included the 5 precepts but caught me by surprise when we put them like this.
Do not kill - killing people is going to get you in all sorts of trouble. Obviously.
So not steal - Again if you steal you are bound for hot water, how can you live a moral life if you steal?
Exploiting the passions - if you try and fill the hole in your life with things like binge eating. You are only creating more problems for yourself.
Falsifying speech - if you lie to someone, you are only going to have to later cover up the first one with another. This can lead to all sorts of problems.
Intoxication - same as the exploiting the passions. Filling that whole in your life with alcohol.
Now I found this really interesting, because this was little more than basic guidelines for people. I really liked his common sense spin on this stuff. But it is different than some other traditions.
Do not kill - anything at all
Do not take what is not given
Do not exploit passions in anyway including sense pleasure.
Do not lie or gossip or talk about anything that doesn't benefit mankind/earth.
Do not take any intoxicants including coffee.
I am generalising but I've heard it been said as the above. It seems like a scale to me. I mean if you read the actual Sutta, the alcohol listed is three types of unknown alcohol. One was like a cider. It didn't include drugs but we can infer the drugs into this.
So my question is the precepts just a broad guideline or a strict practice?
Does it matter? 
Thanks guys.
Comments
For those in monastic life I guess it would matter...
However for me personally I just see them as broad guidelines, that at the beginning of each day I make an attempt to fulfil...But I don't beat my 'self' up if "I" slip up...I pick my 'self' up dust my 'self' off start all over again
The most important thing to remember is that the first one covers all the others.
The first one is the clincher. The others merely expand to detail the areas a layperson should use skill, mindfulness and vigilance.
How you interpret them is up to your discernment.
it all shows up as Kamma, doesn't it?
It matters.
I am very lax in my severity. However there is a time for tightening.
@Earthninja
All precepts mimic enlightened behavior as a manifestation of ceasing from evil, doing only good and the purifying of the heart/mind.
Ones commitment to keeping the precepts is really the same as ones commitment to travel the path towards suffering's cessation.
Are those commitments broad or strict?
For a layman the consequences of perceptual breakages are the suffering that you cause for everyone. The same occurs for the ordained except that some perceptual breakages will also cost you your right to remain a monk or nun.
So do we go as far as feels right for ourselves? Or do we take this stuff literally and work hard for it?
Hmm would a monk who follows all 20000 rules be more at peace and joyful than a lay person who follows 5?
Cheers guys,
We have that choice....
...he has an obligation.
What tradition say not to drink coffee? Never heard of that!
It's a stimulant. I think it comes under the 5th....
For lay-Buddhists I think it's the spirit of the precepts which is most important, being mindful of our actions. So they are like a reminder of what skillful behaviour looks like, eventually it becomes more natural.
For most of us, living in 21st century sugar (and lots of E numbers) are simulants. Broadly speaking healthier to address why we need them to live healthier life.(a twopence of comment from a lay beginner
)
Gawd blimey, I couldn't get by wivart a bit of stimerlashun, nuffink like a nice cup of Rosy Lee....
Rosy Lee? Luxury!!
if coffee is not allowed, then i think tea would also be not allowed, then how come tea meditation came into picture?
Because he would be avoiding suffering in that many number of ways, so less suffering, in a way more peace.
All that follow precepts. Coffee is a stimulant, an adddictive drug.
My name is Lobster and I am a mud (slang) addict.
The Tea ceremony is not Buddhist, in its entirety, and is peculiar to the Japanese Tradition...
Plenty of asian monks drink caffeinated tea. It's the same as coffee and it's not considered a precepts violation because it does not cause a person to become mentally intoxicated. In other words, coffee will not cause you to run around outside screaming naked.
My temple serves coffee as well as tea.
Damn. Ok, I'll try something else.....
Burmese I think it was, like lobster and federica said. It is a drug of sorts and can create a dependency. They allow green tea, but not red tea. Caffeine again.
I think I would suffer more, initially anyway. Eating one meal a day, sleeping on wooden floors, wearing an orange robe. I'm more of a green kind of guy. :P
For me they are just guidelines for living a mindful life. And this is just something personal, rules don't work out very well for me. I drink alcohol from time to time, I eat meat although less and less - and automatically hurting another living being - and I sometimes say bad things to people or do some things that can be categorized as unskilled behaviour. In other words, I ain't no arahant.
I drink coffee, a lot. I see nothing wrong with it, as with all things, moderation.
But I'm new, and dont know much. Cant help but think though, getting bogged down with the rules and cans and cant's kind of goes against the purpose of the whole thing anyway.
" Arrrr, the code be more like guidelines, as it were...."
Keeping precepts is good but it doesn't necessarily mean that you have the virtue loved by the noble ones.
I drink a cup of instant coffee every morning. Yeah, I think they're talking the heavy stuff - uppers etc. I agree, @reb1220 - I don't think the Buddha intended to bog us down with all those rules - probly secretly felt it will wake up those who usually wave off on all common sense ones.
@silver, I agree. I have found that when a faith, practice, philosophy concentrates more on the "Thou Shalt, and Thou shalt Not's", it usually loses a good deal of its purpose.
It is really not that complicated. Just look at any thing we do?
Does doing something in particular or not doing something, represent ceasing from evil, doing only good and purifying body & mind?
Here we simply get to see the priority we give to anything over suffering's cessation and where we don't.
Here we have the complete freedom to suffer
or not.
Correct me if I'm wrong (which in some people's eyes it would seem is always the case
) but didn't the Buddha say something along the lines of "Don't just take my word for it-see for your self" this would also apply to ones understanding of the precepts...
After a while the true nature of the precepts will reveal themselves....
Yeah definitely, I guess if you watch the results of actions you can see why . Then it's clear.
I don't gossip at work, people often try and talk to me about another employee but I just actively listen.
I don't feel better for doing it but If I gossip something doesn't feel right. You can feel how unwholesome it is.
So I think that's what you guys are saying?
I'm sure there are really strict people who follow these per line which is great. Just wanted to see how you guys see these.
I see the precepts more as vows that I do my best to keep. I did use them as guidelines before but I would never see them as "rules" so much.
I do my best not to harm any living beings but I would defend against aggressors and eat chicken.
I do my best not to take what I haven't paid for but I would play Robin Hood if I had to.
I do my best not to engage in or support sexual misconduct but we use protection.
I do my best not to lie but I sometimes withhold the truth to avoid hurt feelings.
I do my best not to ingest substances that produce intoxicating effects except for when those effects are beneficial for healing or if I simply feel like smoking a relatively harmless doobie after a hard day.
Ariyamagga Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.235.than.html
I see it similar to how @ourself does. They are meaningful vows I've decided to uphold, and it motivates me to do my best. This is purely a personal experience, as many profound lay people as well as Tibetan Lamas don't even hold the precepts... Although I think trying to stick to them in even a loose way can be helpful to most people.
Not getting involved in gossip can be quite a challenge. Like you don't get involved and then they're probably gossiping about you too! Oh well.
@SpinyNorman them gossiping about me doesn't hurt as much as actually gossiping. I'm cool with that.
One interpretation of the fifth precept I've heard is not to take substances that cause heedlessness. I'm not sure how true to the source that is, but that's the one I stick by. I stay completely away from alcohol and drugs (except those prescribed for me), but I do drink 2 - 3 cups of coffee/tea a day. More, if I've had a bout of insomnia.
If you've been killing people, you should stop. Or at least cut back. A few people now and then might not be a big deal, but you shouldn't do it to excess.
....and truth told, you can only kill 'em once. No goin' back and doin' it agin....
One can be penny wise and pound foolish in moral behavior I think.
Like the guy I heard of who would reject eating the soup even when the little meatball had been taken out of it. There would most certainly be a meat-molecule or two left in it.
Or someone who rejects a bonbon because there could be a tiny amount of alcohol inside of it.
That is all penny stuff.
The pound is in our choices in life; in being there for our partners, for our children; in being honest with the people we live with and so on.
An open heart means more than “moral” austerity.
Not in this life anyway
Must cut back on preparations for zombi apocalypse ...
... sorry could not kill that irresistible urge ...
Mmm, brains! [drool]
Yes we might only be excessive coffee drinkers
[lobster tries to hang head in shame but is too caffeinated] and time killers utilising zombifying culture but at least we can feel superior to [insert low life precept breakers such as murdersome poet Milerepa] 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milarepa
I iz so goodly!
Vinaya rule #563 "Do not eat brains"
These precepts are what would bring about the best Karma or dhamma in your life because these rules are basically limiting the harm you do to other beings and yourself... so for best results... following the precepts is very good indeed... but we don't all live in a situation where its a natural part of the culture to live this way... sometimes I think that causing yourself suffering or perhaps creating a whole new problem just "to follow rules" is not what the Buddha intended... it should be a goal to live within the precepts ... a goal that may take a long time to accomplish... but if your life involves the use of intoxicants or sexual misconduct or lying or stealing... the least harmful thing may not be to radically change your actions abruptly at all costs... perhaps affecting those around you and yourself in very harmful ways..... I feel you need to work with your surroundings ....your culture ... your samsara ... in order to reach the goal of following all precepts....more of a slow process in order to be living a life where following the precepts is easily attainable and second nature... then you would reap the benefits of living this way confidently ... sharing in the safety and well being of living as harmlessly as possble ...
I'm the guy because it disgusts me if there is any trace of the taste and smell of meat in my food. Maybe it's a joke for someone else but not for me
.
I see the precepts as guidelines for practice, NOT commandments. If I break them, I'm hindering my practice and gaining some bad karma. I am not going to burn in hell or be be cursed by (insert your favorite deity) if I have a beer, or drink too much coffee. An interesting interpretation of the precepts can be found in Thich Nhat Hanh's 14 Mindfulness Trainings. The purpose of the precepts is to train one's mind, not conjure fear of damnation.
I see 3 problems in how people relate to the 5 Precepts:
I think many (maybe even most) Western Buddhists are very lax about the 5 Precepts as a knee-jerk reaction against the 10 Commandments concept of the religion they left.
If it's any help, I recite them every morning and every night, with the Intention to skilfully implement them all. No holds barred.
Honest.
If you say so, I believe you.
"Virtue is like health: the harmony of the whole man."
-Thomas Carlyle
The precepts in all the traditions are essentially identical and are commitments to abstain from harming living beings, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying and intoxication.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Precepts
As a gardener I kill living beings.
Examples of other precept breaking available.
For the worthies:
Thoughts and 'being' - goodwill you might say, is often killed by the holier than thou. Very hard to tread this world without making footsteps and avoiding us ants.
Stealing peoples thoughts before they arise is a great skill. More footprints and interference?
If doing Tantric practice one may engage in complete union with a deity, steal their virtue and then kill their godly being. Worse than some praying mantis?
http://www.dharmadownload.net/pages/english/Natsok/0014_Leksheyling_teaching/leksheyling_teachings_0012.htm
If speaking to everyone according to their understanding are we lying by omission?
As someone intoxicated by thoughts, dharma and practice, I am still hindered.
I luvs my cherry tree
So @vinlyn
What's your personal take on the precepts ? Do you make an effort to adhere to them?