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@Shoshin said:
What's your personal take on the precepts ? Do you make an effort to adhere to them?
I undertake the training rule to abstain from killing. I believe this pertains to killing people and some animals who can truly feel emotion (although I have no idea how to determine that). So yes, I think I do. Others may have a different definition.
I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking what is not given. The last time I remember stealing something was 50 years ago.
I undertake the training rule to avoid sensual misconduct. How to define sensual misconduct? I don't recall hurting anyone physically or emotionally during or as a result of sex.
I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech. Again, what does this really mean? In my adult life, I don't recall ever lying for my own personal gain. I have told "white lies" to spare others pain. What is the greater good (or evil)?
I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness. I have not had a drink of any type in the past 40 years. I have never taken any drug, other than what has been prescribed by doctors or is available legally OTC. I have not had a caffeinated drink in 5 years.
Honest differences in interpretation is an issue with the 5 Precepts.
Otherwise.....
Cut & Pasted from an earlier post...
Correct me if I'm wrong (which in some people's eyes it would seem is always the case ) but didn't the Buddha say something along the lines of "Don't just take my word for it-see for your self" this would also apply to ones understanding of the precepts...
After a while the true nature of the precepts will reveal themselves....
When hearing or reading Dharma text, if over time I experience a 'beneficial' change when applying it in daily life, then it holds some truth....(Be it conventional truth)
Bearing in mind Nietzsche's observation "Everything evolves-will come to mean nothing is true"
@Shoshin, yes but I want to know what the Buddha says. I did not find it in your link to wikipedia - Pali Canon very helpful.
Part of the dharma is hearing the teachings in the first place. If I don't know the teachings then there is nothing to test for myself.
'after a while the precepts reveal themselves' - << Where do you get the idea that they 'reveal themselves'? I didn't receive the secret decoder ring and I have practiced Buddhism 15 years.. just kidding
@Jeffrey said:
Shoshin, yes but I want to know what the Buddha says. I did not find it in your link to wikipedia - Pali Canon very helpful.
Part of the dharma is hearing the teachings in the first place. If I don't know the teachings then there is nothing to test for myself.
'after a while the precepts reveal themselves' - << Where do you get the idea that they 'reveal themselves'? I didn't receive the secret decoder ring and I have practiced Buddhism 15 years.. just kidding
I think they are part and parcel of the EightFold Path, @Jeffrey ie' Right Thought-Speech-Action-etc etc.... that is, the ethical conduct set out by the Buddha, in order to enhance ones practice...And when following the 8FP the truth does reveal itself ....in time....
@vinlyn I like your precepts, although number 3 is not to abstain from "sexual misconduct" but "exploiting the passions"
For some reason people think that's only sexual misconduct.
Exploiting the passions could also be binge eating, going after girls when bored, playing video games, watching tv etc...
Anything like those when used to fill that hole in our lives.
That's it's truest translation anyway. Just an FYI.
@Shoshin nevermind. I was interested in a reference to where Buddha talks about the precept. Thanks though. It makes sense that 5 precepts are part of the ethics part of the 8fp. But again I was interested in a reference where Buddha himself talks about the five precepts.
@Jeffrey said:
Shoshin nevermind. I was interested in a reference to where Buddha talks about the precept. Thanks though. It makes sense that 5 precepts are part of the ethics part of the 8fp. But again I was interested in a reference where Buddha himself talks about the five precepts.
The precepts are also closely related to developing Right Intention, which is "Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness."
@Earthninja said:
vinlyn I like your precepts, although number 3 is not to abstain from "sexual misconduct" but "exploiting the passions"
For some reason people think that's only sexual misconduct.
Exploiting the passions could also be binge eating, going after girls when bored, playing video games, watching tv etc...
Anything like those when used to fill that hole in our lives.
That's it's truest translation anyway. Just an FYI.
I just took the wording from a source on the internet. Nothing I made up.
Just out of curiosity, where did you come up with that as being the truest translation?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@vinlyn said: Just out of curiosity, where did you come up with that as being the truest translation?
Indeed. I was about to ask for a reference/link/source, please, @Earthninja
Not doubting. Sounds eminently logical, but it would be nice to know the origin....
Some people claim all spokes of the N8P are interchangeable, others uphold Morality lies at the outset of the Path because unskillful behaviour is more conducive to strengthen the defilements of greed, hatred and delusion.
The energy that does not get squandered in the passion battlefield, gets channelled into wisdom and equanimity.
So the road to begins with skillful, moderate behaviour.
I have never killed any form of life. I have never stolen anything.
The other precepts are grey areas to me by which the measuring stick I use is: will my decision to indulge in this behaviour increase my suffering or another sentient being's?
Right Speech is always a work in progress with me.
Intoxicants? I enjoy drinking alcohol with a good meal or in good company without getting drunk, nor doing anything improper with the excuse of a clouded mind.
Have never done drugs, though.
And I'm a lost, darned green tea drinker.
Sexual misconduct? I have never forced anyone into doing anything against their will.
The precepts are guidelines, and I agree that we more we stick by them, the less swayed we'll be by the vagaries of fortune.
But I don't use them to berate myself when I fail to abide by them.
I heard it was otherwise by Alan Watts who studies the origins in Pali and Sanskrit. "The real eightfold path - Alan Watts" YouTube lol.
I then looked it up 3.Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
Kamesu - fulfilling the desires
Micchacara - wrong behaviour
Veramani - abstinence
Sikkhapadam - precept, rule, instruction,
Samadiyami - takes upon or with oneself
*in Sanskrit kamesumacchara is Kamadhikara - influence of passion or desires
From "A new course in reading Pali - entering the word of the Buddha"
Ever since the bible I don't trust these loose translations, people always put their own interpretations in. Who knows how many of the discourses have been interpreted wrongly and we quote them as the words of Buddha.
Ahh well. Pali/Sanskrit school here we come!
It's so hard to wrap our minds around the difference between rules and precepts, isn't it? We aren't hardwired for rules of conduct that don't come with a threat of punishment if not followed. It takes a lot of maturity to look at a rule and see it's for your benefit to follow it.
When told there is some rule that restricts our behavior, our minds say, "Don't do that...or what? Who will get angry? So what's going to happen if I do that?" A rule that is not enforced is ignored. The 10 commandments are obeyed (such that they are) because God will get angry with you if you don't. Period. Not because stealing hurts people.
But any list of rules can only go so far and actually becomes counter-productive if you start getting obsessive about it. The rules become more important than the people they're designed to help. After all, people are good at justifying their actions. You'd think "Thou shalt not kill" would be a pretty clear rule to follow, but Christians manage to find wiggle room around it throughout history.
So you have a Precept that says "Avoid intoxicants". Or what? Who's going to get angry? Nobody. Is it a "or you'll be sorry!" kind of warning, like don't dive into the shallow end of a pool? Not necessarily. I have a six pack of light beer in the fridge right now and eventually I'll feel like having a cold one while I sit on the porch in the hot summer. Will it hurt me? No. Do I feel guilty? No.
But I know what the Precept is telling me. It's saying alcohol has played a role in causing a whole buttload of human misery. It's a reminder and a warning. But not drinking doesn't make me a Buddhist. If I follow every Precept religiously that does not make me a Buddhist. It does, however, make me a good person to be around.
silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
edited July 2015
@vinlyn said 'And (sorry @nakazcid) some see them only as a way to train one's mind. For what? If I just want to "train my mind" I can play chess. Personally, I see the Precepts as training one to not do what the Precept says to not do.'
~~~
I agree with your view on this topic, Vinnie (I like that nickname - hope you do). Yep, the ol' reverse psychology - which my mother finally gave up In exasperation and said one day when I was older that she could never use reverse psychology on me because I knew what I wanted/didn't want, heh. (That would have to be checkers for me. )
I recently listened to an Alan Watts lecture while doing the dishes. He was explaining the middle way as a teaching.
Do not take any intoxicants including coffee.
So my question is the precepts just a broad guideline or a strict practice?
Does it matter?
I think some precepts apply more to some than others. Many here, for example, could drink alcohol, no problems, and no-one would be harmed.
Me? Nay! When I start drinking, all bets are off. So that precept is a biggie for me.
However, Alan Watts is one of my favourite alcoholics; it's such a shame he couldn't stick with that one.
There are tremendously great benefits in keeping precepts. They pretty much go hand in hand with meditation practice and every other practice as well. Personally I think people who are able to keep them are blessed in a way because not everyone has that opportunity. It really depends on one's lifestyle and profession whether or not precepts can be kept sometimes. Where there's a will there's a way I guess. How strict should we follow the precepts you say? As faith and confidence builds in one's practice, perhaps by then it does not really matter. It could just be a matter of finding peace and living peacefully. Which could be something more naturally done than having to add anything extra.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2015
I remember many years ago, watching a documentary on the little-known and fairly anonymous Tradition of Zoroastrianism. Absolutely fascinating...
Their Motto Is 'Think Good Thoughts, Say Good Words, Do Good Deeds' and frankly, I was quite knocked sideways by its frank, deep and fundamentl simplicity and Truth.
The interviewer was speaking to two ladies who were responsible for the maintenance, upkeep and house-keeping of the House in Kensington, and he asked which, in their opinion, was the most difficult aspect of this Motto.
One replied, "Oh, Saying good words is hard...."
The other interjected with, "Oh No. Definitely 'Think Good Thoughts'. Because that's where the rest starts from...."
Pretty neat conclusion, in my opinion.
Think Good Thoughts.
Say Good Words.
Do Good Deeds.
Húmata hükhta húvarshta may just be my next tattoo.....
I've been thinking a lot about this recently and as you you say the Fifth Precept and ways of interpreting them.
I've been justifying it to myself by telling myself that it means to train to abstain, so if I have a drink then it's fine as I'm only training to abstain and haven't actually vowed not to do it. My new view on it is that it is a hard and fast rule that you undertake while in training and that by taking the vows I am in training. My further view is that the Fifth is actually one of the most important as it can lead me to break one of the others.
The more I practise meditation and study Buddhism.
The more I WANT to follow the five precepts strictly.
For it seems the only logical behaviroul choice.
@FairyFeller said:
But what about killing the undead surely that's more about getting them before they get us?
Zombies and vampires don't fit the definition of "living creatures", and hence are not covered by the first precept. So feel free to torch 'em!
But wait...would a vampire be sentient?? Oh my...
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@federica said:
I remember many years ago, watching a documentary on the little-known and fairly anonymous Tradition of Zoroastrianism. Absolutely fascinating...
...
Pretty neat conclusion, in my opinion.
Think Good Thoughts.
Say Good Words.
Do Good Deeds.
Húmata hükhta húvarshta may just be my next tattoo.....
I met a Zoroastrian a while back when I was in a little pizza parlor, and the older gentleman behind the counter had one of these pendants and it was massive (maybe 4 inches wide) and impressive, so I asked him what it was, and he told me about it (and I had him spell it on the back of an order slip so I could google it. He was very nice. (no free pizza, though)
I think what I love about Buddhism is it's a coat you can cut to fit you perfectly. Taking what makes perfect sense to you, instead of as a matter of faith. So this is my coat. As I get older I may get a tighter fitting coat.
1 - Do not harm another sentient being.
Sentient. I take that as anything with a face. I clearly break that by continuing to eat meat. I need to do much better in that respect and give up meat. My part in the suffering of animals in the meat trade is something that troubles my mind. Don't consider insects in the club. So if I'm invaded by ants and there's no other options I might get the bug spray out. Cockroaches I catch and let out. That's easy. Killing a cockroach isn't going to solve the cockroach problem. I'd be killing it out of laziness.
But love animals and humans equally. Animal or human cruelty is a horrible thing. Compassion towards animals or other humans is divine. Regardless of age or species. Be blind in that respect.
But motivation is important. If you're a crazy axe murderer killing people and I have a gun, I see that as saving life. Standing by and doing nothing is causing harm by inaction.
2 - Do not steal
Do not take a thing that is not freely given. Stealing is taking a thing owned by someone else and depriving them of that property without their permission. For it to be stealing you have the motivation to steal in your mind. So if I have a bowl and you take it and only care about being found out, that's stealing. If I borrow your bowl with the intention to return it that's not so bad, but still a bad idea. If I copy your bowl, take photos of it and get a bowl just like it... That's not even close to stealing.
Not respecting other's property is a kind of stealing. If you lend me you bowl and I return it all busted up and chipped. That's bad.
3 - Do not engage in sexual misconduct.
Think I know what that is. Incest, rape, paedophilia, engaging in unsafe sex and getting people pregnant or giving them horrible diseases. Basically causing harm using sex. Don't do it.
Cheating on a wife or girlfriend is lying and precept 4.
4 - Watch what you say
Don't lie. Proper lies, that's about motivation. If your wife asks you "Does my bum look big in this" then that's OK. Don't speak ill of people. Don't gossip. Don't be two faced or insincere. Don't be boastful. Don't criticise people too much. Speak from a place of compassion and kindness. Speak to resolve disagreements in a peaceful manner. Don't speak in a way that divides or labels people or assumes things about them. Don't dwell on the past, it's never the way you remember it. Be mindful of false modesty too. This is the most difficult one to master and needs much mindfulness.
5 - Don't be a drunken nobhead.
I live in Thailand, we're all Buddhist, the Singha brewery ain't going out of business any time soon selling to the Buddhist people of Thailand. This is the way I see it:
Don't drink if it causes you to break the first four precepts. If you drink and you're cruel, mean, thoughtless, get into fights, then don't drink at all. What do they say, a sober man's thoughts is a drunk man's talk? If you have a head full of mean stuff stay off the juice. Completely. I don't understand the concept that you're "clouding your mind" for 4 hours or so and delaying your enlightenment. Don't get that. If I'm at work and concentrating on that I'm also delaying my enlightenment. The same with watching films, or concentrating on a book, aren't I delaying enlightenment too? Don't get it.
So don't cause harm with drink. Don't drink and drive. If you're a terrible person when you drink, stop. If you're drinking to excess and harming your heath, cut down or stop. Avoid illegal narcotics entirely. Not worth it.
I see the 5 precepts as one. "Don't case harm". Harm with your words or body. To yourself or others.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Bahn said: I live in Thailand, we're all Buddhist, the Singha brewery ain't going out of business any time soon selling to the Buddhist people of Thailand.
The precepts are the one part of Buddhism I really can't get into. After all the mind expanding and psycho-spiritual insights, not to mention a philosophy based on compassion, I'm supposed to follow a bunch of rules and everything will be fine? Seems cheap. (I may be wrong).
@0student0 said: The precepts are the one part of Buddhism I really can't get into. After all the mind expanding and psycho-spiritual insights, not to mention a philosophy based on compassion, I'm supposed to follow a bunch of rules and everything will be fine? Seems cheap. (I may be wrong).
The precepts are like training wheels on a bike. After a while such behaviour becomes more natural so you can take them off.
@Jeffrey said:
Did the Buddha state what the purpose of the five precepts is?
I feel that there is two kinds of purpose, a projected purpose and one that is unique. The "projected" purpose seems as though it is subject to fading obviously, while the other aligns with the teachings and practice. I think the purpose of the five precept is to help keep the lay disciple on the path, but I will keep an ear out for its true meaning.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@0student0 said:
The precepts are the one part of Buddhism I really can't get into. After all the mind expanding and psycho-spiritual insights, not to mention a philosophy based on compassion, I'm supposed to follow a bunch of rules and everything will be fine? Seems cheap. (I may be wrong).
Oh but you most certainly are.
Everybody needs guidelines. Everybody needs guidelines. We live in a society, a structured hierarchy that is not controlling, but maintains a balance, a defined governance, a general compliance of what it is, to live within a social bonded structure.
Everything you do, in daily life, is about 'following rules'.
You refrain from road rage, mind your temper, and try each day to interact in a non-violent and unaggressive way, with those members of society around you (Refrain from harming sentient beings).
You pay your bills, and purchase your groceries, because you benefit from the luxury of water, heat and light and sustenance (take nothing that is not freely given).
You don't pinch the ass, wolf-whistle at ladies, make crass sexual innuendos and tell dirty sexist jokes, or grope a woman covertly, because you respect the sensitive boundaries and the sensibilities of ladies it may harm (Refrain from inappropriate sexual/sensual behaviour)
You don't swear in public, slander, lie about others, tell people nasty tales or bad-mouth your neighbours in ways that will effect alienation and hostility for others (Refrain from inappropriate verbal behaviour)
You don't drink three six-packs a night, take heroin, sell crack, ice or uppers to anyone, in the hope of spreading the addiction and making money out of others, thus depriving them of the opportunity of a normal life (Do not indulge in mind-altering substances which lead to unskilful thoughts words and deeds).
All of these actions, contravened, are actually punishable by Law.
So (sorry...) What is it about the 5 precepts you can't get your head round, again....?
But I don't need to keep those rules in my head. If I broke any of them, I'd see what it does and I wouldn't do it again. I think learning by experience makes much more sense than keeping a list in my head.
But I don't need to keep those rules in my head. If I broke any of them, I'd see what it does and I wouldn't do it again. I think learning by experience makes much more sense than keeping a list in my head.
Que?
Who are you intending to kill? What will you steal? Who will you be raping? etc
What are you talking about?
Do you mean the precepts are self evident? What am I not understanding? The precepts are learning by others experience. Have you experienced good from intoxication and speaking ill of others? Are you still working towards that?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
But I don't need to keep those rules in my head. If I broke any of them, I'd see what it does and I wouldn't do it again. I think learning by experience makes much more sense than keeping a list in my head.
You're not getting what I mean.
You already ABIDE by the 5 precepts.
The thing about Buddhism is that everything about it, is common sense, and can be taught, learnt and implemented - without it even necessarily being called 'Buddhism'. You already follow 'a bunch of rules' because they're already inside your head.
The 5 precepts are there as a guide, a tool, a 'do not step on the flowers' type of reminder.... they're not hard-and-fast rules and reg's you have to handcuff yourself to... they're sensible precautions which, implemented, help your kamma be more skilful than otherwise....
I see a nuanced distinction between social etiquette and Buddhist precepts. Even if the content might be similar, I think the difference is in the beneficiary.
Society has laws and customs because they are needed to keep society running smoothly. We don't commit securities fraud or eliminate on the sidewalk because it is to society's benefit to compel certain behaviors. We set the individual subservient to the group. Similarly, religions have laws and customs because they benefit God.
Buddhism, unlike a state or a religion, compels nothing. We don't have to follow any rules to stay in the congregation or out of jail. For those who do choose to follow them, the benefit is to the individual. We can reduce our suffering, travel the path to enlightenment, close our eyes and visit our internal nirvana. Our bliss, and our angst, is within.
Come on, you know my point. I don't need to remind myself of not raping, killing or stealing because I am aware of the suffering that it causes me and others. I wouldn't do them even if they weren't precepts.
Yes, I think the precepts are self evident.
Ok, from that point of view it makes sense. Still, calling them rules bothers me somehow. It seems to imply that you need to restrain yourself from doing what you want to.
Ok, from that point of view it makes sense. Still, calling them rules bothers me somehow. It seems to imply that you need to restrain yourself from doing what you want to.
So don't call them 'rules' then.....What you have to remember is that these 'rules' as YOU call them, were originally created to be implemented by monks.
As laypeople, as those who have not vowed renunciation, we can choose to adhere to the first five and occasionally a further three, as an indication or measure of our conviction and 'devotion' to the Path.
Let's get specific here... You surely DON'T 'want' to harm another being, you don't want to steal... you'd probably prefer to not be up to your neck in it for saying something you really shouldn't have said.... so which of these precepts is actually 'bothering' you?
Which of those remaining, is restraining you from doing what you want to do?
And what do you want to do, that may in some quarters be considered unskliful?
I mean, we've got the third (sensual pleasures) and the Fifth (mind-altering substances).
So you wanna screw around and live a hedonistic lifestyle? Or do you want to get blind drunk five times a night and hit a few lines....?
@0student0 said:
The precepts are the one part of Buddhism I really can't get into. After all the mind expanding and psycho-spiritual insights, not to mention a philosophy based on compassion, I'm supposed to follow a bunch of rules and everything will be fine? Seems cheap. (I may be wrong).>
The precepts are common sense guidlines to empower good karma. Many more are available. Some that the monks follow as disciplines are a little bizarre ... As lay people we have no rules except those we try to find value for ourselves ... in time we tend to give up more and more of the unskilful socially hyped behavour of the 'rules' to a good time ...
Steve_B
Thanks, that clears it up.
Good news.
@federica said:
So you wanna screw around and live a hedonistic lifestyle? Or do you want to get blind drunk five times a night and hit a few lines....?
Oh ... we gets choice? My sort of 'rules' ... Will there be ice cream? [think @SpinyNorman might be joining us]
Buddhism is a discipline. No strain (just a little) no gain.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
This came up on my FB feed today. Seems appropriate....
It's a pat truism extended ad absurdio. Facebook fluff. If that empathy were fully intact and fully congruent in all of us, we'd live the precepts, subconsciously follow the cultural norms, and laws would be unnecessary. Consider that the implementers of Sharia law consider themselves and their laws to be morally superior, a view not at all shared in the west.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Well, yes. I take your point. But the core message is that really, to live a wholesome life, you don't necessarily need religion to underpin your actions... That's really what I was trying to say, with direct connection to @0student0's input and comments....
I am no fan of pap truisms any more than you are. (and yes, the miss-spelling IS intentional... I do mean 'pap' as in easy-to-swallow, 'no need to chew on this' micro-bites... )
Oh yes, I completely agree. Religion is unnecessary. Not always completely useless in small doses for individual consumption. But wholesome lives can certainly be lived without it. (And historically countless lives could have been saved by its absence. )
Comments
Did the Buddha state what the purpose of the five precepts is?
Honest differences in interpretation is an issue with the 5 Precepts.
@Jeffrey
Thus I have heard "Don't believe what the Buddha says...try it and see for yourself !"
You might find what you are looking for in Here
Otherwise.....
Cut & Pasted from an earlier post...
When hearing or reading Dharma text, if over time I experience a 'beneficial' change when applying it in daily life, then it holds some truth....(Be it conventional truth)
Bearing in mind Nietzsche's observation "Everything evolves-will come to mean nothing is true"
@Shoshin, yes but I want to know what the Buddha says. I did not find it in your link to wikipedia - Pali Canon very helpful.
Part of the dharma is hearing the teachings in the first place. If I don't know the teachings then there is nothing to test for myself.
'after a while the precepts reveal themselves' - << Where do you get the idea that they 'reveal themselves'? I didn't receive the secret decoder ring and I have practiced Buddhism 15 years.. just kidding
I think they are part and parcel of the EightFold Path, @Jeffrey ie' Right Thought-Speech-Action-etc etc.... that is, the ethical conduct set out by the Buddha, in order to enhance ones practice...And when following the 8FP the truth does reveal itself
....in time....
@vinlyn I like your precepts, although number 3 is not to abstain from "sexual misconduct" but "exploiting the passions"
For some reason people think that's only sexual misconduct.
Exploiting the passions could also be binge eating, going after girls when bored, playing video games, watching tv etc...
Anything like those when used to fill that hole in our lives.
That's it's truest translation anyway. Just an FYI.
@Shoshin nevermind. I was interested in a reference to where Buddha talks about the precept. Thanks though. It makes sense that 5 precepts are part of the ethics part of the 8fp. But again I was interested in a reference where Buddha himself talks about the five precepts.
No problem @Jeffrey , perhaps this is what you're looking for "Dhammika Sutta"
Here's one: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.039.than.html
The precepts are also closely related to developing Right Intention, which is "Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness."
I just took the wording from a source on the internet. Nothing I made up.
Just out of curiosity, where did you come up with that as being the truest translation?
Indeed. I was about to ask for a reference/link/source, please, @Earthninja
Not doubting. Sounds eminently logical, but it would be nice to know the origin....
This is a fairly good discussion: http://community.dhammaloka.org.au/showthread.php/1325-The-exact-meaning-of-the-Fifth-Precept
People do tend to rationalise their behaviours when they are attached to them.
They haven't wandered anywhere near the third one, by any chance, have they (as it was a PoD a little earlier...)?
(PoD: Point of Discussion)
Some people claim all spokes of the N8P are interchangeable, others uphold Morality lies at the outset of the Path because unskillful behaviour is more conducive to strengthen the defilements of greed, hatred and delusion.
The energy that does not get squandered in the passion battlefield, gets channelled into wisdom and equanimity.
So the road to begins with skillful, moderate behaviour.
I have never killed any form of life. I have never stolen anything.
The other precepts are grey areas to me by which the measuring stick I use is: will my decision to indulge in this behaviour increase my suffering or another sentient being's?
Right Speech is always a work in progress with me.
Intoxicants? I enjoy drinking alcohol with a good meal or in good company without getting drunk, nor doing anything improper with the excuse of a clouded mind.
Have never done drugs, though.
And I'm a lost, darned green tea drinker.
Sexual misconduct? I have never forced anyone into doing anything against their will.
The precepts are guidelines, and I agree that we more we stick by them, the less swayed we'll be by the vagaries of fortune.
But I don't use them to berate myself when I fail to abide by them.
@vinlyn @federica
I heard it was otherwise by Alan Watts who studies the origins in Pali and Sanskrit. "The real eightfold path - Alan Watts" YouTube lol.
I then looked it up 3.Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
Kamesu - fulfilling the desires
Micchacara - wrong behaviour
Veramani - abstinence
Sikkhapadam - precept, rule, instruction,
Samadiyami - takes upon or with oneself
*in Sanskrit kamesumacchara is Kamadhikara - influence of passion or desires
From "A new course in reading Pali - entering the word of the Buddha"
Ever since the bible I don't trust these loose translations, people always put their own interpretations in. Who knows how many of the discourses have been interpreted wrongly and we quote them as the words of Buddha.
Ahh well. Pali/Sanskrit school here we come!
It's so hard to wrap our minds around the difference between rules and precepts, isn't it? We aren't hardwired for rules of conduct that don't come with a threat of punishment if not followed. It takes a lot of maturity to look at a rule and see it's for your benefit to follow it.
When told there is some rule that restricts our behavior, our minds say, "Don't do that...or what? Who will get angry? So what's going to happen if I do that?" A rule that is not enforced is ignored. The 10 commandments are obeyed (such that they are) because God will get angry with you if you don't. Period. Not because stealing hurts people.
But any list of rules can only go so far and actually becomes counter-productive if you start getting obsessive about it. The rules become more important than the people they're designed to help. After all, people are good at justifying their actions. You'd think "Thou shalt not kill" would be a pretty clear rule to follow, but Christians manage to find wiggle room around it throughout history.
So you have a Precept that says "Avoid intoxicants". Or what? Who's going to get angry? Nobody. Is it a "or you'll be sorry!" kind of warning, like don't dive into the shallow end of a pool? Not necessarily. I have a six pack of light beer in the fridge right now and eventually I'll feel like having a cold one while I sit on the porch in the hot summer. Will it hurt me? No. Do I feel guilty? No.
But I know what the Precept is telling me. It's saying alcohol has played a role in causing a whole buttload of human misery. It's a reminder and a warning. But not drinking doesn't make me a Buddhist. If I follow every Precept religiously that does not make me a Buddhist. It does, however, make me a good person to be around.
And even if they aren't... example: I go with the flow...(If you get my drift)
Double insightful.
Does it matter?
-Speaking for myself, yes...
@vinlyn said 'And (sorry @nakazcid) some see them only as a way to train one's mind. For what? If I just want to "train my mind" I can play chess. Personally, I see the Precepts as training one to not do what the Precept says to not do.'
~~~
I agree with your view on this topic, Vinnie (I like that nickname - hope you do). Yep, the ol' reverse psychology - which my mother finally gave up In exasperation and said one day when I was older that she could never use reverse psychology on me because I knew what I wanted/didn't want, heh. (That would have to be checkers for me.
)
I think some precepts apply more to some than others. Many here, for example, could drink alcohol, no problems, and no-one would be harmed.
Me? Nay! When I start drinking, all bets are off.
So that precept is a biggie for me.
However, Alan Watts is one of my favourite alcoholics; it's such a shame he couldn't stick with that one.
There are tremendously great benefits in keeping precepts. They pretty much go hand in hand with meditation practice and every other practice as well. Personally I think people who are able to keep them are blessed in a way because not everyone has that opportunity. It really depends on one's lifestyle and profession whether or not precepts can be kept sometimes. Where there's a will there's a way I guess. How strict should we follow the precepts you say? As faith and confidence builds in one's practice, perhaps by then it does not really matter. It could just be a matter of finding peace and living peacefully. Which could be something more naturally done than having to add anything extra.
I remember many years ago, watching a documentary on the little-known and fairly anonymous Tradition of Zoroastrianism. Absolutely fascinating...
Their Motto Is 'Think Good Thoughts, Say Good Words, Do Good Deeds' and frankly, I was quite knocked sideways by its frank, deep and fundamentl simplicity and Truth.
The interviewer was speaking to two ladies who were responsible for the maintenance, upkeep and house-keeping of the House in Kensington, and he asked which, in their opinion, was the most difficult aspect of this Motto.
One replied, "Oh, Saying good words is hard...."
The other interjected with, "Oh No. Definitely 'Think Good Thoughts'. Because that's where the rest starts from...."
Pretty neat conclusion, in my opinion.
Think Good Thoughts.
Say Good Words.
Do Good Deeds.
Húmata hükhta húvarshta may just be my next tattoo.....
But what about killing the undead
surely that's more about getting them before they get us?
I've been thinking a lot about this recently and as you you say the Fifth Precept and ways of interpreting them.
I've been justifying it to myself by telling myself that it means to train to abstain, so if I have a drink then it's fine as I'm only training to abstain and haven't actually vowed not to do it. My new view on it is that it is a hard and fast rule that you undertake while in training and that by taking the vows I am in training. My further view is that the Fifth is actually one of the most important as it can lead me to break one of the others.
The more I practise meditation and study Buddhism.
The more I WANT to follow the five precepts strictly.
For it seems the only logical behaviroul choice.
Zombies and vampires don't fit the definition of "living creatures", and hence are not covered by the first precept. So feel free to torch 'em!
But wait...would a vampire be sentient?? Oh my...
...
I met a Zoroastrian a while back when I was in a little pizza parlor, and the older gentleman behind the counter had one of these pendants and it was massive (maybe 4 inches wide) and impressive, so I asked him what it was, and he told me about it (and I had him spell it on the back of an order slip so I could google it. He was very nice. (no free pizza, though)
I think what I love about Buddhism is it's a coat you can cut to fit you perfectly. Taking what makes perfect sense to you, instead of as a matter of faith. So this is my coat. As I get older I may get a tighter fitting coat.
1 - Do not harm another sentient being.
Sentient. I take that as anything with a face. I clearly break that by continuing to eat meat. I need to do much better in that respect and give up meat. My part in the suffering of animals in the meat trade is something that troubles my mind. Don't consider insects in the club. So if I'm invaded by ants and there's no other options I might get the bug spray out. Cockroaches I catch and let out. That's easy. Killing a cockroach isn't going to solve the cockroach problem. I'd be killing it out of laziness.
But love animals and humans equally. Animal or human cruelty is a horrible thing. Compassion towards animals or other humans is divine. Regardless of age or species. Be blind in that respect.
But motivation is important. If you're a crazy axe murderer killing people and I have a gun, I see that as saving life. Standing by and doing nothing is causing harm by inaction.
2 - Do not steal
Do not take a thing that is not freely given. Stealing is taking a thing owned by someone else and depriving them of that property without their permission. For it to be stealing you have the motivation to steal in your mind. So if I have a bowl and you take it and only care about being found out, that's stealing. If I borrow your bowl with the intention to return it that's not so bad, but still a bad idea. If I copy your bowl, take photos of it and get a bowl just like it... That's not even close to stealing.
Not respecting other's property is a kind of stealing. If you lend me you bowl and I return it all busted up and chipped. That's bad.
3 - Do not engage in sexual misconduct.
Think I know what that is. Incest, rape, paedophilia, engaging in unsafe sex and getting people pregnant or giving them horrible diseases. Basically causing harm using sex. Don't do it.
Cheating on a wife or girlfriend is lying and precept 4.
4 - Watch what you say
Don't lie. Proper lies, that's about motivation. If your wife asks you "Does my bum look big in this" then that's OK. Don't speak ill of people. Don't gossip. Don't be two faced or insincere. Don't be boastful. Don't criticise people too much. Speak from a place of compassion and kindness. Speak to resolve disagreements in a peaceful manner. Don't speak in a way that divides or labels people or assumes things about them. Don't dwell on the past, it's never the way you remember it. Be mindful of false modesty too. This is the most difficult one to master and needs much mindfulness.
5 - Don't be a drunken nobhead.
I live in Thailand, we're all Buddhist, the Singha brewery ain't going out of business any time soon selling to the Buddhist people of Thailand. This is the way I see it:
Don't drink if it causes you to break the first four precepts. If you drink and you're cruel, mean, thoughtless, get into fights, then don't drink at all. What do they say, a sober man's thoughts is a drunk man's talk? If you have a head full of mean stuff stay off the juice. Completely. I don't understand the concept that you're "clouding your mind" for 4 hours or so and delaying your enlightenment. Don't get that. If I'm at work and concentrating on that I'm also delaying my enlightenment. The same with watching films, or concentrating on a book, aren't I delaying enlightenment too? Don't get it.
So don't cause harm with drink. Don't drink and drive. If you're a terrible person when you drink, stop. If you're drinking to excess and harming your heath, cut down or stop. Avoid illegal narcotics entirely. Not worth it.
I see the 5 precepts as one. "Don't case harm". Harm with your words or body. To yourself or others.
Your IP location is nowhere near Thailand.
Just saying.....
Yeah I'm on holiday in New Zealand, check my IP in four weeks.
I went from Atheist to Buddhist as a result of living in Thailand. Honestly believe people are better people here(there) as a result of Buddhism.
Thanks, Just wondering... ya know, as a Mod, I have to keep my eye on things....
Have a good holiday.
There are other members in NZ also.... it's a nice place. Very diverse North Island to South, I hear....
The precepts are the one part of Buddhism I really can't get into. After all the mind expanding and psycho-spiritual insights, not to mention a philosophy based on compassion, I'm supposed to follow a bunch of rules and everything will be fine? Seems cheap. (I may be wrong).
The precepts are like training wheels on a bike. After a while such behaviour becomes more natural so you can take them off.
@0student0
The precepts are just guide rails edging the Buddha's path towards suffering's cessation.
On what side of those guide rails you travel simply determines how much suffering is likely to occur around you.
I feel that there is two kinds of purpose, a projected purpose and one that is unique. The "projected" purpose seems as though it is subject to fading obviously, while the other aligns with the teachings and practice. I think the purpose of the five precept is to help keep the lay disciple on the path, but I will keep an ear out for its true meaning.
Oh but you most certainly are.
Everybody needs guidelines. Everybody needs guidelines. We live in a society, a structured hierarchy that is not controlling, but maintains a balance, a defined governance, a general compliance of what it is, to live within a social bonded structure.
Everything you do, in daily life, is about 'following rules'.
You refrain from road rage, mind your temper, and try each day to interact in a non-violent and unaggressive way, with those members of society around you (Refrain from harming sentient beings).
You pay your bills, and purchase your groceries, because you benefit from the luxury of water, heat and light and sustenance (take nothing that is not freely given).
You don't pinch the ass, wolf-whistle at ladies, make crass sexual innuendos and tell dirty sexist jokes, or grope a woman covertly, because you respect the sensitive boundaries and the sensibilities of ladies it may harm (Refrain from inappropriate sexual/sensual behaviour)
You don't swear in public, slander, lie about others, tell people nasty tales or bad-mouth your neighbours in ways that will effect alienation and hostility for others (Refrain from inappropriate verbal behaviour)
You don't drink three six-packs a night, take heroin, sell crack, ice or uppers to anyone, in the hope of spreading the addiction and making money out of others, thus depriving them of the opportunity of a normal life (Do not indulge in mind-altering substances which lead to unskilful thoughts words and deeds).
All of these actions, contravened, are actually punishable by Law.
So (sorry...) What is it about the 5 precepts you can't get your head round, again....?
@SpinyNorman , @how and @federica
But I don't need to keep those rules in my head. If I broke any of them, I'd see what it does and I wouldn't do it again. I think learning by experience makes much more sense than keeping a list in my head.
Que?
Who are you intending to kill? What will you steal? Who will you be raping? etc
What are you talking about?
Do you mean the precepts are self evident? What am I not understanding? The precepts are learning by others experience. Have you experienced good from intoxication and speaking ill of others? Are you still working towards that?
You're not getting what I mean.
You already ABIDE by the 5 precepts.
The thing about Buddhism is that everything about it, is common sense, and can be taught, learnt and implemented - without it even necessarily being called 'Buddhism'. You already follow 'a bunch of rules' because they're already inside your head.
The 5 precepts are there as a guide, a tool, a 'do not step on the flowers' type of reminder.... they're not hard-and-fast rules and reg's you have to handcuff yourself to... they're sensible precautions which, implemented, help your kamma be more skilful than otherwise....
I see a nuanced distinction between social etiquette and Buddhist precepts. Even if the content might be similar, I think the difference is in the beneficiary.
Society has laws and customs because they are needed to keep society running smoothly. We don't commit securities fraud or eliminate on the sidewalk because it is to society's benefit to compel certain behaviors. We set the individual subservient to the group. Similarly, religions have laws and customs because they benefit God.
Buddhism, unlike a state or a religion, compels nothing. We don't have to follow any rules to stay in the congregation or out of jail. For those who do choose to follow them, the benefit is to the individual. We can reduce our suffering, travel the path to enlightenment, close our eyes and visit our internal nirvana. Our bliss, and our angst, is within.
@lobster
Come on, you know my point. I don't need to remind myself of not raping, killing or stealing because I am aware of the suffering that it causes me and others. I wouldn't do them even if they weren't precepts.
Yes, I think the precepts are self evident.
@federica
Ok, from that point of view it makes sense. Still, calling them rules bothers me somehow. It seems to imply that you need to restrain yourself from doing what you want to.
@Steve_B
Thanks, that clears it up.
So don't call them 'rules' then.....What you have to remember is that these 'rules' as YOU call them, were originally created to be implemented by monks.
As laypeople, as those who have not vowed renunciation, we can choose to adhere to the first five and occasionally a further three, as an indication or measure of our conviction and 'devotion' to the Path.
Let's get specific here... You surely DON'T 'want' to harm another being, you don't want to steal... you'd probably prefer to not be up to your neck in it for saying something you really shouldn't have said.... so which of these precepts is actually 'bothering' you?
Which of those remaining, is restraining you from doing what you want to do?
And what do you want to do, that may in some quarters be considered unskliful?
I mean, we've got the third (sensual pleasures) and the Fifth (mind-altering substances).
So you wanna screw around and live a hedonistic lifestyle? Or do you want to get blind drunk five times a night and hit a few lines....?
The precepts are common sense guidlines to empower good karma. Many more are available. Some that the monks follow as disciplines are a little bizarre ... As lay people we have no rules except those we try to find value for ourselves ... in time we tend to give up more and more of the unskilful socially hyped behavour of the 'rules' to a good time ...
Good news.
Oh ... we gets choice?
My sort of 'rules' ... Will there be ice cream? [think @SpinyNorman might be joining us]
Buddhism is a discipline. No strain (just a little) no gain.
This came up on my FB feed today. Seems appropriate....
It's a pat truism extended ad absurdio. Facebook fluff. If that empathy were fully intact and fully congruent in all of us, we'd live the precepts, subconsciously follow the cultural norms, and laws would be unnecessary. Consider that the implementers of Sharia law consider themselves and their laws to be morally superior, a view not at all shared in the west.
Well, yes. I take your point. But the core message is that really, to live a wholesome life, you don't necessarily need religion to underpin your actions... That's really what I was trying to say, with direct connection to @0student0's input and comments....
)
I am no fan of pap truisms any more than you are. (and yes, the miss-spelling IS intentional... I do mean 'pap' as in easy-to-swallow, 'no need to chew on this' micro-bites...
Oh yes, I completely agree. Religion is unnecessary. Not always completely useless in small doses for individual consumption. But wholesome lives can certainly be lived without it. (And historically countless lives could have been saved by its absence. )