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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Daozen said:
Sure, everything is unique, ineffable. So .. what's so unique about (y)our uniqueness?
I don't think I get the point to your question.
Care to elaborate?
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2015
@Daozen said:
ourself Regarding (y)ourself, Buddha taught a Middle Way between nihilism and eternalism.
Yeah... And?
It would probably move things along if you got to point.
Each time Buddha's points are pointed your way, you seem to get quite prickly and start pointing at others. "They don't get me." "I am right." "I am I am I am." Maybe give your self a break. A hol-I-day. It's much more relaxing when you let self go a little and don't take your self seriously. Seriously!
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2015
@Daozen said:
Each time Buddha's points are pointed your way, you seem to get quite prickly and start pointing at others. "They don't get me." "I am right." "I am I am I am." Maybe give your self a break. A hol-I-day. It's much more relaxing when you let self go a little and don't take your self seriously. Seriously!
I see. And how does that make you feel?
You may have a bit of a point but actually, I don't think I ever claimed to be "right".
A few others have recently though.
Can you please cite an actual quote and not lie about what I've said? That would be proper etiquette I believe.
I did have a few hours where I was getting pretty "uppity", I'll admit, lol. We all have good and bad days, no?
Are you sure you're not just being a troll in this instance?
It's ok if you are, we all do it from time to time.
Hi @ourself It's true we all have those days, my self most definitely included. Consider my 2 posts, in order, as 1. A statement of the teaching I thought you might find helpful - but which you said you're well aware of (great) and 2. A provocation to look more deeply at what you have been calling your uniqueness.
For your further amusement and enlightenment:
Alright, this old self is off to breakfast!
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
It's all good but it's just strange because my prior posts on this thread already explain my views as how the middle way relates.
Or so I thought.
I'm still waiting for you to provide a direct quote where I claimed exclusivity of truth and whined about nobody getting me, lol.
If you take offense to my pointing out who is not an authority then by all means say so but your claims about my claims of truth is just your ego misrepresenting me, sorry.
It would be better to use the quote function instead of just making stuff up, lol.
you guys
Let's all get one thing straight on this forum, until we are fully awakened. Every intentional movement in any direction comes from ego. Be it spirituality or hostility.
So we are all in the same boat! Yay!
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Very true but it's still best to keep it honest.
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Earthninja said: you guys
Let's all get one thing straight on this forum, until we are fully awakened. Every intentional movement in any direction comes from ego. Be it spirituality or hostility.
So we are all in the same boat! Yay!
That may be the case, but while we are all in the same boat, it helps if we all row together, and not have a pitched battle regarding whose oar is bigger, or which way this boat's going to go.
Rather than pitch and bitch, let's just leave personal issues aside, not bait, goad or bicker, and just address the topic, ok?
@ourself said:
my prior posts on this thread already explain my views as how the middle way relates.
Your posts emphasise your view that you are an individually unique part of a non-separate process. Thus you gave the strong impression of attachment to a self view. That is leaning very much to one side of the way, rather than the Middle. If you truly had insight on non-separation, you would see the truth of anatta.
I'm still waiting for you to provide a direct quote where I claimed exclusivity of truth and whined about nobody getting me, lol.
First you responded to pegembara's comment regarding anatta (a basic Buddhist concept) by saying "this never makes sense to me", and from there on ... Earthninja's rather perceptive comment was "meaningless", 0student0 was "getting you wrong", lobster was failing to understand you, suffering from "delusion" and "no authority". In other words, according to you, you are right, and they are wrong ... even though they are communicating basic Buddhist teachings and you are contradicting them.
PS Your misunderstanding is quite simple: you are thinking about being an individual on a mundane level, whereas anatta is a supramundane truth.
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
First of all, annata is the lack of an abiding self, not the lack of being. A unique aspect of the process is not to be permanent.
Nice try though.
I'm still waiting for you to quote a post where I claim exclusivity of truth... Or are you just full of crap when you get upset?
Second of all it is quite fine if somebody's assertion doesn't make sense to me or anyone else.
I am allowed to challenge assertions made by anyone.
It doesn't matter if you like it or not.
@Daozen said:
PS Your misunderstanding is quite simple: you are thinking about being an individual on a mundane level, whereas anatta is a supramundane truth.
Your opinion doesn't change the fact that you wouldn't be able to post anything without expressing your individuality.
There is nothing supramundane about anatta. It just is.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@ourself said:First of all, annata is the lack of an abiding self, not the lack of being. A unique aspect of the process is not to be permanent.
Yes, the uniqueness isn't fixed or permanent.
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I think that attachment to individuality or self-view can be an obstacle.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2015
@SpinyNorman said:
I think that attachment to individuality or self-view can be an obstacle.
I can attest to that.
That's why I think it's best to put our own understanding to at least as much scrutiny as the understanding of others.
After all, isn't that kinda why we are on forum to begin with?
Anatta is seeing the emptiness in all things, especially the holder of things.
If we call this holder unique, we are separating it from all other phenomena.
Everything arises from consciousness, everything is pops into and out of existence.
Although things appear to exist out there, and are unique. I think we are viewing the world the wrong way.
If we don't see everything as emptiness, and emptiness is everything. We are viewing incorrectly right?
That's what we need to address.
@Earthninja said: Anatta is seeing the emptiness in all things, especially the holder of things. If we call this holder unique, we are separating it from all other phenomena.
Though even without self-view our experiences are unique.
3
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2015
@Earthninja said:
Anatta is seeing the emptiness in all things, especially the holder of things.
If we call this holder unique, we are separating it from all other phenomena.
Everything arises from consciousness, everything is pops into and out of existence.
Although things appear to exist out there, and are unique. I think we are viewing the world the wrong way.
If we don't see everything as emptiness, and emptiness is everything. We are viewing incorrectly right?
That's what we need to address.
We still need to live though.
I don't think seeing something as unique denies it's lack of permanence. Emptiness is form, not non-existence. Form is always changing and no single form lasts forever.
If form was non-existence or emptiness was non-existence, Buddha would have just said "Form is non-existence" or "emptiness is non-existence" and then continue on to rot.
Problem solved.
This part of your argument I don't see at all but that's ok, that can be put aside.
I'm not saying you are wrong but if we were to stay in this side of truth, how would we function without being able to tell a snake apart from an apple?
For any that have experienced anatta (no matter how it can be described) just picture if you had never come back.
Now imagine Buddha wasting away under that tree in that state until he was found by the woman who had enough compassion to feed him rice. She saved his life and if it wasn't for her act of compassion he would not have gone on to teach.
He now knew the answer was not to negate himself nor was it to indulge.
I'm not going to bother going to the point of saying anyone is wrong but for myself, the middle way is to live both truths as one while negating nor clinging to either the conventional or the absolute.
@ourself i get what you are saying, that's what our minds think emptiness will be like right?
We still have a personality, and memories. They are just not personal anymore.
Intimate but not personal. Therefore you won't eat your leg.
I think there may be a sense of self still there but it's not what we are experiencing now. But I'm just guessing now based on what I've been told. I better find out first haha
Though even without self-view our experiences are unique.
Yeah I guess, but if everything is unique kind of stops uniqueness.
Hey I had a unique experience!
Yeah so?
Everything is a unique experience, what's unique about yours?
No two flowers are the same, are there unique flowers still?
I'm just talking semantics now. Better keep it honest and simple right haha.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Hey man, I'm really sorry about being a jerk the other day. I get carried away sometimes.
I see what you're saying but there is nothing special about being unique. It does however help to create a bigger Big picture as we gain more perspectives.
Everybody is good at something we can all benefit from and 2 heads are better than 1 type deal.
It has nothing to do with trying to be special, lmao!
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited August 2015
I could be wrong but I think it would help us all to remember that anatta is not strictly a Buddhist experience but a Buddhist description of experience.
People of many walks of life tap into this truth including Atheists.
For me, the Buddhism comes in when trying to live in accordance with the facts (that everything changes, no-thing lasts forever and we suffer thinking we are serarate) more than just realizing them.
Hey man, I'm really sorry about being a jerk the other day. I get carried away sometimes.
I see what you're saying but there is nothing special about being unique. It does however help to create a bigger Big picture as we gain more perspectives.
Everybody is good at something we can all benefit from and 2 heads are better than 1 type deal.
It has nothing to do with trying to be special, lmao!
Now I understand Daozen's quip, thank you!
It's about being useful.
Agreed, we all have different backgrounds and that's what is brilliant about conversing with all you guys. We are not locked in to views that are simply in our local environment. We can get perspectives from all over the world.
Don't be sorry either, you have me a chance to share and reflect. if resistance came up on my part, then that's great. You showed me something I need to address.
All the best with you and your young family!
2
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
I've also come to see I have to address my defensiveness. Not of my views because my view changes all the time but my logic.
It seems that being too attached to my logic could get in the way of appreciating another's view as much as being too attached to my views.
These are the kinds of things that puts splits in the Sangha if we aren't mindful.
@ourself said:
I could be wrong but I think it would help us all to remember that anatta is not strictly a Buddhist experience but a Buddhist description of experience.
That's true and a good insight.
People of many walks of life tap into this truth including Atheists.
Also very true. In fact Buddhism can become a kind of Spiritual Materialism wherein everyday clinging is replaced by a kind of spiritual clinging and pride. The classic example is the person addicted to going on long meditation retreats who looks down on everyday life as inferior and simply can't wait to go on the next retreat to get another hit. A particularly perceptive and open person without the 'baggage' of a philosophy may be able to drop their ego more easily than someone earnestly striving to be 'spiritual'.
@Mingle said:
We believe we can't ever be happy if we don't get this carrot and getting this carrot is the only thing worth striving for as all else is meaningless without it.
We all have different carrots. Some are still beating themselves or others with stuck sticks ...
However there is hope for us donkey dharma practitioners ...
The path needs a bit of carrot and stick mentality but not so much that we only move by threat or promise. We can also move by stilling or being content with our 'inner mule' aka 'monkey mind' ... just not continually at the mercy of its requirements ...
@Mingle said:
We believe we can't ever be happy if we don't get this carrot and getting this carrot is the only thing worth striving for as all else is meaningless without it.
It feels like we want to be the one striving for that carrot, and at the same time not knowing who that is.
In watching my grandma go through the aging process over the years (I am 39 and she is 89, so I have been watching this for a while now) and watching people suffer horribly, as their spouses become ill and suffer and die of cancer, as mothers' sad goodbyes to their children. I have not always experienced directly, but I have witnessed directly moments of searing, horrific suffering in people.
And the one thing I've determined is that those of us outside that suffering, cannot understand. And our lack of being there, of digging into a place we don't go to until we have to prevents us from really understanding suffering. We look at it from a place of attachments to our own lives and those we care about. But as with so many things in life, the worry and fear and apprehension and anxiety when we think about suffering is often far different in our minds. We put ourselves in the places of others and try to imagine from the outside looking in what their suffering is. Except we can't.
Not to lessen their suffering, it just seems that it's far different than we can imagine unless/until we are there. We pull strength and other things from places we cannot normally access until we need to. I see it every time a child is severely ill or injured and how their parents cope, I see it in spouses who do the same. They are suffering, no doubt. But they have no time to sit around and feel sorry for themselves the way we do when we try to put ourselves in their spots.
The suffering we make up in our minds is, I think, worse than actually going through it. Because when you are going through hell, you just do it. We are better off only dealing with our own suffering in the moment rather than contemplating dealing with worse sufferings later. Because we can't know how we will cope.
I'm really not sure. I suppose it depends on the case. My grandma now has a brain bleed. She is all doped up. She responds by squeezing hands, but it is clear she will be passing soon. No matter how I try to put myself into her spot, I can't. Because without being there, I don't know if she is in pain, if she is thinking, if she is hearing me andsuffering at not being able to respond.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
All we can do, is approximate. And consider, for ourselves, what might bring US comfort at OUR time of passing (always assuming, of course, that when we pass, it will be in a comfortable bed, attended by medics, with our families around us.... who knows....?)
For example, if my legs get too warm, I get awful cramp in my feet, calves, and inner thighs.... I've told my daughter that if I'm old, infirm and can't communicate, but seem in pain for no apparent reason, to check my feet/legs. If they're contorted, it's cramp. I need a good rub....
Why would this be significant...?
About a week before my father died, he woke in the night, and could only say "it hurts... it hurts...." It was clear he was distinctly uncomfortable, and was writhing in an effort to gain some comfort....My mother stood by, helpless, not knowing where the pain was, or what to do.... after a few minutes, the pain went, and my father relaxed, but it bothered my mother absolutely crazy, that she had been powerless to help him...
My father was also frequently prone to foot/leg cramp, but this had not occurred to her, and still hasn't.
It's been 5 years since he died, she misses him more than ever. She's a changed person, and dwells in a perpetual state of silent sadness, declaring that 'she just wants to go'... she seems done with life, although she continues her existence and routine, and has a relatively active social life....
He was cremated, and now 'lives' in an urn, within an extremely beautiful outer clay vase, ultra-modern, very eye-catching.... Up in her room, still on 'his side' of the bed....
yet I hold this thought to myself.... he's beyond help or relief, but it plays on my mind, and I dare not tell my mother, because she would beat herself up with remorse that she didn't either guess or realise.... and of course, I could be completely wrong.... but I don't think I am....
So, I guess, selfishly, I advised my daughter of a possible outcome.... if I'm in pain with cramp, I'd like a warm and loving person to just help me get through it. Because it's a miserable, debilitating, painful experience, and going through it alone, in the dark of night, even now, is very unpleasant...
Comments
I don't think I get the point to your question.
Care to elaborate?
Yeah... And?
It would probably move things along if you got to point.
Each time Buddha's points are pointed your way, you seem to get quite prickly and start pointing at others. "They don't get me." "I am right." "I am I am I am." Maybe give your self a break. A hol-I-day. It's much more relaxing when you let self go a little and don't take your self seriously. Seriously!
I see. And how does that make you feel?
You may have a bit of a point but actually, I don't think I ever claimed to be "right".
A few others have recently though.
Can you please cite an actual quote and not lie about what I've said? That would be proper etiquette I believe.
I did have a few hours where I was getting pretty "uppity", I'll admit, lol. We all have good and bad days, no?
Are you sure you're not just being a troll in this instance?
It's ok if you are, we all do it from time to time.
Hi @ourself It's true we all have those days, my self most definitely included. Consider my 2 posts, in order, as 1. A statement of the teaching I thought you might find helpful - but which you said you're well aware of (great) and 2. A provocation to look more deeply at what you have been calling your uniqueness.
For your further amusement and enlightenment:
Alright, this old self is off to breakfast!
Heyya, @Daozen;
It's all good but it's just strange because my prior posts on this thread already explain my views as how the middle way relates.
Or so I thought.
I'm still waiting for you to provide a direct quote where I claimed exclusivity of truth and whined about nobody getting me, lol.
If you take offense to my pointing out who is not an authority then by all means say so but your claims about my claims of truth is just your ego misrepresenting me, sorry.
It would be better to use the quote function instead of just making stuff up, lol.
Enjoy your meal, though.
Let's all get one thing straight on this forum, until we are fully awakened. Every intentional movement in any direction comes from ego. Be it spirituality or hostility.
So we are all in the same boat! Yay!
Very true but it's still best to keep it honest.
That may be the case, but while we are all in the same boat, it helps if we all row together, and not have a pitched battle regarding whose oar is bigger, or which way this boat's going to go.
Rather than pitch and bitch, let's just leave personal issues aside, not bait, goad or bicker, and just address the topic, ok?
Thanks guys.
Your posts emphasise your view that you are an individually unique part of a non-separate process. Thus you gave the strong impression of attachment to a self view. That is leaning very much to one side of the way, rather than the Middle. If you truly had insight on non-separation, you would see the truth of anatta.
First you responded to pegembara's comment regarding anatta (a basic Buddhist concept) by saying "this never makes sense to me", and from there on ... Earthninja's rather perceptive comment was "meaningless", 0student0 was "getting you wrong", lobster was failing to understand you, suffering from "delusion" and "no authority". In other words, according to you, you are right, and they are wrong ... even though they are communicating basic Buddhist teachings and you are contradicting them.
PS Your misunderstanding is quite simple: you are thinking about being an individual on a mundane level, whereas anatta is a supramundane truth.
Lol. You're like a dog with a bone aren't you?
First of all, annata is the lack of an abiding self, not the lack of being. A unique aspect of the process is not to be permanent.
Nice try though.
I'm still waiting for you to quote a post where I claim exclusivity of truth... Or are you just full of crap when you get upset?
Second of all it is quite fine if somebody's assertion doesn't make sense to me or anyone else.
I am allowed to challenge assertions made by anyone.
It doesn't matter if you like it or not.
Your opinion doesn't change the fact that you wouldn't be able to post anything without expressing your individuality.
There is nothing supramundane about anatta. It just is.
I'm a little tired but I did my best.
Yes, the uniqueness isn't fixed or permanent.
Well, that's just it... How could it be?
I'm not getting these assertions many here are making that our individuality must be shunned for a lack of permanence.
I'm sorry, guys... It just doesn't make any sense.
I think that attachment to individuality or self-view can be an obstacle.
I can attest to that.
That's why I think it's best to put our own understanding to at least as much scrutiny as the understanding of others.
After all, isn't that kinda why we are on forum to begin with?
Along with kinship, that is.
Anatta is seeing the emptiness in all things, especially the holder of things.
If we call this holder unique, we are separating it from all other phenomena.
Everything arises from consciousness, everything is pops into and out of existence.
Although things appear to exist out there, and are unique. I think we are viewing the world the wrong way.
If we don't see everything as emptiness, and emptiness is everything. We are viewing incorrectly right?
That's what we need to address.
Though even without self-view our experiences are unique.
We still need to live though.
I don't think seeing something as unique denies it's lack of permanence. Emptiness is form, not non-existence. Form is always changing and no single form lasts forever.
If form was non-existence or emptiness was non-existence, Buddha would have just said "Form is non-existence" or "emptiness is non-existence" and then continue on to rot.
Problem solved.
This part of your argument I don't see at all but that's ok, that can be put aside.
I'm not saying you are wrong but if we were to stay in this side of truth, how would we function without being able to tell a snake apart from an apple?
For any that have experienced anatta (no matter how it can be described) just picture if you had never come back.
Now imagine Buddha wasting away under that tree in that state until he was found by the woman who had enough compassion to feed him rice. She saved his life and if it wasn't for her act of compassion he would not have gone on to teach.
He now knew the answer was not to negate himself nor was it to indulge.
I'm not going to bother going to the point of saying anyone is wrong but for myself, the middle way is to live both truths as one while negating nor clinging to either the conventional or the absolute.
@ourself i get what you are saying, that's what our minds think emptiness will be like right?
We still have a personality, and memories. They are just not personal anymore.
Intimate but not personal. Therefore you won't eat your leg.
I think there may be a sense of self still there but it's not what we are experiencing now. But I'm just guessing now based on what I've been told. I better find out first haha
. > @SpinyNorman said:
Yeah I guess, but if everything is unique kind of stops uniqueness.
Hey I had a unique experience!
Yeah so?
Everything is a unique experience, what's unique about yours?
No two flowers are the same, are there unique flowers still?
I'm just talking semantics now. Better keep it honest and simple right haha.
@Earthninja;
Hey man, I'm really sorry about being a jerk the other day. I get carried away sometimes.
I see what you're saying but there is nothing special about being unique. It does however help to create a bigger Big picture as we gain more perspectives.
Everybody is good at something we can all benefit from and 2 heads are better than 1 type deal.
It has nothing to do with trying to be special, lmao!
Now I understand @Daozen's quip, thank you!
It's about being useful.
I could be wrong but I think it would help us all to remember that anatta is not strictly a Buddhist experience but a Buddhist description of experience.
People of many walks of life tap into this truth including Atheists.
For me, the Buddhism comes in when trying to live in accordance with the facts (that everything changes, no-thing lasts forever and we suffer thinking we are serarate) more than just realizing them.
Agreed, we all have different backgrounds and that's what is brilliant about conversing with all you guys. We are not locked in to views that are simply in our local environment. We can get perspectives from all over the world.
Don't be sorry either, you have me a chance to share and reflect.
if resistance came up on my part, then that's great. You showed me something I need to address.
All the best with you and your young family!
I've also come to see I have to address my defensiveness. Not of my views because my view changes all the time but my logic.
It seems that being too attached to my logic could get in the way of appreciating another's view as much as being too attached to my views.
These are the kinds of things that puts splits in the Sangha if we aren't mindful.
That's true and a good insight.
Also very true. In fact Buddhism can become a kind of Spiritual Materialism wherein everyday clinging is replaced by a kind of spiritual clinging and pride. The classic example is the person addicted to going on long meditation retreats who looks down on everyday life as inferior and simply can't wait to go on the next retreat to get another hit. A particularly perceptive and open person without the 'baggage' of a philosophy may be able to drop their ego more easily than someone earnestly striving to be 'spiritual'.
AS the absolute authority on nothing, I hereby declare the authoritative authoritation authoritated authoritatively.
Now where is that coffee..oh yes...
[Boy did this thread take a turn.
]
We all have different carrots. Some are still beating themselves or others with stuck sticks ...
However there is hope for us donkey dharma practitioners ...
The path needs a bit of carrot and stick mentality but not so much that we only move by threat or promise. We can also move by stilling or being content with our 'inner mule' aka 'monkey mind' ... just not continually at the mercy of its requirements ...
It feels like we want to be the one striving for that carrot, and at the same time not knowing who that is.
In watching my grandma go through the aging process over the years (I am 39 and she is 89, so I have been watching this for a while now) and watching people suffer horribly, as their spouses become ill and suffer and die of cancer, as mothers' sad goodbyes to their children. I have not always experienced directly, but I have witnessed directly moments of searing, horrific suffering in people.
And the one thing I've determined is that those of us outside that suffering, cannot understand. And our lack of being there, of digging into a place we don't go to until we have to prevents us from really understanding suffering. We look at it from a place of attachments to our own lives and those we care about. But as with so many things in life, the worry and fear and apprehension and anxiety when we think about suffering is often far different in our minds. We put ourselves in the places of others and try to imagine from the outside looking in what their suffering is. Except we can't.
Not to lessen their suffering, it just seems that it's far different than we can imagine unless/until we are there. We pull strength and other things from places we cannot normally access until we need to. I see it every time a child is severely ill or injured and how their parents cope, I see it in spouses who do the same. They are suffering, no doubt. But they have no time to sit around and feel sorry for themselves the way we do when we try to put ourselves in their spots.
The suffering we make up in our minds is, I think, worse than actually going through it. Because when you are going through hell, you just do it. We are better off only dealing with our own suffering in the moment rather than contemplating dealing with worse sufferings later. Because we can't know how we will cope.
@karasti said:We put ourselves in the places of others and try to imagine from the outside looking in what their suffering is. Except we can't.
I think we can get a pretty good idea. The question is, do we really want to?
I'm really not sure. I suppose it depends on the case. My grandma now has a brain bleed. She is all doped up. She responds by squeezing hands, but it is clear she will be passing soon. No matter how I try to put myself into her spot, I can't. Because without being there, I don't know if she is in pain, if she is thinking, if she is hearing me andsuffering at not being able to respond.
All we can do, is approximate. And consider, for ourselves, what might bring US comfort at OUR time of passing (always assuming, of course, that when we pass, it will be in a comfortable bed, attended by medics, with our families around us.... who knows....?)
For example, if my legs get too warm, I get awful cramp in my feet, calves, and inner thighs.... I've told my daughter that if I'm old, infirm and can't communicate, but seem in pain for no apparent reason, to check my feet/legs. If they're contorted, it's cramp. I need a good rub....
Why would this be significant...?
About a week before my father died, he woke in the night, and could only say "it hurts... it hurts...." It was clear he was distinctly uncomfortable, and was writhing in an effort to gain some comfort....My mother stood by, helpless, not knowing where the pain was, or what to do.... after a few minutes, the pain went, and my father relaxed, but it bothered my mother absolutely crazy, that she had been powerless to help him...
My father was also frequently prone to foot/leg cramp, but this had not occurred to her, and still hasn't.
It's been 5 years since he died, she misses him more than ever. She's a changed person, and dwells in a perpetual state of silent sadness, declaring that 'she just wants to go'... she seems done with life, although she continues her existence and routine, and has a relatively active social life....
He was cremated, and now 'lives' in an urn, within an extremely beautiful outer clay vase, ultra-modern, very eye-catching.... Up in her room, still on 'his side' of the bed....
yet I hold this thought to myself.... he's beyond help or relief, but it plays on my mind, and I dare not tell my mother, because she would beat herself up with remorse that she didn't either guess or realise.... and of course, I could be completely wrong.... but I don't think I am....
So, I guess, selfishly, I advised my daughter of a possible outcome.... if I'm in pain with cramp, I'd like a warm and loving person to just help me get through it. Because it's a miserable, debilitating, painful experience, and going through it alone, in the dark of night, even now, is very unpleasant...