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"Do you exist?" is better reframed as "What do you take yourself to be?" Yes, you exist but not in the way that one normally imagines. To be or not to be, that is indeed the question.
"An uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.
"He assumes feeling to be the self…
"He assumes perception to be the self…
"He assumes fabrications to be the self…
"He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness."
— SN 22.85
[Rādha:] "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"
[The Buddha:] "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Rādha: when one is caught up [satta] there, tied up [visatta] there, one is said to be 'a being [satta].'
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling… perception… fabrications…
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Rādha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'"
— SN 23.2
To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
"You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy is created in the universe and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, ever vibration, every BTU of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world. You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that amid the energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.
And at one point, you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell him that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off you like children, their ways forever changed by you. And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, may the physicist let her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.
And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue in the heat of our own lives.
And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure, that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound and that they'll be comforted to know your energy is still around. According to the law of the conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone. You're just less orderly. Amen."
Some one asked a Tibetan monk/geshe (my sister's teacher) if it was true that we don't exist.
He thought briefly and then said, "Try slamming a car door on your hand and then try saying you do not exist."
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2015
People still get their knickers in a twist about self/not self, dependent origination and arising.
It really is the most simple of the Buddha's teachings.
Yet also the deepest, most profound one.
As ever, with The Buddha, nothing is ever as it seems.
Nor is it otherwise....
It's always important to clarify what you mean when you ask the question.
People debate over many things, a good example is the emptiness teachings.
You first need to establish what emptiness is before you debate over it.
Same with non self etc. @FoibleFull just because there is pain existing, doesn't mean a "you" that experiences it does. That's my understanding of it. So when people say "you" don't exist. They are not referring to the body. They are referring to the one that says this is "my" body. They are debating it's existence.
A monk saying slam a car door on your hand is a ridiculous answer. Lol. You wouldn't even be having a conversation if nothing existed. Everybody knows they are alive. You don't need to slam a door on your hand to know this.
But as what are you alive is the illusion.
It's really simple. Maybe that's the hard part idk. My two cents anyway. I love this topic lol.
Comments
Tee Hee
What a fun thread.
I sometimes wonder what happens when the search to 'find oneself' goes inward. What experience, arising, realisation do we attach to?
Wind. That can focus The Mind, wonderfully.....
If one attaches oneself to this realisation then one is (in a 'sense') still lost in mind's outward projection ie, Samsara
Samsara=Mind turned outward lost in its projection !
Nirvana=Mind turned inward realising its true nature !
But doesn't our true (real) existence happen outside the mind?
Aren't all of the mind the same?
"The mind is the root from which 'all' things grow!"
~BodhiDharma~
What exists 'outside' the mind ? (But then one must also ask "What 'is' mind?" )
"Do you exist?" is better reframed as "What do you take yourself to be?" Yes, you exist but not in the way that one normally imagines. To be or not to be, that is indeed the question.
[Rādha:] "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"
[The Buddha:] "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Rādha: when one is caught up [satta] there, tied up [visatta] there, one is said to be 'a being [satta].'
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling… perception… fabrications…
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Rādha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'"
— SN 23.2
Thanks guys,
I feel that as we bring attentiveness/attention to what it means to be [conscious] we find that being is dependent on a container or experience.
... however as has been said, there is a space/emptiness/independent non-thing/not being that is possible.
... oh look a finger ... I think it went that way ...
http://www.awakeblogger.com/the-meaning-of-the-finger-pointing-to-the-moon
"You want a physicist to speak at your funeral. You want the physicist to talk to your grieving family about the conservation of energy, so they will understand that your energy has not died. You want the physicist to remind your sobbing mother about the first law of thermodynamics; that no energy is created in the universe and none is destroyed. You want your mother to know that all your energy, ever vibration, every BTU of heat, every wave of every particle that was her beloved child remains with her in this world. You want the physicist to tell your weeping father that amid the energies of the cosmos, you gave as good as you got.
And at one point, you'd hope that the physicist would step down from the pulpit and walk to your brokenhearted spouse there in the pew and tell him that all the photons that ever bounced off your face, all the particles whose paths were interrupted by your smile, by the touch of your hair, hundreds of trillions of particles, have raced off you like children, their ways forever changed by you. And as your widow rocks in the arms of a loving family, may the physicist let her know that all the photons that bounced from you were gathered in the particle detectors that are her eyes, that those photons created within her constellations of electromagnetically charged neurons whose energy will go on forever.
And the physicist will remind the congregation of how much of all our energy is given off as heat. There may be a few fanning themselves with their programs as he says it. And he will tell them that the warmth that flowed through you in life is still here, still part of all that we are, even as we who mourn continue in the heat of our own lives.
And you'll want the physicist to explain to those who loved you that they need not have faith; indeed, they should not have faith. Let them know that they can measure, that scientists have measured precisely the conservation of energy and found it accurate, verifiable and consistent across space and time. You can hope your family will examine the evidence and satisfy themselves that the science is sound and that they'll be comforted to know your energy is still around. According to the law of the conservation of energy, not a bit of you is gone. You're just less orderly. Amen."
From here.
Some one asked a Tibetan monk/geshe (my sister's teacher) if it was true that we don't exist.
He thought briefly and then said, "Try slamming a car door on your hand and then try saying you do not exist."
People still get their knickers in a twist about self/not self, dependent origination and arising.
It really is the most simple of the Buddha's teachings.
Yet also the deepest, most profound one.
As ever, with The Buddha, nothing is ever as it seems.
Nor is it otherwise....
It's always important to clarify what you mean when you ask the question.
People debate over many things, a good example is the emptiness teachings.
You first need to establish what emptiness is before you debate over it.
Same with non self etc.
@FoibleFull just because there is pain existing, doesn't mean a "you" that experiences it does. That's my understanding of it. So when people say "you" don't exist. They are not referring to the body. They are referring to the one that says this is "my" body. They are debating it's existence.
A monk saying slam a car door on your hand is a ridiculous answer. Lol. You wouldn't even be having a conversation if nothing existed. Everybody knows they are alive. You don't need to slam a door on your hand to know this.
But as what are you alive is the illusion.
It's really simple. Maybe that's the hard part idk. My two cents anyway. I love this topic lol.