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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
It's been fairly well accepted that that's not a wholly accurate translation of the First two verses of the Dhammapada. This is a more scholarly and more accurate translation....
@federica said:
It's been fairly well accepted that that's not a wholly accurate translation of the First two verses of the Dhammapada. This is a more scholarly and more accurate translation....
-Well, there are certainly scholarly folks who accept, "All that we are is the result of what we have thought..." as the translation. For me, the words mean that what we are now, is a direct result of our thoughts then. Furthermore the definition of what we are changes with the subject (e.g. our daughter, son and husband's definitions of us would be different as a result of our thoughts then). Lastly, to get back to my answer to the question posed by: @lobster. I think therefore I am, something thinks therefore something exists, or mindspace perceives thought arising therefore mindspace exists, to me all means nearly the same thing, Of course I am over simplifying this, but then again, I am a simple person :-)
@Shim said:
Bunch of people discussing whether they exist of not.
Gotta love those Buddhists!
We iz luvvable
People are discussing two things, one the personal identity. Everyone probably agrees 'persona' exist.
Then the arising self not having the nature of anything inherently real or independent. We Buddhists don't have a soul, which is quite good when making a deal with imaginary demons ... I got a fantasy tin of sardines for my eternal selfie. Still consider myself up on the deal ...
Makes me think of the final scene in A Beautiful Mind the movie. The movie was about the life of a schizophrenic man who by the end of the movie was doing really good and was even teaching at a university. The man had someone come up and talk to him to congratulate him for winning an award or whatever. So he turns to the student next to him and says "do you see this person? is he real?"
When my feet are cold first thing in the morning, and it's still dark out, and I stub my toe on the vacuum I didn't put away, I'm pretty sure all the yelling means I exist in some fashion.
I like presents. My 40th birthday is coming, if anyone is so inclined
Do I exist? I don't know. I used to take the phrase "I think therefore I am" to heart. But in recent years, in expanding how I view things, I realized proof of anything is completely unobtainable. I now say, "I seem to think, therefore I might exist. But I might be wrong."
Offered partially in jest, partially in all seriousness.
@Metaphasic said:
Do I exist? I don't know. I used to take the phrase "I think therefore I am" to heart. But in recent years, in expanding how I view things, I realized proof of anything is completely unobtainable. I now say, "I seem to think, therefore I might exist. But I might be wrong."
Offered partially in jest, partially in all seriousness.
What is truer. "I think therefore I exist.
Or "I exist, therefore I can think "
I'm pretty sure I've had moments without thinking, I didn't stop existing
@Earthninja said:
That's what I learnt from a teacher who gets people out of thinking they are "presence or witness"
There is a bid difference between being presence and being a witness. Actually, those are opposites.
@Earthninja said:
We are simply infinite potential manifesting as all of this.
Both infinite and potential are unknown, making this statement a guess at best. It's enough to look at what is known without doubt. Presence. It may sound obvious and unimportant, but not only is it true, it's also fruitful.
@Barah witness and presence have been used many times from teachers. Maybe your definition is different. That's cool. It's all words.
There is also an awareness of presence. You are aware you are aware. THAT which is aware of presence is nameless.
You know you exist, even the intuition of existence arises and is observed by ...
"Is" requires presence. To say "THAT" is, is to say it is present. Since it is not present, it IS not. There is only presence, and that is "THAT". Non-duality. If you make THAT into something different than presence, you create duality which is not there.
@Barah we see talking about things that words do more harm than good, you have already misinterpreted what I meant
I think I'll leave it there haha.
All the best friend
I am a figment of my imagination
But to have an imagination
Thus I must be
Therefore, I exist.
Do Da, Do Da Day.
Don't worry @Barah andd @Earthninja, When you play mind games around here, someone is going to pretend it's an orange and squeeze, squeeze, squeeze.
When that happens, best thing is to just
SMILE,
There is a lot of roughhousing around here, but it's usually just that.
Yes, your words will sometimes get bent (maybe twisted violently )
And your meaning lost in the smoke, sometimes.
But don't worry. This is a seriously irreverent lot with an often strange sense of humor.
Just know when to duck and , when you don't want to duck, how to catch those spears and arrows in flight. It's fun, once you get the hang of it.
Also have your first aid kit handy.
When asked about the existence of a self, the Buddha often refused to answer. Instead, he pointed out the drawbacks of thinking in terms of existence and non-existence, and recommended that one view phenomena as arising and passing away, based on impermanent conditions. This means that instead of the question "Is there a self?", it is recommended to ask, "How does the perception of self originate?" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta
The Kaccanagotta sutta is very clear, whoever wrote this though clearly didn't understand the sutta when they added their own interpretation of it.
@bookworm said:
The Kaccanagotta sutta is very clear, whoever wrote this though clearly didn't understand the sutta when they added their own interpretation of it.
Perhaps, perhaps not. That is a dance of it's own.
I am a figment of my imagination
But to have an imagination
Thus I must be
Therefore, I exist.
Do Da, Do Da Day.
Don't worry Barah andd Earthninja, When you play mind games around here, someone is going to pretend it's an orange and squeeze, squeeze, squeeze.
When that happens, best thing is to just
SMILE,
There is a lot of roughhousing around here, but it's usually just that.
Yes, your words will sometimes get bent (maybe twisted violently )
And your meaning lost in the smoke, sometimes.
But don't worry. This is a seriously irreverent lot with an often strange sense of humor.
Just know when to duck and , when you don't want to duck, how to catch those spears and arrows in flight. It's fun, once you get the hang of it.
Also have your first aid kit handy.
Peace to all
This is all mind games?! And I thought I was here to glean enlightened wisdom from Buddhas around the world.
DOH!
@Earthninja said:
This is all mind games?! And I thought I was here to glean enlightened wisdom from Buddhas around the world.
DOH!
Well, it's not ALL mind games, but, Don't you just love it?
Like the monkeys typing on their typewriters, sooner or later you will come across a gem or two.
These samadhi states are known and superceded in meditation. It may take a while ... but it is something to look forward to whilst we are sitting around doing Nothing ...
Don't be sorry! I'm not always good at expressing myself via mobile phone! Let alone talking about what's incredibly hard to talk about in general. I confuse myself half the time.
It depends on the topic! Where my kettle is, I've got that one nailed.
Does my kettle have true existence as a separate thing, huh?!? Wait who am I that perceived the kettle.
If I don't know who I am, what does that say about other people?!
Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a person?
F#%%^ it I'm off to make a coffee, anybody want one?
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@Earthninja said:
It depends on the topic! Where my kettle is, I've got that one nailed.
Does my kettle have true existence as a separate thing, huh?!? Wait who am I that perceived the kettle.
I think if it did it would be hard to experience the tea... Could we truly interact with something that is separate?
Existence and non-existence fall where they may unless we're talking about a piping hot Chai tea on a cold evening porch.
@Earthninja said:
It depends on the topic! Where my kettle is, I've got that one nailed.
Does my kettle have true existence as a separate thing, huh?!? Wait who am I that perceived the kettle.
If I don't know who I am, what does that say about other people?!
Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a person?
F#%%^ it I'm off to make a coffee, anybody want one?
In the end, its how good the coffee is. All merges into the coffee. All flows from the coffee...
Comments
It's been fairly well accepted that that's not a wholly accurate translation of the First two verses of the Dhammapada.
This is a more scholarly and more accurate translation....
-Well, there are certainly scholarly folks who accept, "All that we are is the result of what we have thought..." as the translation. For me, the words mean that what we are now, is a direct result of our thoughts then. Furthermore the definition of what we are changes with the subject (e.g. our daughter, son and husband's definitions of us would be different as a result of our thoughts then). Lastly, to get back to my answer to the question posed by: @lobster. I think therefore I am, something thinks therefore something exists, or mindspace perceives thought arising therefore mindspace exists, to me all means nearly the same thing, Of course I am over simplifying this, but then again, I am a simple person :-)
Answer to OP: I don't know. heh.
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/the-universe-might-not-actually-exist-scientists-say/ar-BBlqxBn?ocid=spartandhp
There we go....... The end! hehe
I'll settle for Thay's notion of "Interbeing."
We inter-are. I inter-am.
Bunch of people discussing whether they exist of not.
Gotta love those Buddhists!
And that's not even the half of it, wait until the rebirth discussion comes up.
And kamma. Don't forget the Kamma. Holy shit! Noooo!! I mean crap! ... no..... Oh damn! ...! Oh no, I meant...Oh, I give up!
But are we though?
People are discussing two things, one the personal identity. Everyone probably agrees 'persona' exist.
Then the arising self not having the nature of anything inherently real or independent. We Buddhists don't have a soul, which is quite good when making a deal with imaginary demons ... I got a fantasy tin of sardines for my eternal selfie. Still consider myself up on the deal ...
We might be just simerlashuns in a space alien computer game.
Do you exist ?
I don't know!
Makes me think of the final scene in A Beautiful Mind the movie. The movie was about the life of a schizophrenic man who by the end of the movie was doing really good and was even teaching at a university. The man had someone come up and talk to him to congratulate him for winning an award or whatever. So he turns to the student next to him and says "do you see this person? is he real?"
Nothing exists yet, imagine the possibilities.
So who knows that 'you' don't know then ?
Yes.
Presence.
@Barah is presence ever separate from anything else?
All these bleedin' impossible questions, and I can't even decide what to have for my dinner.
Never. Presence and "anything" are never separate.
When my feet are cold first thing in the morning, and it's still dark out, and I stub my toe on the vacuum I didn't put away, I'm pretty sure all the yelling means I exist in some fashion.
I like presents. My 40th birthday is coming, if anyone is so inclined
That's what I learnt from a teacher who gets people out of thinking they are "presence or witness"
It is an auspicious thing to "be the witness" and not just the person. The eternal watcher, but apparently it isn't the full seeing.
Do I exist? I don't know. I used to take the phrase "I think therefore I am" to heart. But in recent years, in expanding how I view things, I realized proof of anything is completely unobtainable. I now say, "I seem to think, therefore I might exist. But I might be wrong."
Offered partially in jest, partially in all seriousness.
What is truer. "I think therefore I exist.
Or "I exist, therefore I can think
"
I'm pretty sure I've had moments without thinking, I didn't stop existing
To paraphrase (or downright plagiarize) that western dude, what's his name: I am, therefore I exist.
Now back to those Doc Martin reruns.
Or was that Dr Who?
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
And who is watching the watcher? Are we all just lost socks in the laundromat of oblivion? Oi dunno!
We are simply infinite potential manifesting as all of this. Haha
There is a bid difference between being presence and being a witness. Actually, those are opposites.
Both infinite and potential are unknown, making this statement a guess at best. It's enough to look at what is known without doubt. Presence. It may sound obvious and unimportant, but not only is it true, it's also fruitful.
@Barah witness and presence have been used many times from teachers. Maybe your definition is different. That's cool. It's all words.
There is also an awareness of presence. You are aware you are aware. THAT which is aware of presence is nameless.
You know you exist, even the intuition of existence arises and is observed by ...
Whatever. Hahah
It's all smoke and mirrors.
THAT which is aware of presence is nameless.
No it's not...it's called "THAT"
@Earthninja said:
"Is" requires presence. To say "THAT" is, is to say it is present. Since it is not present, it IS not. There is only presence, and that is "THAT". Non-duality. If you make THAT into something different than presence, you create duality which is not there.
@Barah we see talking about things that words do more harm than good, you have already misinterpreted what I meant
I think I'll leave it there haha.
All the best friend
Oh hell, why not?
I am a figment of my imagination
But to have an imagination
Thus I must be
Therefore, I exist.
Do Da, Do Da Day.
Don't worry @Barah andd @Earthninja, When you play mind games around here, someone is going to pretend it's an orange and squeeze, squeeze, squeeze.
When that happens, best thing is to just
SMILE,
There is a lot of roughhousing around here, but it's usually just that.
)
and , when you don't want to duck, how to catch those spears and arrows in flight. It's fun, once you get the hang of it. 
Yes, your words will sometimes get bent (maybe twisted violently
And your meaning lost in the smoke, sometimes.
But don't worry. This is a seriously irreverent lot with an often strange sense of humor.
Just know when to duck
Also have your first aid kit handy.
Peace to all
The Kaccanagotta sutta is very clear, whoever wrote this though clearly didn't understand the sutta when they added their own interpretation of it.
Perhaps, perhaps not. That is a dance of it's own.
This is all mind games?! And I thought I was here to glean enlightened wisdom from Buddhas around the world.
DOH!
@Earthninja said:witness and presence have been used many times from teachers.
So what's the difference? There seems to be a lot of new-age jargon flying around at the moment, it's difficult to keep up with.
DOH!
Well, it's not ALL mind games, but,
Don't you just love it? 
Like the monkeys typing on their typewriters, sooner or later you will come across a gem or two.
Sorry, If I did that.
Now you are dancing.
Thanks everyone for existing in a mundane if not a super-mundane/Buddhist sense.
There are certain activities during which we lose ourselves; sex, sport and dance being some ...
http://www.ru.org/sports/spirituality-the-hidden-side-of-sports.html
These samadhi states are known and superceded in meditation. It may take a while ... but it is something to look forward to whilst we are sitting around doing Nothing ...
Don't be sorry! I'm not always good at expressing myself via mobile phone! Let alone talking about what's incredibly hard to talk about in general. I confuse myself half the time.
Half the time is pretty good going.
Half the time is damn good!
It depends on the topic! Where my kettle is, I've got that one nailed.
Does my kettle have true existence as a separate thing, huh?!? Wait who am I that perceived the kettle.
If I don't know who I am, what does that say about other people?!
Am I a butterfly dreaming I'm a person?
F#%%^ it I'm off to make a coffee, anybody want one?
I think if it did it would be hard to experience the tea... Could we truly interact with something that is separate?
Existence and non-existence fall where they may unless we're talking about a piping hot Chai tea on a cold evening porch.
Not enlightenment perhaps but nice.
In the end, its how good the coffee is. All merges into the coffee. All flows from the coffee...
Nuffink like merging wiv a nice cup of Rosy Lee!
I'm as real as Donald Duck, Dumbo (The Elefant) and He-Man. I'm serious. I'm not kidding.