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anxiety
marcitko
Veteran
Hi all,
My main problem currently is anxiety. I feel at least a low level of anxiety pretty much all of the time (mostly in the legs). When I meditate, it goes away, but comes back soon after.
I am wondering if there are any practices I can do or questions I can ask myself that might help to start remedy it?
For instance, for depression, I have discovered the question: "What's the worst thing that could happen?" to be very effective. Once I know what it is, I see it's acceptable, and the depression aleviates. So, in a sense, depression masks anxiety. But I've made no headway on the latter.
Any tips?
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How exactly do you feel anxiety in the legs?
If I try to locate the anxiety in the body, that's where I mostly notice it. Also some in the chest area, and obviously in the mind.
I've had tons of experience with anxiety over the years, and without reverting to say Buddhism study has helped, I would say humor helps my anxiety. Reading or watching movie/tv shows that are funny do help alleviate anxiety.
If I may, I'd like to ask you how does anxiety feel when it affects your legs? Do you get twitchy or is it painful or ? Just curious.
I am quite intrigued by having 'anxious legs'. I have difficulty relating to this. Is it like being 'weak at the knees?' Perhaps a sort of weakness in the legs?
If so then I would suggest a conscious visualisation of strength and stability. A more advanced exploration of the nature of the 'anxiety in the legs', exploring its nature, might find it is no different, in essence empty, like happy legs, courageous legs or funny legs ...
Also you might be able to get a grant ...
Here to help
Haha, great Monty Python video
@Lobster what do you mean by "empty"? Is it akin to irrelevant/accepting? Looking at the feeling right now, I find it difficult to accept it staying there "forever". Maybe that is the problem/mistake?
Regarding the location of the anxiety. Several years ago I stumbled upon an exercise of locating the sense of negative emotion by asking yourself questions. Such as: "How far away is it from the ceiling/head/feet/xyz". That exercise was quite powerful as I gained some detachment from the anxiety - and once claerly seen/located - determined for it not to control my life. Don't know how much I've succeeded but ever since I've had some success at locating feelings in the body. (Side-thought: Is this vipassana?)
It's not weak or painful legs. Maybe tingling, somewhat fearful legs
.
Do feelings cause thoughts or thoughts feelings? This seems an important question in the context of anxiety. To me, currently, it seems that thoughts cause feelings, but once even one or two subtle negative thoughts are taken on-board (causing the feeling of anxiety), a vicious self-affirming loop is establishes where the feeling takes control and generates more negative thoughts.
What do you think?
Doing some physical activity can be helpful. Sometimes just thinking about something else will work ( an example of Right Effort ).
An article from newscientist suggesting that people with anxiety may have an altered perception of the world with reference to research into responses to sound.
It's suggested that the "...results could eventually be used to design better treatments for anxiety disorders. “Maybe we have to tackle the abnormal perceptual process first,”... A neurofeedback training programme that helps people realise when their brains are overreacting might be useful."
An interesting read. Thank you.
Hi @marcitko - you said "Do feelings cause thoughts or thoughts feelings? This seems an important question in the context of anxiety. To me, currently, it seems that thoughts cause feelings, but once even one or two subtle negative thoughts are taken on-board (causing the feeling of anxiety), a vicious self-affirming loop is establishes where the feeling takes control and generates more negative thoughts."
I rez a whole lot with what you said because I have had quite a few experiences that seem to prove that out - and the mindfulness practice and generally studying Buddhism has helped me deal with it. It's been such a relief to discover that I can nip it in the bud - when I'm mindful, that is (sometimes, I forget to remember).
I think it's a many layered response. Feelings arise in us in response to some sort of sensory experience. We have the option to think about them further, or note their presence, sit with them and observe them as they wander off. I think it can happen both ways depending on the experience and our causes and conditions. Our nervous system reacts very quickly to things before we have the chance to logically process them. Even though obviously the nervous system is responding because the brain perceived something.
The other day, my son went back to his college town. It was very late at night so I was sleeping. He was supposed to text when he got home. I woke up at my normal time and had no text from him. So in that case, my logical thought process was "No text. I hope he is ok. I hope he got back to his dorm ok. I hope nothing is wrong" is what lead to feelings of worry, stress, anxiety.
However, in the case of driving 70mph on the interstate and someone pulls out in front of you and you have to react immediately, that response is much faster and not a result of logical thought bringing on a state of worry/stress/anxiety, but rather the nervous system giving a big shot of adrenaline so you can respond to the threat immediately. Only a few moments after does your logical brain start to process it and along comes that different type of stress and anxiety of "oh my god, we almost died."
Generalized anxiety tends to be much more of the former, of course. We can control our bodily responses and those sensations of feeling energy trapped in our bodies. You might look into The Tapping Solution. My mom does this and finds it helps a lot. It is a lot like you talk about, locating energy. But it helps you to learn how to disperse it and how to deal with it instead of just noting it's presence. Once you learn how to do that, you can take it further and learn how to disperse it without the physical tapping action. The tapping itself (I feel) does not do much. But it is a physical notation that allows you to bring your body under your control again and you can use it as a step to get to that point.
Is the anxiety anxious?
Is the depression depressed?
Take a look.
"I'm anxious and I ought not to be anxious, but because I'm anxious ...I'm anxious because I'm anxious !"
According to some, when studying "Dependent Origination" it is the arising of "feeling" ( or some use the term "sensation" ) that holds the key as to whether wholesome or unwholesome experience is had...It's a matter of working with the six links that come before it in the chain/sequence of events....
I am talking of anatta
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta
Annatta is an experiental understanding. We have an irrelevant but prevalent and transitory grasping at anxiety or other impediments. We eventually understand fear, craving, anger [my main impediment] etc with insight and attention. We find impediments have no independent existence. So we begin to understand the dependent origination that @Shoshin mentions ...
Such impediments are dependent on karma, body tension, emotional hang ups, conditioning etc
Buddhism offers a way out.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratītyasamutpāda
Took a look. "I'm anxious". "I" fell away from the thought. No more problem, at least for a while. Hope some of that insight sticks.
Yeah, exactly!
Looked at the texts you and @lobster linked. It's been a while since I read such heady texts but they do make some sense.
I've heard it said that the bodies response to fear and anger in terms of the fight or flight reaction causes blood to flow to the arm muscles in response to anger and the legs to fear. So that may have something to do with feeling the sensation in the legs?
In general I like Shantideva's advice:
If there is something you can do (about the situation), why worry?
If there is nothing you can do, why worry?
Sorry for heading to the heady heights, when first we need to find our legs ...
Bringing the attention to the breath, one of the oldest, simplest and calming meditations, allows us to explore the nature, location and effect on our peace/calm ...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati
In GB we await the developing 'Ministry of Well Being'
http://www.themindfulnessinitiative.org.uk
We are moving into the mainstream. Stay calm. The stream entrants are coming ...
If it were a matter of choice, no one would be anxious.
I understand the feeling in your legs, I get this too when I am anxious. For me this happens mostly at night when trying to sleep, and I find chanting a calming mantra helps to subdue the causes of my worries and settle my body. Om mani padme houm, or the heart sutra mantra both help me enormously.
Well, the way it has worked for me is not in preventing worry, or anger too. Instead, after they arise it affects the way I process or engage with the emotion, do I get swept up by it or am I able to regulate the emotion?
I acknowledge certain emotions can be overpowering and resist conscious control. With anxiety in particular too, one of the things that you CAN do is to avoid the situation entirely which is often not ideal. I think though that in Buddhist practice we learn how to improve that ability to let things go so that the above advice can be more effective at allowing the fear to drop away.
People who suffer more than a typical amount of anxiety cannot go through that process normally. Just realizing they shouldn't worry/be anxious makes them more anxious because they cannot get control of it by themselves. Sometimes it is something that we have created and can work through on our own. And sometimes, just like depression, is is much stronger and needs more intervention.
I dealt with some anxiety but meditation and yoga helped immensely. Not just in managing the sensations but in giving me confidence to be myself and not worry what others thought. There are things I do in life different than others to alleviate things that cause me anxiety and it works quite well.
Good point @karasti, if that's the situation for @techie they would likely benefit from additional mental health support. Is that sort of thing an option for you living in India?
Anx"I"ety ... This "I" it would seem is the root cause of ones ongoing suffering...The cling"I"ng and grasp"I"ng self, not only does it attempt to cling to the pleasant, this craving overflows and the grasping and clinging seeks out to the unpleasant too... Craving is like a void that needs to be filled at any cost...Pleasant (desirable) unpleasant (aversion) it matters not to the mind that craves...
You might also like to check out this link "Dealing with Anxiety"
"Having a sense of humor
How do we deal with our minds when we become very self-centered and anxious? It is important to learn to laugh at ourselves. We really do have a monkey mind when it comes to anxiety, don’t we? We worry about this and then we worry about that, like a monkey jumping all over the place. We have to be able to laugh at the monkey instead of taking it so seriously and to develop a sense of humor about our problems. Sometimes our problems are pretty funny, aren’t they? If we could step back and look at our problems, many of them would seem quite humorous. If a character in a soap opera had this problem or was acting this way, we would laugh at it. Sometimes I do that: I step back and look at myself, "Oh, look how Chodron feels so sorry for herself. Sniff, sniff. There’s so many sentient beings having so many different experiences in the universe, and poor Chodron just stubbed her toe.""
In my family, anxiety runs from clinical paranoia, through to high anxiety and culminating in easily stressed. So it is something I am well aware of.
For example yesterday a minor event caused my stress/anxiety level to go through the roof. Completely disproportionate to the cause. I was like the dreaded boiling pot of the lobsterian hell realms. I was being boiled alive ... and I was the boiler ...
What to do? Firstly I knew what was happening because my breathing became shallow and agitated, the opposite of smooth relaxed breathing. So I was mindful and aware. Now I could sit, breathe, have a chat over a hot drink. The agitated energy came down from the roof, the breath settled a bit. Physical work helped to burn up the energy.
This happens from time to time. Regular meditation and mindfulness centered on the breath works for me. Phew!
I can toadally relate to you being the boiler, @lobster. I went to the ER yesterday (or was it the day before) - same stuff. I hate to admit to myself that it could be anxiety and not all the other things that are 'wrong' with me. Here I've been nonchalantly walking around thinking oh, this Buddhism gig and the mindfulness, etc. is 'the answer' to all my problems and yet here I am, ending up all too often in the ER with some medical personnel almost rolling their eyes when they transport me to the hospital. My neck, head and shoulders were in such pain on the way and I was beside myself because it usually doesn't get that bad, but after chatting with the paramedic, by the time we got there, I was in much less pain.
^^^ dukkha hides in the body as well as the mind. They are interdependent. Look after yourself.
Thanks everyone for the comments. I'm happy to report that my anxiety levels have decreased considerably since opening the thread and there are no more "anxious legs"
I credit @genkaku 's strange question/koan, and my newly established routine of exercise plus meditation.
Am hopeful this positive trend will continue. Will keep you posted.
The Fight or Flight response is our brain's way of dealing with depression in that it is perceiving something is seriously amiss and anxiety rallies the body to survive somehow. The body holds these things in the way of aches and pains or jumpiness, trying to get relief. Weird that anxiety could be generated as a means to escape from depression or other mental disorder. Weirder that mental health professionals will tell you that some anxiety (low level) is normal and healthy. Glad to hear you are exercising and sitting. It will help. It is helping. Be confident that this will pass. Staying in the present moment with vigorous exercise and consistent mindfulness is a good path. Better than meds, but sometimes the meds are necessary. Hopefully, short term. Be well.
Try not to feed your anxiety, just let it be there when it comes, its there and thats the truth, dont fight it and try to change it, but smile (even if you dont want to) and dont take it personaly, its impermanent.
So let it go and then go back to the object of your meditation (your breath/mantra/metta object).
If it pops ups again do the same process, you are then weakening the anxiety, and you dont feed it anymore.
The anxiety learns you to go deeper in your meditation, its a teacher
@marcitko anxiety is basically fear. All fears can be traced back to the fear of death. If we can come to terms with our inevitable death we can come to terms with anxiety. There is a Buddhist exercise of visualising the dead body from the moment of death to when it turns into dust. You may find it useful.
I rather liked what @Namada said.
If everything makes us anxious, then we need some respite/space.
I am a great believer in 'led meditations'. Many can be found on youtube. Some are designed to reprogram the anxiety brain loops with a more manageable interior landscape.
This sort of thing ...
Does anyone ever think that anxiety is their body's language and it is saying, "you aren't moving the right way, change direction"? If it were anxiety in the face of a lion it would mean danger, move away, so if it is generalized anxiety might it not mean the same and that the subject remains beyond conscious awareness? When is a message static or meaningful? When is acceptance used to ignore?
I don't think anxiety is the 'body's language' - except if it's saying you have too many problems and you're not handling them very well at all! Fear is what makes us run in the face of obvious danger like the lion. Anxiety is a different beast. Anxiety tell us that you need to calm yourself down so that you can take a really good look within.