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@lobster said:
No regular practice is also a stuck behavour.
how come?
You have to explain certain things in the common language. For Buddhists this may be a regular practice. Otherwise you will be stuck as an outsider, that is not skilful no matter the free flowing nature of being 'unstuck' ...
Not really. As I said most Buddhist practices aim to develop skillful mental qualities, whether it be calm or insight or metta or contentment, or the perfections in Mahayana, or whatever. I wonder if you are confusing the goal of practice with the attitude to practice?
@Barah said:> From my experience, a regular practice is a direct sign of someone getting stuck.
Not what I have seen at all. In my experience people who get stuck generally give up practice. Practice can take many forms of course. It also depends on where people start from, and what they want or expect.
Truly fruitful practice is progressively dynamic. Of course, change can be achieved through repetition, but it is significantly slower. It can be used as an entry point, but if someone is not moving forward, he is probably doing something wrong. In most cases, this comes as a result of wrong assumptions and/or false goals.
Not really. As I said most Buddhist practices aim to develop skillful mental qualities, whether it be calm or insight or metta or contentment, or the perfections in Mahayana, or whatever. I wonder if you are confusing the** goal** of practice with the _attitude_ to practice?
Why do you do Buddhist practice?
Hmmm! I don't think I'm confusing them, but then again, the degree to which one can allow phenomena to arise and pass unmolested by our conditioned impulses, appears to be the same degree to which the goal and the attitude can look pretty indistinguishable from each other.
An adversarial perspective promoting a self verses others stance, needs to see differences to maintain it's tribal boundary's where as a more transcendent perspective has no such need.
And as to why do** I **practice???
Well at this point it's probably because I've really got nothing better to do?
Over the weekend, I found a quote in one of my notebooks about the potential of a beginners mind. I suddenly don't feel quite so bad about being and remaining a beginner at meditation.
“In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert’s there are few”
― Shunryu Suzuki
@how said:> My posting repeatedly highlighted the words natural & deliberate when speaking about thoughts within meditation.
What is the practical difference? Do you mean random stuff v. deciding to think about something?
Sure!
Dogen's instructions for zazen come to mind.
Don't try to think.
Don't try not to think.
Just sitting with no deliberate thought is the important aspect of zazen.
The OP spoke of the difficulty of emptying his mind, even when he was not actively thinking of something.
Firstly.. the notion that the mind should be emptied could be queried and
secondly...to actively not think of something is very much the activity of thinking.
There are countless different ways to meditate. I would first offer the question of why he thought he should try to isolate the mind (empty it) from the continuous flow of data that is life?
Secondly, I would suggest that his difficulty is not about the flow of data but is really about his relationship to that data.
Thinking, here, neither needs to be embraced or rejected in meditation. Natural thinking is a thought flow that isn't molested by our conditioned impulses. Deliberate thinking is a thought flow that is molested by our conditioned
impulses.
My meditation is my attempt at allowing all sense gates and skandhas, a free and open space upon this stage called life. My practice is my attempt to not participate in any deification or obfuscation of one sense gate or skandha over any other.
@Dhammika
While I know of no destination to reach for beyond what this moment offers
and certainly shy away from folks needing to proclaim their spiritual arrivals but
wasn't the Buddha someone who trumpeted his destination far & wide.
At times the tricks played by the professional confidence trickster AKA the ego can be very convincing...So user/buyer beware .....before buying into any thoughts that seem too good to be true
@Barah said:
Truly fruitful practice is progressively dynamic. Of course, change can be achieved through repetition, but it is significantly slower. It can be used as an entry point, but if someone is not moving forward, he is probably doing something wrong. In most cases, this comes as a result of wrong assumptions and/or false goals.
These are simply generalizations that certainly do not match the wide range of differing conditions which apply to a life of practice.
Because each moment offers a plethora of variable conditions to each practitioner, change of itself, is as unreliable a meter upon which to measure a practice as consistency can be.
Some states of practice require journeys through states of aridity with no end in sight, where ones practice appears neither fruitful or progressively dynamic and one's unfailing acceptance of that very lack of apparent change is what is actually called for.
There are also numerous examples of charismatic and progressively dynamic teachers who have managed to f-ck up royally who obviously present little evidence of their coresponding right assumptions and/or right goals.
I think if one wished to find markers to judge anyone's practice, I'd suggest the manifestations of compassion or tenderness or love or empathy or benevolence or sympathy or equinimity or wisdom to be a better bet.
@how said:
I think if one wished to find markers to judge anyone's practice, I'd suggest the manifestations of compassion or tenderness or love or empathy or benevolence or sympathy or equinimity or wisdom to be a better bet.
Ah ha!
So it is not how enlightened, how many spiritual pushups or degree of mindfulness one achieves. I knew it!
This change of emphasis from 'it works for me' to 'it works for others' is the key. Wisdom for example is not 'I iz wizer' but 'this course of action/being is wiser'.
Could it be master plan? I think so. Many thanks @how.
@how said: Firstly.. the notion that the mind should be emptied could be queried and
secondly...to actively not think of something is very much the activity of thinking.
It depends what kind of meditation one is doing. In samatha the mind gradually and naturally calms, it's not a deliberate repression of thoughts. What you are describing is more like vipassana-style meditation, where one observes and accepts whatever arises in the mind. In any case it's clear that there are different styles of meditation with different goals, and it's misleading to present only one method as authentic.
I think there is a time to take stock of one has developed compassion or other heart qualities. But that is actually quite far. That is the third turning of dharma in that if you think you have realized your nature and the nature of reality then you are deceived if you are not manifesting the Budhas qualities.
But that's actually quite far on the path. Dare I say at the last part?
What is expected here early in the path is we have an understanding of why we are doing whatever deliberate act that we are doing. And we can ask ourselves and be aware and check ourselves.
Not everyone subscribes to the "3 turnings of the wheel" idea, so it's not a common frame of reference. What we can do here is try to be clear about the different styles of meditation in different schools.
I would say three turnings are not universal. But they are common.
My point was that right now we can be aware of our motives, but that if we think we have Buddhism figured out then at that point comes the meaning of the third turning where if we think we have realized emptiness we may be wrong and looking for Buddha qualities is proof of the pudding.
It's not a bad idea to read others method of meditation but you can't do them all. At least not extensive or all with open mind and not just looking to say you tried it.
Natural thinking is a thought flow that isn't molested by our conditioned impulses.
Deliberate thinking is a thought flow that is molested by our conditioned
impulses.
Come to think of it - All thinking is natural. The label "delibërate" doesn't make it any less natural. My "deliberate" response to this thread was the result of seeing the thread and then feeling the impulse to reply. There is nothing unnatural about this "deliberate" thought. All thinking is spontaneous simply because there isn't a thinker.
“And what, bhikkhus, are volitional formations? There are these six classes of volition: volition regarding forms, volition regarding sounds, volition regarding odours, volition regarding tastes, volition regarding tactile objects, volition regarding mental phenomena. This is called volitional formations. With the arising of contact there is the arising of volitional formations. With the cessation of contact there is the cessation of volitional formations.
@Jeffrey said: It's not a bad idea to read others method of meditation but you can't do them all.
Perhaps not, but I think it's useful to have wider experience and understanding of different approaches to practice so that we can make an informed choice and find what works best for us. In my experience it isn't a case of one size fits all, and to some extent I think meditation is a personal journey of exploration, which means that experimentation is actually a positive thing.
Sometimes people just stick with the approach they were first taught, but IMO this can limit development and lead to attachment, sometimes even to sectarianism, eg: "What I was taught is the only proper way to meditate". And of course the method one first learns can be more to do with circumstance than informed choice, as can the the school one first gets involved with. Maybe it was just the nearest Buddhist group, maybe a friend suggested it, maybe it was just an initial impression.
I am always rather puzzled by people who aren't interested in learning about other schools and practices, it seems a little narrow-minded to me. IMO that is partly what forums like this are for.
Ultimately, there is only one goal of meditation, and that is, to let the self go. Since every intentional actions requires holding and using the self, the only way goes through relaxation. If your meditation is rigid and uncomfortable, you are doing it wrong. People often divide their experience into mind and body, and then forget about the body entirely during meditation. They stress the body to create a platform for minds play, not seeing how those two depends on each other. Because of that, almost every practitioner that I know, is doing his practice vainly.
@SpinyNorman I'm thinking of the practical side. If there are 20 teachers you are curious of and each has 20 one hour long videos about their method of meditation and other core teachings then you have to watch 400 hours of videos on meditation for methods that differ. Also if you have questions (about the teachers meditation instructions and yourself) you have to have a relationship to 20 teachers which is not easy to fall into.
If you're just looking at a book and doing 10 hours of meditation as testing something out then it is quite easy relatively.
To add to the practical side in my experience with my teacher I have known of her for 10 years. I've meditated for 10 years with her instructions. But I am not at the point where I would say I have learned everything she teaches. I still am at the start of the second course from her I have taken. I am still reading and studying materials she has written. Since I have other responsibilities and interests and I get physically tired from medicines I have limited time and so I am not going to seek those other 19 teachers because I don't even have time for my current teacher to see the material fully.
I am happy to hear in a nutshell what other people do meditating. Or read a book. But you can't say that would be a thorough look in my opinion.
@Barah said:
Ultimately, there is only one goal of meditation, and that is, to let the self go.
Ah ... you don't mean as in 'she has really let herself go' because of not wearing makeup or the latest hair colour ... because you're worth it ...
Only joshing.
Since every intentional actions requires holding and using the self, the only way goes through relaxation. If your meditation is rigid and uncomfortable, you are doing it wrong.
That is my experience too. The 'hard' aspect of meditation is the ... well what? The discipline of sitting, walking, laying, standing etc. Pah! The discipline of regular practice? Pah! x2 ...
The garbage passing through monkey-gibber mind ... ? ... well relax into that too. It's OK, it is worth it ...
People often divide their experience into mind and body, and then forget about the body entirely during meditation. They stress the body to create a platform for minds play, not seeing how those two depends on each other.
Very interdependent. Yes indeed. Once we can relax in mind-body ... then we can start ... meditating ... without the effort of 'I am doing something 'hard'' ...
Beginners at meditation? Very much so ... until [spoiler alert] we start to practice diligently ... Thanks Barah.
@how said:
I like one translation that sometimes finishes the Prajnaparamita scripture, which is....
"Going, going, always going on, always becoming Buddha", for the fluidity it infuses into any ideas that there is such a thing as a destination.
The usual translation is "Gone, gone, gone beyond, gone completely beyond..." which suggests not so much a destination as an escape.
@Jeffrey said: To add to the practical side in my experience with my teacher I have known of her for 10 years. I've meditated for 10 years with her instructions.
You can learn a meditation method quite quickly, so I don't understand your point really.
@ajhayes said:
When I sit, I have a very difficult time emptying my mind, even when I am not actively thinking of something, there is a song that is playing in my head. Is the goal to eliminate everything? Or is the music alright?
I have been meditating for about 4 years and I still have this problem. It really is a matter ter of focusing rather than emptying, I think. Focusing on the ground below you, the sounds around you, and just existing.
Interestingly enough, I just had a therapist tell me a few days ago that 10% of the population is unable to relax through meditation. I don't know how accurate is, but it definitely doesn't relax me very well. I do it still, though, just to feel a sense of connection and maybe that's what it's really about? Connecting with the world.
A noisy, talkative mind can be quieted over time. There could be other obstacles that come along such as sleepiness and laziness, but by the time it takes to quiet the mind, it's possible some of the other obstacles would have been reduced at least.
@SpinyNorman I was actually thinking earlier today and yesterday about methods or in contrast not having a method or finding what works at the time. My teacher does have a lot of suggestions but she teaches core concepts moreso than specific methods. She does have suggestions so for example she might say "and if you want some specific ideas of posture I talk about that later" but the heart of meditation for her is not a method and rather each person is running their own method.
I remember 10 years ago my first look at the booklet that comes that is an introduction to formless meditation and I read it and said "oh I already know all that".
In some sense it's bullshit to say it is formless and has no method. I mean how can you talk about meditation every day and have all kinds of written pages if there is nothing to talk about? But at the same time I think there is some truth to calling the meditation I do formless.
Also other teachers like Ajahn Brahm I forget exactly what he said but chapter 1 was about lettting go of things and focusing only on the breath. (I think those two are wrong memory but I can't find the Ajahn Brahm book of mine) So then at the end he said ok now that you can do that well you can go to chapter two. I found that humorous because chapter 1 was quite formidible and if I myself am honest I am not ready for chapter 2 strictly speaking though of course I can go onward to check out the rest of the book.
For my teacher the core concepts are: heart, confidence, heart wish, openness, clarity, sensitivity, and mandala principle. So those things are relevant to meditation rather than methods or techniques. In meditation the essence we are following or looking for is: wake, heart, present, open.
But yeah some people eyes open some people not. Some people following the breath is not a good suggestion. And some people cross legged is not a great thing. Counting.
But yeah I understand that you don't understand my point and that is amazing to me.
@IchLiebte said:
I have been meditating for about 4 years and I still have this problem. It really is a matter of focusing rather than emptying, I think. Focusing on the ground below you, the sounds around you, and just existing.
Hello
Gentle focus on specific areas, mantra, symbols or (quite often in Buddhism) breath is a way of moving the mind away from the ceaseless chatter. As is yoga nidra
I find the scanning of the physical points of tension quite relaxing and a simple way to start or finish my connection to relaxed physical sitting.
0
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@namarupa said:
A noisy, talkative mind can be quieted over time. There could be other obstacles that come along such as sleepiness and laziness, but by the time it takes to quiet the mind, it's possible some of the other obstacles would have been reduced at least.
Osho held that modern man had too much noise and energy in his mind to be able to meditate in the old way, which is why he invented Dynamic Meditation, a physical meditative approach which has as goal to move some of the mind energy down to the heart. If you can't get on with mindfulness or vipassana, then perhaps that is an option.
@IchLiebte said:
I have been meditating for about 4 years and I still have this problem. It really is a matter of focusing rather than emptying, I think. Focusing on the ground below you, the sounds around you, and just existing.
Hello
Gentle focus on specific areas, mantra, symbols or (quite often in Buddhism) breath is a way of moving the mind away from the ceaseless chatter. As is yoga nidra
I find the scanning of the physical points of tension quite relaxing and a simple way to start or finish my connection to relaxed physical sitting.
Yoga Nidra! I hadn't heard of that! That sounds really interesting, but definitely not for me; I have dissociative disorder and if I have trouble distinguishing reality from dream/illusion and start to panic if I calm down to the point of relaxation (same goes with breathing exercises). Weird for a Buddhist, I know. But clarity of mind is just a good of goal, I believe!
@IchLiebte said:
Yoga Nidra! I hadn't heard of that! That sounds really interesting, but definitely not for me; I have dissociative disorder and if I have trouble distinguishing reality from dream/illusion and start to panic if I calm down to the point of relaxation (same goes with breathing exercises). Weird for a Buddhist, I know. But clarity of mind is just a good of goal, I believe!
Fascinating.
There is I would suggest a moving 'sweet point' at which focus/attention can be relaxed and calmed without the arising of any panic but clearly that is part of your practice. Clarity of mind encompasses clarity of emotive and physical states including emotive/physical panic arisings ...
Comments
how come?
Sure, that's why I am not desperately searching.
You have to explain certain things in the common language. For Buddhists this may be a regular practice. Otherwise you will be stuck as an outsider, that is not skilful no matter the free flowing nature of being 'unstuck' ...
Hope that makes sense.
Not really. As I said most Buddhist practices aim to develop skillful mental qualities, whether it be calm or insight or metta or contentment, or the perfections in Mahayana, or whatever. I wonder if you are confusing the goal of practice with the attitude to practice?
Why do you do Buddhist practice?
Not what I have seen at all. In my experience people who get stuck generally give up practice. Practice can take many forms of course. It also depends on where people start from, and what they want or expect.
What is the practical difference? Do you mean random stuff v. deciding to think about something?
Truly fruitful practice is progressively dynamic. Of course, change can be achieved through repetition, but it is significantly slower. It can be used as an entry point, but if someone is not moving forward, he is probably doing something wrong. In most cases, this comes as a result of wrong assumptions and/or false goals.
Join the club.
Hmmm! I don't think I'm confusing them, but then again, the degree to which one can allow phenomena to arise and pass unmolested by our conditioned impulses, appears to be the same degree to which the goal and the attitude can look pretty indistinguishable from each other.
An adversarial perspective promoting a self verses others stance, needs to see differences to maintain it's tribal boundary's where as a more transcendent perspective has no such need.
And as to why do** I **practice???
Well at this point it's probably because I've really got nothing better to do?
Over the weekend, I found a quote in one of my notebooks about the potential of a beginners mind. I suddenly don't feel quite so bad about being and remaining a beginner at meditation.
“In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert’s there are few”
― Shunryu Suzuki
Sure!
Dogen's instructions for zazen come to mind.
Don't try to think.
Don't try not to think.
Just sitting with no deliberate thought is the important aspect of zazen.
The OP spoke of the difficulty of emptying his mind, even when he was not actively thinking of something.
Firstly.. the notion that the mind should be emptied could be queried and
secondly...to actively not think of something is very much the activity of thinking.
There are countless different ways to meditate. I would first offer the question of why he thought he should try to isolate the mind (empty it) from the continuous flow of data that is life?
Secondly, I would suggest that his difficulty is not about the flow of data but is really about his relationship to that data.
Thinking, here, neither needs to be embraced or rejected in meditation.
Natural thinking is a thought flow that isn't molested by our conditioned impulses.
Deliberate thinking is a thought flow that is molested by our conditioned
impulses.
My meditation is my attempt at allowing all sense gates and skandhas, a free and open space upon this stage called life. My practice is my attempt to not participate in any deification or obfuscation of one sense gate or skandha over any other.
,
Someone who has reached the 'destination' would be unlikely to trumpet that fact, I daresay.
@Dhammika
While I know of no destination to reach for beyond what this moment offers
and certainly shy away from folks needing to proclaim their spiritual arrivals but
wasn't the Buddha someone who trumpeted his destination far & wide.
That's true.
At times the tricks played by the professional confidence trickster AKA the ego can be very convincing...So user/buyer beware .....before buying into any thoughts that seem too good to be true
These are simply generalizations that certainly do not match the wide range of differing conditions which apply to a life of practice.
Because each moment offers a plethora of variable conditions to each practitioner, change of itself, is as unreliable a meter upon which to measure a practice as consistency can be.
Some states of practice require journeys through states of aridity with no end in sight, where ones practice appears neither fruitful or progressively dynamic and one's unfailing acceptance of that very lack of apparent change is what is actually called for.
There are also numerous examples of charismatic and progressively dynamic teachers who have managed to f-ck up royally who obviously present little evidence of their coresponding right assumptions and/or right goals.
I think if one wished to find markers to judge anyone's practice, I'd suggest the manifestations of compassion or tenderness or love or empathy or benevolence or sympathy or equinimity or wisdom to be a better bet.
Ah ha!
So it is not how enlightened, how many spiritual pushups or degree of mindfulness one achieves. I knew it!
This change of emphasis from 'it works for me' to 'it works for others' is the key. Wisdom for example is not 'I iz wizer' but 'this course of action/being is wiser'.
Could it be master plan? I think so. Many thanks @how.
Yes, that was not a detailed report. Of course those are generalizations.
It depends what kind of meditation one is doing. In samatha the mind gradually and naturally calms, it's not a deliberate repression of thoughts. What you are describing is more like vipassana-style meditation, where one observes and accepts whatever arises in the mind. In any case it's clear that there are different styles of meditation with different goals, and it's misleading to present only one method as authentic.
Sure, I can see with that approach there is a blurring of the goal and the attitude to practice. The attitude is the goal.
I think there is a time to take stock of one has developed compassion or other heart qualities. But that is actually quite far. That is the third turning of dharma in that if you think you have realized your nature and the nature of reality then you are deceived if you are not manifesting the Budhas qualities.
But that's actually quite far on the path. Dare I say at the last part?
What is expected here early in the path is we have an understanding of why we are doing whatever deliberate act that we are doing. And we can ask ourselves and be aware and check ourselves.
Not everyone subscribes to the "3 turnings of the wheel" idea, so it's not a common frame of reference. What we can do here is try to be clear about the different styles of meditation in different schools.
I would say three turnings are not universal. But they are common.
My point was that right now we can be aware of our motives, but that if we think we have Buddhism figured out then at that point comes the meaning of the third turning where if we think we have realized emptiness we may be wrong and looking for Buddha qualities is proof of the pudding.
It's not a bad idea to read others method of meditation but you can't do them all. At least not extensive or all with open mind and not just looking to say you tried it.
Come to think of it - All thinking is natural. The label "delibërate" doesn't make it any less natural. My "deliberate" response to this thread was the result of seeing the thread and then feeling the impulse to reply. There is nothing unnatural about this "deliberate" thought. All thinking is spontaneous simply because there isn't a thinker.
Perhaps not, but I think it's useful to have wider experience and understanding of different approaches to practice so that we can make an informed choice and find what works best for us. In my experience it isn't a case of one size fits all, and to some extent I think meditation is a personal journey of exploration, which means that experimentation is actually a positive thing.
Sometimes people just stick with the approach they were first taught, but IMO this can limit development and lead to attachment, sometimes even to sectarianism, eg: "What I was taught is the only proper way to meditate". And of course the method one first learns can be more to do with circumstance than informed choice, as can the the school one first gets involved with. Maybe it was just the nearest Buddhist group, maybe a friend suggested it, maybe it was just an initial impression.
I am always rather puzzled by people who aren't interested in learning about other schools and practices, it seems a little narrow-minded to me. IMO that is partly what forums like this are for.
Ultimately, there is only one goal of meditation, and that is, to let the self go. Since every intentional actions requires holding and using the self, the only way goes through relaxation. If your meditation is rigid and uncomfortable, you are doing it wrong. People often divide their experience into mind and body, and then forget about the body entirely during meditation. They stress the body to create a platform for minds play, not seeing how those two depends on each other. Because of that, almost every practitioner that I know, is doing his practice vainly.
I like one translation that sometimes finishes the Prajnaparamita scripture, which is....
"Going, going, always going on, always becoming Buddha", for the fluidity it infuses into any ideas that there is such a thing as a destination.
@SpinyNorman I'm thinking of the practical side. If there are 20 teachers you are curious of and each has 20 one hour long videos about their method of meditation and other core teachings then you have to watch 400 hours of videos on meditation for methods that differ. Also if you have questions (about the teachers meditation instructions and yourself) you have to have a relationship to 20 teachers which is not easy to fall into.
If you're just looking at a book and doing 10 hours of meditation as testing something out then it is quite easy relatively.
To add to the practical side in my experience with my teacher I have known of her for 10 years. I've meditated for 10 years with her instructions. But I am not at the point where I would say I have learned everything she teaches. I still am at the start of the second course from her I have taken. I am still reading and studying materials she has written. Since I have other responsibilities and interests and I get physically tired from medicines I have limited time and so I am not going to seek those other 19 teachers because I don't even have time for my current teacher to see the material fully.
I am happy to hear in a nutshell what other people do meditating. Or read a book. But you can't say that would be a thorough look in my opinion.
Ah ... you don't mean as in 'she has really let herself go' because of not wearing makeup or the latest hair colour ... because you're worth it ...
Only joshing.
That is my experience too. The 'hard' aspect of meditation is the ... well what? The discipline of sitting, walking, laying, standing etc. Pah! The discipline of regular practice? Pah! x2 ...
The garbage passing through monkey-gibber mind ... ? ... well relax into that too. It's OK, it is worth it ...
Very interdependent. Yes indeed. Once we can relax in mind-body ... then we can start ... meditating ... without the effort of 'I am doing something 'hard'' ...
Beginners at meditation? Very much so ... until [spoiler alert] we start to practice diligently ... Thanks Barah.
I likes it calm. I likes it slow. I likes it that there is no place to go.
I likes it rough. I likes it fast. I likes it that it doesn't last
( Annica that is)
The usual translation is "Gone, gone, gone beyond, gone completely beyond..." which suggests not so much a destination as an escape.
Ooeerr, missus!
I think that is much too pessimistic. I think most people understand that it's about calming the body as well as the mind.
You can learn a meditation method quite quickly, so I don't understand your point really.
I have been meditating for about 4 years and I still have this problem. It really is a matter ter of focusing rather than emptying, I think. Focusing on the ground below you, the sounds around you, and just existing.
Interestingly enough, I just had a therapist tell me a few days ago that 10% of the population is unable to relax through meditation. I don't know how accurate is, but it definitely doesn't relax me very well. I do it still, though, just to feel a sense of connection and maybe that's what it's really about? Connecting with the world.
A noisy, talkative mind can be quieted over time. There could be other obstacles that come along such as sleepiness and laziness, but by the time it takes to quiet the mind, it's possible some of the other obstacles would have been reduced at least.
@SpinyNorman I was actually thinking earlier today and yesterday about methods or in contrast not having a method or finding what works at the time. My teacher does have a lot of suggestions but she teaches core concepts moreso than specific methods. She does have suggestions so for example she might say "and if you want some specific ideas of posture I talk about that later" but the heart of meditation for her is not a method and rather each person is running their own method.
I remember 10 years ago my first look at the booklet that comes that is an introduction to formless meditation and I read it and said "oh I already know all that".
In some sense it's bullshit to say it is formless and has no method. I mean how can you talk about meditation every day and have all kinds of written pages if there is nothing to talk about? But at the same time I think there is some truth to calling the meditation I do formless.
Also other teachers like Ajahn Brahm I forget exactly what he said but chapter 1 was about lettting go of things and focusing only on the breath. (I think those two are wrong memory but I can't find the Ajahn Brahm book of mine) So then at the end he said ok now that you can do that well you can go to chapter two. I found that humorous because chapter 1 was quite formidible and if I myself am honest I am not ready for chapter 2 strictly speaking though of course I can go onward to check out the rest of the book.
For my teacher the core concepts are: heart, confidence, heart wish, openness, clarity, sensitivity, and mandala principle. So those things are relevant to meditation rather than methods or techniques. In meditation the essence we are following or looking for is: wake, heart, present, open.
But yeah some people eyes open some people not. Some people following the breath is not a good suggestion. And some people cross legged is not a great thing. Counting.
But yeah I understand that you don't understand my point and that is amazing to me.
Hello
Gentle focus on specific areas, mantra, symbols or (quite often in Buddhism) breath is a way of moving the mind away from the ceaseless chatter. As is yoga nidra
I find the scanning of the physical points of tension quite relaxing and a simple way to start or finish my connection to relaxed physical sitting.
Osho held that modern man had too much noise and energy in his mind to be able to meditate in the old way, which is why he invented Dynamic Meditation, a physical meditative approach which has as goal to move some of the mind energy down to the heart. If you can't get on with mindfulness or vipassana, then perhaps that is an option.
Yoga Nidra! I hadn't heard of that! That sounds really interesting, but definitely not for me; I have dissociative disorder and if I have trouble distinguishing reality from dream/illusion and start to panic if I calm down to the point of relaxation (same goes with breathing exercises). Weird for a Buddhist, I know.
But clarity of mind is just a good of goal, I believe!
Fascinating.
There is I would suggest a moving 'sweet point' at which focus/attention can be relaxed and calmed without the arising of any panic but clearly that is part of your practice. Clarity of mind encompasses clarity of emotive and physical states including emotive/physical panic arisings ...