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Is New Buddhism About Ignoring Precepts?

124

Comments

  • patbbpatbb Veteran
    edited January 2012
    just for the sake of argument:
    If tonight I break my commitment to myself by sitting in my home, alone, and have a glass of rum and coke...it affects no one except myself and sets me back on my path.
    if you do something that set yourself back on your path, don't you think that you affect others?

    perhaps the person who have the setback would have avoided many fights with the family if he had continued his progress instead, freeing himself of his anger etc...

    and ultimately;

    let say you did not have all of those set backs.
    people may come to you as you are a source of inspiration and you would then be able to help them.
    let say you did have the set backs, people not coming to you and therefore perhaps miss their one chance to be guided in the right direction.

    Now repeat the process.
    These people therefore not inspire anyone to liberate themselves etc...

    in the end maybe thousands of people not being free (and not following any precepts therefore perhaps not caring about killing sentient beings, so perhaps thousands of animal lives...) as a indirect result of our decision that supposedly only affected ourself.
  • IktomiIktomi
    all these things have different results and impacts....
    Lay practitioner and monastic alike. :)
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited January 2012
    just for the sake of argument:
    If tonight I break my commitment to myself by sitting in my home, alone, and have a glass of rum and coke...it affects no one except myself and sets me back on my path.
    if you do something that set yourself back on your path, don't you think that you affect others?

    let say you did not have all of those set backs.
    people may come to you as you are a source of inspiration and you would then be able to help them.
    let say you did have the set backs, people not coming to you and therefore perhaps miss their one chance to be guided in the right direction.

    Now repeat the process.
    These people therefore not inspire anyone to liberate themselves etc...

    in the end maybe thousands of people not being free (and not following any precepts therefore perhaps not caring about killing sentient beings, so perhaps thousands of animal lives...) as a indirect result of our decision that supposedly only affected ourself.
    Pat, I can see your point. You're not just trying to win an argument.

    I do think, however, that you're taking my example too far. I said "a drink". If I take "a drink" tonight, alone, I have broken my commitment to fulfilling the Precept(s). When I was a Principal I was a leader, and that one drink wouldn't have affected my job performance the next day or beyond.

    I agree, that if I build on that one drink -- like my father did -- it would have affected my performance over time, and could have led to all that you mentioned...not that I was that influential.

    So I agree with your general premise, but I do see it a matter of degrees.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    ....your reasoning suggests it is harder for lay practitioners to uphold their vows because they don't have the added social incentives to abide by them.
    It is much harder, because while a monk has a completely supportive community, and a day-to-day discipline and routine which maintains his practice, a lay practitioner does not enjoy the same things, and is therefore far more susceptible to wandering....

  • patbbpatbb Veteran

    So I agree with your general premise, but I do see it a matter of degrees.
    yes of course, i was just having fun with the idea :)
  • IktomiIktomi
    ....your reasoning suggests it is harder for lay practitioners to uphold their vows because they don't have the added social incentives to abide by them.
    It is much harder, because while a monk has a completely supportive community, and a day-to-day discipline and routine which maintains his practice, a lay practitioner does not enjoy the same things, and is therefore far more susceptible to wandering....

    If anyone feels that way the obvious solution is to not make vows that can't be kept.
  • BrianBrian Detroit, MI Moderator
    Just to clarify: This site is not about any "New Buddhism", as @lincoln pointed out.

    I started this site for people, specifically Westerners, who have zero experience with Buddhism. I'm talking utter ignorance like my dear, sweet departed grandmother who thought Buddhists were orange-robed Christians—her worldview literally couldn't comprehend a non-Christian existence.

    Many of us are raised in cultures that completely ignore Buddhism; at most it's a footnote in the local bookstore, a "religion for Asians", or a special on evening television. In Western pop culture, it's a religion for weirdo celebrities, and most middle Americans would be hard pressed to tell you the difference between Buddhism, Hare Krishna, Hinduism, and Kung Fu movies.

    This site was founded on the idea that Westerners who come from these types of backgrounds need a safe place where there are no stupid questions. Do Buddhist celebrate Christmas? Was Buddha a real person? Is the fat Buddha in Chinese restaurants a God that Chinese people worship? How can I be happy?

    Anything else that this site has become is a direct result of the people who choose this as their online home. We have monks, laypeople, born again Christians, Muslims, and people from every internet-connected nation on Earth visiting here. It's going to be wild and diverse and crazy; that's what we love about it.

    There is no "What is this site?". It is a place where @Lincoln, @Jason, @Federica, @Mountains, @Cloud, @ShiftPlusOne, and myself will keep things nice so that everyone can talk about Buddhism at any level, freely, and without fear of being ripped a new asshole for saying something someone else disagrees with or thinks is stupid. Nothing more, nothing less.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    @Brian: Thank you for posting that. Very well written. And I remember at some point early on I did look for a "What is this site". I like that you see it as a "home" for people!
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2012
    ....your reasoning suggests it is harder for lay practitioners to uphold their vows because they don't have the added social incentives to abide by them.
    It is much harder, because while a monk has a completely supportive community, and a day-to-day discipline and routine which maintains his practice, a lay practitioner does not enjoy the same things, and is therefore far more susceptible to wandering....

    If anyone feels that way the obvious solution is to not make vows that can't be kept.
    That's one way to look at it. As for myself, I think taking the precepts knowing that I'm probably going to break one on occasion is better than not taking them at all. As I like to say, Buddhism isn't called a gradual path for nothing. Some of us are just harder to train than others. That may mean that my practice won't advance as far or as quickly as others, but I certainly don't think it means I shouldn't try at all. The me who occasionally breaks the fifth precept is a lot better (and happier) than the me who didn't, the me who was only in search of pleasure and annihilation.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited January 2012

    If anyone feels that way the obvious solution is to not make vows that can't be kept.
    That thinking is too black and white IMO. Of course nearly everyone who takes precepts has the intention of keeping them when they are taking them. However, because this is a practice, which requires practice, ordinary human beings don't hit home runs every time at the plate. Sometimes they strike out, but they don't intend to strike out.

  • jlljll Veteran
    A vow goes " I swear I will ...."
    precepts are not like that.
    You undertake these precepts because you know its harmful
    to yourself if you break them. Karma, remember?
    That does not mean that nobody breaks the precepts.
    Even monks break their rules.
    What follows is confession, acknowledgement and forgiveness.
    Of course, some major rules when broken, the monk has to disrobe.
    Yall seem to have missed the entire point of ethical conduct and making religious vows. Failure to act morally does not only affect yourself.
    Acting morally will also impact negatively on others.
    Always, somewhere, someone, will suffer as a result of your decision to 'act morally'.
    bit of a dilemma, isn't it, if you think on it completely?

    "He who deliberates fully before taking each step will spend his entire life on one leg".

    'Damned' if you do, 'damned' if you don't........... ;)

    Simply don't make any vows you can't keep. That's my suggestion.
  • IktomiIktomi
    ....your reasoning suggests it is harder for lay practitioners to uphold their vows because they don't have the added social incentives to abide by them.
    It is much harder, because while a monk has a completely supportive community, and a day-to-day discipline and routine which maintains his practice, a lay practitioner does not enjoy the same things, and is therefore far more susceptible to wandering....

    If anyone feels that way the obvious solution is to not make vows that can't be kept.
    That's one way to look at it. As for myself, I think taking the precepts knowing that I'm probably going to break one on occasion is better than not taking them at all. As I like to say, Buddhism isn't called a gradual path for nothing. Some of us are just harder to train than others. That may mean that my practice won't advance as far or as quickly as others, but I certainly don't think it means I shouldn't try at all. The me who occasionally breaks the fifth precept is a lot better (and happier) than the me who didn't, the me who was only in search of pleasure and annihilation.
    Why can't you practice without making vows?
  • IktomiIktomi

    If anyone feels that way the obvious solution is to not make vows that can't be kept.
    That thinking is too black and white IMO. Of course nearly everyone who takes precepts has the intention of keeping them when they are taking them. However, because this is a practice, which requires practice, ordinary human beings don't hit home runs every time at the plate. Sometimes they strike out, but they don't intend to strike out.

    Seems to be a matter of how serious we are. Well... that's what the OP has pointed out.
  • driedleafdriedleaf Veteran
    I really don't understand the complexity of following or breaking precepts. If I kill an animal for food, I have broken the first precept. How does my breaking of the first precept, namely killing what I am cooking for dinner, affect others on a moral level? Besides turning some peoples stomach, this is why I mentioned having compassion because this is what people do everyday.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2012
    I really don't understand the complexity of following or breaking precepts. If I kill an animal for food, I have broken the first precept. How does my breaking of the first precept, namely killing what I am cooking for dinner, affect others on a moral level? Besides turning some peoples stomach, this is why I mentioned having compassion because this is what people do everyday.
    it causes the animal suffering and you're probably breaking some law or another. Coupled with 'turning some people's stomachs' is a violation of doing others no harm....
    In this day and age, nobody needs to kill anything, and if the animal belonged to someone else, it's theft.... your hypothesis meets mine.....

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited January 2012
    @Brian Good post, informative. I wonder: could something like that be posted permanently as part of an introduction to the site?

    Are Cloud and Shift still around?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    he's such a no-nonsense top-class dude!
    I've been here 7 years, and he's still my hero.....!
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    ....your reasoning suggests it is harder for lay practitioners to uphold their vows because they don't have the added social incentives to abide by them.
    It is much harder, because while a monk has a completely supportive community, and a day-to-day discipline and routine which maintains his practice, a lay practitioner does not enjoy the same things, and is therefore far more susceptible to wandering....

    If anyone feels that way the obvious solution is to not make vows that can't be kept.
    That's one way to look at it. As for myself, I think taking the precepts knowing that I'm probably going to break one on occasion is better than not taking them at all. As I like to say, Buddhism isn't called a gradual path for nothing. Some of us are just harder to train than others. That may mean that my practice won't advance as far or as quickly as others, but I certainly don't think it means I shouldn't try at all. The me who occasionally breaks the fifth precept is a lot better (and happier) than the me who didn't, the me who was only in search of pleasure and annihilation.
    Why can't you practice without making vows?
    Because, as I've already explained, I understand the precepts to be training rules that are useful in training one to be more skillful, and I find that using them as a basis and trying to observe them helps me do so more than not keeping them in mind at all. Also, from my experience at Thai monasteries, they're not seen as vows that one takes once and never breaks upon pain of eternal damnation. They're taken often, particularly after one has broken one in order to renew one's determination to keep them. For some, this is the extent of their practice, and they're never able to fully observe them longer than a week. Others get better and better at observing them until they hardly break them at all, and the rest of their practice begins to move much faster. I've personally found that my practice has improved as my ease in observing them has grown, and I'm comfortable with my progress for the most part even if others aren't.
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    Brian...Gratitude for that post. For that teaching.
    Fede...your posts lately have been right on point. I will be "liking" you alot.....:)
    Jason....Loved the MLKJR piece on your blog.
    The protest/strike/voice-up is upon us.
    May we support each other in the causes that benefit all of us.
  • possibilitiespossibilities PNW, WA State Veteran
    http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/budethics.htm

    "The five precepts are training rules, which, if one were to break any of them, one should be aware of the breech and examine how such a breech may be avoided in the future. The resultant of an action (often referred to as Karma) depends on the intention more than the action itself. It entails less feelings of guilt than its Judeo-Christian counterpart. Buddhism places a great emphasis on 'mind' and it is mental anguish such as remorse, anxiety, guilt etc. which is to be avoided in order to cultivate a calm and peaceful mind."

    This sounds so much better than the unyielding orthodox approach some people here seem to follow.

    Newcomer or not, IMO the OP is just as responsible for creating a good or bad climate for discussion here as those he is criticizing.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    @Iktomi, if it is only rationalizing then you must show us WHY the precepts should be handled by all people in the same way. If a precept isn't followed then it isn't followed. You are concocting an additional stigma onto that not following. The pali word is sankara I believe, concocting.

    If someone does not follow the precepts then they do not follow the precepts. We need not embellish on that that they are not buddhists.

    Can you link me where buddha said not following a precept makes you not a buddhist? For a layperson.
    Jeffery, Are you saying that there are different ways to handle stealing, lying, killing, etc?

    When one takes refuge in the Buddha one is saying that they are following the Buddha, and this includes the precepts. I am going to assume from your answer that you have not taken refuge. I remember once telling my teacher about a group of Buddhists who are breaking the precepts and are harsh towards others, and he said, They are not true Buddhists," but this doesn't mean that a Buddhist doesn't break a precept; it means that the Buddhists I was referring to didn't think the precepts were necessary.

    http://www.world-faiths.com/Buddhism/buddhism.htm a simple lesson
    Trouserman, I was thinking of the case in the thread with the teacher and student having sex. In my opinion that is sex but it isn't sexual misconduct. From what you and @zen_world have said in the forum I believe that you did consider the teacher to sexually misbehave.


    I wonder what grounds your teacher said that a group is not buddhist. Did buddha say that a layperson who breaks a precept is not buddhist? Like a said if you break a precept you break a precept. Any additional stigma added is concoction or sankara. Buddha did say to watch who you spend time with and are around. But that is a different story than saying someone is not a buddhist which is not true in my opinion and has no precedent in scripture or living traditions. Of course all (due) respects to your teacher and I am not here to contradict him.
  • IktomiIktomi
    Why can't you practice without making vows?
    Because, as I've already explained, I understand the precepts to be training rules that are useful in training one to be more skillful, and I find that using them as a basis and trying to observe them helps me do so more than not keeping them in mind at all. Also, from my experience at Thai monasteries, they're not seen as vows that one takes once and never breaks upon pain of eternal damnation. They're taken often, particularly after one has broken one in order to renew one's determination to keep them. For some, this is the extent of their practice, and they're never able to fully observe them longer than a week. Others get better and better at observing them until they hardly break them at all, and the rest of their practice begins to move much faster. I've personally found that my practice has improved as my ease in observing them has grown, and I'm comfortable with my progress for the most part even if others aren't.
    The question was why can't you practice without making vows. Are you required to make vows in order to practice with the Thai monasteries that you mention?
  • thetrousermanthetrouserman
    Yall seem to have missed the entire point of ethical conduct and making religious vows. Failure to act morally does not only affect yourself.
    Acting morally will also impact negatively on others.
    Always, somewhere, someone, will suffer as a result of your decision to 'act morally'.
    bit of a dilemma, isn't it, if you think on it completely?

    "He who deliberates fully before taking each step will spend his entire life on one leg".

    'Damned' if you do, 'damned' if you don't........... ;)

    What?

    So if I don't steal I am impacting someone negativity? if I don't kill?

    This thread reminds me of what a teacher once told me. Any religion in its beginnings degenerates shortly thereafter, as do threads. SMILE.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    But you see, it was very wrong for me to point the finger at Jeffrey, and I don't feel that you should have asked me to point fingers. Jeffrey I am sorry for this, and had I thought I would not have posted it. I am sure you are a very fine person.
    Don't worry trouserman. It is a misunderstanding. Precepts are interpreted differently in different sanghas. It is a big world trouserman. For example you and zen_world feel that sexual behaviour between a non-monastic teacher and a student is sexual misconduct. I wouldn't agree. My lama teaches her students that it is important to keep your vows if you make them, but that there is no pressure to take vows if you don't want to. For example, student usually has wine with dinner and a night cap. It's not hurting anyone.. so they don't have to vow the fifth precept. Make sense?

    Regarding myself I was a drinker for awhile but interestingly I was a vegetarian at that time. Now I eat meat but I have given up drinking. From that standpoint I can neither criticize a hunter or drunk. Without being a hypocrit at least.
  • IktomiIktomi
    Yall seem to have missed the entire point of ethical conduct and making religious vows. Failure to act morally does not only affect yourself.
    Acting morally will also impact negatively on others.
    Always, somewhere, someone, will suffer as a result of your decision to 'act morally'.
    bit of a dilemma, isn't it, if you think on it completely?

    "He who deliberates fully before taking each step will spend his entire life on one leg".

    'Damned' if you do, 'damned' if you don't........... ;)

    What?

    So if I don't steal I am impacting someone negativity? if I don't kill?

    This thread reminds me of what a teacher once told me. Any religion in its beginnings degenerates shortly thereafter, as do threads. SMILE.
    She eludes to the all-purpose "imponderables" teaching. Purposefully derailing the discussion or confusing the relative with the ultimate, take your pick.
  • IktomiIktomi
    Alludes to..
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2012

    So if I don't steal I am impacting someone negativity? if I don't kill?

    No, I don't allude to the imponderables teaching at all....

    Right, let me elaborate....
    We take and keep the vows as a matter of course.
    They are precepts we abide by, and while no situation exists, that places us in having to make that choice, then keeping them is done with the same ease as getting up and pouring ourselves a glass of water.
    However, if we are placed in a direct situation where we have to make a mindful choice, and we have to decide whether doing - or not doing - something will be skilful, mindful and appropriate - then the reasons for having to make that choice, and the ramifications, are going to impact on someone else.

    what situation might you find yourself in, where you may be faced with the choice of stealing something - or not?
    what situation might you find yourself in, where you may be faced with the choice of killing something - or not?
    This thread reminds me of what a teacher once told me. Any religion in its beginnings degenerates shortly thereafter, as do threads. SMILE.
    indeed.
    I am. :)

  • IktomiIktomi
    This thread reminds me of what a teacher once told me. Any religion in its beginnings degenerates shortly thereafter, as do threads. SMILE.
    Rather, a religion is a system of meaning that, not unlike a shark, must continually move forward to stay alive. :)
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2012
    Why can't you practice without making vows?
    Because, as I've already explained, I understand the precepts to be training rules that are useful in training one to be more skillful, and I find that using them as a basis and trying to observe them helps me do so more than not keeping them in mind at all. Also, from my experience at Thai monasteries, they're not seen as vows that one takes once and never breaks upon pain of eternal damnation. They're taken often, particularly after one has broken one in order to renew one's determination to keep them. For some, this is the extent of their practice, and they're never able to fully observe them longer than a week. Others get better and better at observing them until they hardly break them at all, and the rest of their practice begins to move much faster. I've personally found that my practice has improved as my ease in observing them has grown, and I'm comfortable with my progress for the most part even if others aren't.
    The question was why can't you practice without making vows. Are you required to make vows in order to practice with the Thai monasteries that you mention?
    No. However, most Thai monasteries expect you to at least take the eight precepts when staying for an extended period and then give you the five before leaving, and I've spent extended periods of time at a couple of Thai monasteries. As for the rest, it seems to me that you don't see the precepts the same way as I do, and that's fine by me. The way I see it, the practice itself is an individual undertaking, and I've already explained why I choose to observe them, even if it's sometimes imperfectly. I certainly don't take them with the intention of breaking them, however, if that's what you're thinking. Sometime I just give in to the desire to have a good time with my friends when I occasionally have a drink (especially when they have a particularly good bottle of bourbon).
  • IktomiIktomi
    Jason,

    I was only asking why you can't practice without making vows. Maybe I misread something you wrote and in fact you are not saying that you can't practice without making vows. The Thai monasteries that you mentioned don't even require it for practicing with them.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran

    If anyone feels that way the obvious solution is to not make vows that can't be kept.
    That thinking is too black and white IMO. Of course nearly everyone who takes precepts has the intention of keeping them when they are taking them. However, because this is a practice, which requires practice, ordinary human beings don't hit home runs every time at the plate. Sometimes they strike out, but they don't intend to strike out.

    Seems to be a matter of how serious we are. Well... that's what the OP has pointed out.

    More like "Seems to be a matter of how serious we intend to be" :)

  • IktomiIktomi

    If anyone feels that way the obvious solution is to not make vows that can't be kept.
    That thinking is too black and white IMO. Of course nearly everyone who takes precepts has the intention of keeping them when they are taking them. However, because this is a practice, which requires practice, ordinary human beings don't hit home runs every time at the plate. Sometimes they strike out, but they don't intend to strike out.

    Seems to be a matter of how serious we are. Well... that's what the OP has pointed out.

    More like "Seems to be a matter of how serious we intend to be" :)

    The OP points out how serious we appear to be.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited January 2012

    If anyone feels that way the obvious solution is to not make vows that can't be kept.
    That thinking is too black and white IMO. Of course nearly everyone who takes precepts has the intention of keeping them when they are taking them. However, because this is a practice, which requires practice, ordinary human beings don't hit home runs every time at the plate. Sometimes they strike out, but they don't intend to strike out.

    Seems to be a matter of how serious we are. Well... that's what the OP has pointed out.

    More like "Seems to be a matter of how serious we intend to be" :)

    The OP points out how serious we appear to be.
    "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."

    — AN 6.63

    How we appear is not kamma, intention is kamma. :) A person who can keep the precepts 100% all the time, does not even need them to begin with. In that situation, they become completely useless. They are practice tools. If you have already perfected the practice, there is no more use for any tools. They are most useful for people who have trouble keeping them.


  • IktomiIktomi
    The OP did not comment about our intentions or kamma...
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    I've read this in many places, that it's better to take just one precept, and keep it, than to take several that you know you'll have trouble keeping.

    Though a case could be made for setting a goal for yourself, and taking a challenge, and thereby developing a discipline. But I think if one is too casual with keeping the precepts, they become kind of meaningless, don't they? There's no opportunity there for developing a discipline, if you say, "oops! oh well, it's ok. Better luck next time". idk :-/
    My lama teaches her students that it is important to keep your vows if you make them, but that there is no pressure to take vows if you don't want to.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    The OP did not comment about our intentions or kamma...
    So? This discussion is about precepts. :)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    i think we've moved on so far from the OP, that intention, kamma and outcome seem to be the next logical procedural step....
  • IktomiIktomi
    Obviously our actions (apparent actions) indicate what our intentions and kamma is like. If we are serious practitioners, lay or monastic, we might appear to uphold our vows. If we are not that serious we might not appear to uphold them so much...
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Obviously our actions (apparent actions) indicate what our intentions and kamma is like. If we are serious practitioners, lay or monastic, we might appear to uphold our vows. If we are not that serious we might not appear to uphold them so much...
    Even the most serious practitioners have broken precepts before. That is why it's called practice.

  • IktomiIktomi
    Yes there is serious practice and not so serious practice. Why is that so hard to accept???
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran


    That's one way to look at it. As for myself, I think taking the precepts knowing that I'm probably going to break one on occasion is better than not taking them at all. As I like to say, Buddhism isn't called a gradual path for nothing. Some of us are just harder to train than others. That may mean that my practice won't advance as far or as quickly as others, but I certainly don't think it means I shouldn't try at all. The me who occasionally breaks the fifth precept is a lot better (and happier) than the me who didn't, the me who was only in search of pleasure and annihilation.

    Excellent post. None of us can be perfect, but all of us can improve and be better.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    I believe you also don't get any brownie points for following the precepts. It's a personal issue how you practice the dharma.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited January 2012
    Yes there is serious practice and not so serious practice. Why is that so hard to accept???
    Why is it so hard to accept that people are not perfect? If they were perfect, they would not even need to be practicing...

  • ajnast4rajnast4r Veteran
    agreed, excellent post by @jason

    i think its also important to understand the reasons the precepts exist. they are not about judgement, right, wrong, or being a good or bad Buddhist in any way. they each have unique functions in helping us make progress on the path. unless you are an Ajahn I don't think you can really look at a fellow Buddhist and pass judgement on them based on there inability to adhere to the precepts... i mean really, is ANYONE here adhering to the 5 precepts 100%? probably not... it takes MAJOR commitment and progress in practice.

    my understanding of the precepts is as follows:

    1-3, harming, stealing, lying. these 3 are intrinsic functionings of the universe, much like gravity or the magnetic and nuclear forces... they are universal laws, inherent and intrinsic... when intention to harm meet action unskillful karma is made. these 3 are simply ways to avoid the worst possible type of unskillful karma you can make for yourself.

    4, sexual misconduct... because sexual desire is so incredibly powerful, it can cause us to disregard the other precepts in order to get sex... it also creates unbelievably strong attachment in the mind.

    5, intoxicants. simply because intoxication clouds the mind and retards mindfulness and concentration.
  • IktomiIktomi
    Yes there is serious practice and not so serious practice. Why is that so hard to accept???
    Why is it so hard to accept that people are not perfect? If they were perfect, they would not even need to be practicing...

    The OP didn't say anything about perfection. It's mentions being serious/not-so-serious or "playing." If we make regular vows to abstain from intoxicants and then regularly imbibe this suggests that we are not that serious. No heavy judgement! but let's face the facts.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited January 2012
    Yes there is serious practice and not so serious practice. Why is that so hard to accept???
    Why is it so hard to accept that people are not perfect? If they were perfect, they would not even need to be practicing...

    The OP didn't say anything about perfection. It's mentions being serious/not-so-serious or "playing." If we make regular vows to abstain from intoxicants and then regularly imbibe this suggests that we are not that serious. No heavy judgement! but let's face the facts.
    Lets face the facts that everyone has broken precepts before. And in no way does that mean that they shouldn't have taken them. I'm not talking about the OPs comments, I'm talking about your comments. :)

  • IktomiIktomi
    Lets face the facts that everyone has broken precepts before. And in no way does that mean that they shouldn't have taken them. I'm not talking about the OPs comments, I'm talking about your comments. :)
    Where did I comment that someone hasn't broken the precepts before, or that having broken precepts, that they shouldn't have been taken to begin with?

    I'm saying that it may not be essential to make vows in order to practice Buddhism.

    I'm saying there is no essential difference between a lay practitioner and a monastic in terms of their being responsible or not.

    I'm saying that our apparent actions can be indicative of how serious we are in practicing Buddhism, and in this way I agree with the OP. Indeed, the fact that we are not monastics and indulge in this online debate may be somewhat indicative of our seriousness.

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Lets try to tabulate this ok?

    What do we agree on:

    1) it is a lay practitioners choice whether to take precepts

    2) if a lay person does not take precepts they are not serious

    3) it is 'better' to be serious - you get to advance three squares

    4) collect 200 dollars for passing go
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited January 2012
    Lets face the facts that everyone has broken precepts before. And in no way does that mean that they shouldn't have taken them. I'm not talking about the OPs comments, I'm talking about your comments. :)
    Where did I comment that someone hasn't broken the precepts before, or that having broken precepts, that they shouldn't have been taken to begin with?

    I'm saying that it may not be essential to make vows in order to practice Buddhism.

    I'm saying there is no essential difference between a lay practitioner and a monastic in terms of their being responsible or not.

    I'm saying that our apparent actions can be indicative of how serious we are in practicing Buddhism, and in this way I agree with the OP. Indeed, the fact that we are not monastics and indulge in this online debate may be somewhat indicative of our seriousness.

    You said in response to federica that "If anyone feels that way the obvious solution is to not make vows that can't be kept. "

    No, the obvious solution is to take the precepts and try to keep them, because that is precisely what they are for. :) A person that can always keep the precepts, does not even need to take them to begin with. For a person that can always keep them, they are useless and unnecessary.

  • IktomiIktomi
    Lets try to tabulate this ok?

    What do we agree on:

    1) it is a lay practitioners choice whether to take precepts
    So far so good. :) And after all, it's the practitioner who will have live up to them, or not.
    2) if a lay person does not take precepts they are not serious
    Oops. :( I just wrote that it may not be essential to make vows in order to practice Buddhism. I'll now add that it may not be essential to make vows in order to practice Buddhism seriously.
    3) it is 'better' to be serious
    I would think so. It seems difficult to me.
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