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Is New Buddhism About Ignoring Precepts?
Basically, from the short time I have been on this board I have noticed that many on this board are against observing the precepts. Is this what New Buddhism means?
When I was in a monastery we poured over the Monastic Code book, and we learned that if you desire to become enlightened then you must observe the precepts. Here one person was badgered when this person was upset that a teacher is having sex with a student. This doesn't feel like Buddhism to me, it feels like this is a board for people who are playing at Buddhism and a Hedonist form at that. Plus, no matter what I post, a certain poster comes on and contradicts me, is rather abrasive in her posts. Perhaps it would be better for me to go to a different forum, but I would think that people on a Buddhist board who come here would want to learn from real Buddhists. I know I would.
When I was in a monastery we poured over the Monastic Code book, and we learned that if you desire to become enlightened then you must observe the precepts. Here one person was badgered when this person was upset that a teacher is having sex with a student. This doesn't feel like Buddhism to me, it feels like this is a board for people who are playing at Buddhism and a Hedonist form at that. Plus, no matter what I post, a certain poster comes on and contradicts me, is rather abrasive in her posts. Perhaps it would be better for me to go to a different forum, but I would think that people on a Buddhist board who come here would want to learn from real Buddhists. I know I would.
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Comments
Like any forum, you will find a diverse range of opinion here.
Anyone who specifically 'rejects' the precepts would be advocating needless violence, lying, intoxication and sexual misconduct. I find it hard to see how this is compatable with the basic elements of Buddhism.
They (the precepts) are limited insomuch as they are negatively stated (don't do this, don't do that), whereas life is ultimately about what you DO do (ideally, living skilfully via compassionate action). However, skilfull action would not usually involve break the precepts. Rarely in stories (of Zen masters for examples) you hear about behaviour that seems to break precepts (a classic case, wacking their students with pieces of wood) but which turns out to be skilfull (because it was all they needed to push them the final step to enlightenment). I think perhaps some students of Buddhism use such stories, or sometimes the Kalama Sutra, as an excuse to do whatever the hell they want and label it Buddhism in the name of their "personal journey". This is nothing but a western, ego-centric, misguided approach that you are well advised to avoid.
Namaste
But I think the most important point is what caznamyaw said. This board is the first step for a lot of people discovering Buddhism. Like other forums, New Buddhist is open to all people and therefore has a lot of differing opinions. I think the mods do a great job at respecting everyone's opinion and it keeps a very welcoming and open atmosphere.
Though the more you adhere to form, the more you will have to shed later!!
If what you do works for you then great - hopefully you will be able to share that with others and in turn maybe pick things up from them also (whether buddhist or not)...
There is a section here for advanced ideas but when you know nothing what does 'advanced' really mean???
You could start your own forum...? I've checked for you... strictbuddhist.com is available!!
My own feeling is that those who find some usefulness in observing the precepts just observe them... and investigate what that means in their own lives. My own sense is that observing the precepts is largely a willingness to acknowledge that the precepts cannot be observed ... and observing them anyway.
one of laissez-faire ie anything goes.
I concur that the majority of the
comments here will bewilder a traditional
Buddhists. Welcome...
For my own practice I agree with the OP and I try to follow them as closely as I can. That's not always the case for everyone though.
Specifically to the post you refer to and sexual misconduct. Its not abstaining from sex, sex with a student crosses that line for me but I don't know that its a cut and dried view.
Many try to bring the ideals of Buddhism into their everyday lives instead of seeking renunciation for their practice.
Once one gets into the vageries of life all kinds of complexity arises. Should one follow the precepts against lying even if lying would protect someone else from direct physical harm?
Personally, I don't see how you could consider the precepts optional.
Those interested in justifying their own behavior are willing to invest far more time arguing the point than those attempting to correct them.
The precepts are pretty important as they help keep a clear mind and a decent basis for practicing buddhism. At the end of the day, everybody is human and everybody is different. Monks and nuns have been known to violate precepts, I am sure some of us here have broken precepts in the past and I am sure some of us will in the future.
As it was pointed out this forum has a wide range of people signed up, some do not even consider themselves buddhist which is fine. We cannot go around trying to change the world because that won't happen, but you will find many a decent person on this forum I am sure.
As far as different forums go, each one seems to have its own character, but I haven't found any others that seem as welcoming...although even here I've had to step away for a few days to a few weeks on occasion when some particular poster has stressed me out. In fact, I just got back from about a 3 week vacation when just that happened, although I've noticed that that poster has disappeared now. I was on a Thai Buddhist forum for a long time (since I lived in Thailand for a while) and there were some very aggressive posters that could make forum life hell.
When the OP said, "This doesn't feel like Buddhism to me, it feels like this is a board for people who are playing at Buddhism and a Hedonist form at that", I am reminded very much of my life in Thailand, where I lived for a couple of years. Here the "does one act like a real Buddhist" is played out in words. There, the "does one act like a real Buddhist" was played out in everyday life. I've known self-described devout Thai Buddhists who could spend an hour at temple meditating and then spend the evening at the local whore house or gambling den or be involved in the drug trade. In fact, almost every upcountry hotel in Thailand has a "massage parlor" (I use quotation marks to emphasize that we are talking far more than simply massage), and they often have a Buddha statue at their place of business.
Lincoln and his colleagues do a great job here making it all run rather smoothly. At one time or another, most of us get into little spats, and it's often over the kind of issues the OP mentioned. Lincoln and those who assist him keep it all together and occasionally close posts or banish people, but not to the extent I have seen in some other forums, and I think that's good.
Like the OP, I disagree strenuously to those who think that the Precepts are merely "suggestions". I believe in a somewhat strict interpretation of them. Although, I have to confess that when I read beyond the normal lay Precepts, I think some of those that monks have to follow are downright silly (at least in this day and time).
This goes along with my not agreeing with the seemingly commonly held view here about karma/kamma held here on the forum, that it is pretty much an "in your mind" sort of turmoil, rather than a formal punishment. Perhaps that's because I learned about Buddhism in Thailand, a nation where most Buddhists believe that a handicapped person is born that way because of karma from past lives.
The real benefit from this forum is that one gets to see how other people are thinking. And over time I've modified some of my views somewhat, but I've also managed to remain somewhat steadfast in what I see as the moral issues of Buddhism, particularly as outlined (for example) in the Precepts. I think the Precepts are pretty straight forward, and I don't agree at all with those who attempt to play semantical games with them in order to justify their own behavior (this is especially common with those who like to drink, smoke, and take drugs). But I've had to be careful here on this forum, too. There are times I have gotten so discouraged with some of the discussions that I have nearly turned away from Buddhism thinking that "this can't be right" and therefore "this can't be the path". And, after some time away I remind myself that even if it is not "THE path" it may be "a path" or part of "the path".
I stay because I still learn here. But I take it all with a grain of salt, and sometimes a boulder of halite.
Stick around. It's a good place to spend some time and energy, and don't let the others shout you down. Your viewpoint is as valid as any here.
I have been practicing buddhism for ten years. In three of those years I had a drinking problem, but I didn't let that stop me from practicing. I still meditated and studied. My lama's instruction was to go full force into what I did. If I was going to drink drink. Not drink not drink. But give myself no 'poor me' or one side knocking the other. I think I learned compassion in action. I started drinking every day instead of some days. I didn't binge drink anymore. Eventually I had a combination of clarity and compassion to just stop and I quit cold turkey.
Now I observe the 5th precept. But I am glad I did not let some snooty buddhist tell me that I was not a buddhist :nyah:
Gratitude for everyone being aware of our intentions here.
They must use discernment and personal evaluation, with skilful judgement, to decide just to what extent they personally should adhere to the precepts...one layperson's 'dead wrong' is another layperson's 'I'm generally ok with this'..... but the consequences to deliberate mental, verbal and physical actions are still to be endured.... I wouldn't call it badgering... and they certainly gave as good as they got. And it has to be said, I don't think they expected such a variety of returned opinions, so they were taken aback that not everyone agreed. And truth to say, the thread did begin to go round in circles after a while.... We have people from all walks of life joining us... not everybody here would always call themselves Buddhists... and we've had Hindus, Moslems and christians jpin us on occasions... so youmight think we're all playing at it, but i can assure you, we're quite a healthy cross-section.... Oh, maybe you caught her on a bad day.... and maybe that's her posting style. I wouldn't let it get to you...
Once you get to know everyone here, we're really all ok people. Human, given to mood swings and bad moments.... but humans nonetheless.... I've made some wonderful friends on here....and we provide a very comforting support system for one another. What to you is a 'real Buddhist'....? One who conforms to the Buddha's teachings, or one that conforms to what your idea of a 'real Buddhist' is....?
Don't give up on us so easily....Give us a chance...I'm sure we'll grow on you.....
We come from widely varying practices here and from no practice at all. None of us have the authority to teach, far as I know. So all we have are our opinions to share. A strict interpretation and observance of the precepts is a valid viewpoint and one I'd love to read in the mix. Even if I have a different answer than you. Especially if I don't agree. I might be wrong. I might change my mind. If I don't have a valid answer to someone's objection, then maybe I need to do some more thinking about it.
Precepts should be worked on by laymembers and monastics alike, and I will agree that some of the 200 to 300 (approx.) precepts for monks and nuns do go to extremes. One goes nuts trying to remember and keep them all, but basically they are based on loving kindness towards all, and I would hope that some here had been more kind to Zen_World and less apt to complain that we should not expect teachers to follow the precepts. After all a teacher should be a master, not just another lay member who is trying to do their best but are too tempted to comply. And so it bothers me that some here seemed to not only give Zen_World a bad time but to even consider that a teacher can do what they wish.
I hope a little more of the precepts would be taught on a forum. My goodness, I had to listen to them almost daily, but the monastery was filled with very loving people who did their best to not harm others, even if they could not learn how to fold a robe the right way, etc.
And Buddhism is of course, basically about not harming others.
If you gathered all "Christians" in one room and asked them to discuss a point of divinity, you would not find them all in agreement. Even though technically they follow the same religion, with the "thou shalts" and "thou shalt nots" you'll still get different interpretations. Cutting hair? Women in the pulpit? Same-sex marriage? Meat on Fridays? Yeesh. It gives me a headache just thinking about it - but it's a good thing, nonetheless.
Part of what makes this place so great is that people feel free to ask questions and think outside the box. If everyone agrees all the time, without exception, it's not much of a forum.
I wouldn't say people here ignore precepts. People may interpret them differently, or apply them differently, but because their path may differ slightly doesn't make them bad Buddhists - if they are Buddhists at all.
Let's remember that everyone posting on here is human, and we are all flawed. Every one of us can be stubborn, dig in our heels, and refuse to see another perspective.
For me, the day I stop questioning is the day I stop caring. (But that's just me.)
Precepts are crutches for people who cannot stand on their own two feet.
I resent a type of morality which focuses on details but is blind for the bigger picture.
Like for instance someone doesn’t eat the bonbon because of the alcohol in it, but he abuse his children.
How anyone expresses the discipline needed in his or her life is entirely a matter of choice. But without coming to terms with that choice and then exercising it, I think the result is more of the same ... more uncertainty, more doubt, more unsatisfactoriness, more suffering.
Buddhism is not for sissies and the plain fact is that most practicing Buddhists have been and perhaps continue to be sissies. But bit by bit, courageous step by courageous step, we overcome our talk-the-talk sissy-dom. Why? Because things work better that way ... precepts and all.
I don't see it that way...or at least how you're explaining it. To me, the basic Precepts are pretty cut and dried, in part because they are pretty simple. And I don't see why simply accepting that drugs and alcohol are wrong would mean that has to have a closed heart.
Second, I don't see why it has to be one or the other. Why can't one focus on the basics and still see a bigger picture?
Until then grasp hard.
Buddhism is for sissies and I am a sissy!
I seriously don’t think the precepts are capable of telling us what to do. Yes, in simple situations but even an amateur can think of dilemma’s which can’t be solved with the sutra-booklet.
Forget the precepts and find where they came from in the first place.
An open heart.
I'm not saying his opinion was wrong - but neither was that of those who disagreed with him.
And fundamentally, a lot of his angst came from the fact that he felt bad about his personal attitude and reaction, and didn't know what to do about it - to which he also received different opinions.
It's a discussion forum, not a bona-fide sangha with ordained monks and nuns...you're going to get the whole gamut from Alpha - to zen world.... I'm not going to rehash it. I would suggest we let it lie. The thread is closed. Why?
It's not a school or sangha, and everyone learns simply by asking certain questions, and getting so many differing opinions, they glean whatever is useful to them.
Actually, the topics which come up more than any other are the workings of kamma, re-birth, vegetarianism, drugs, and self-defence.... It's not a monastery here.... and everyone here, at one time or another, has shown extraordinary sentiments of loving kindness and compassion. As well as other traits. And as it happens, I can fold robes with the rest of them.
edit that - actually no, I probably can't. But I'm fastidious about my laundry, and I trust folding robes doesn't even come on the same page, let alone chapter, on what it takes to be a good person..... Then, may I ask... and you probably knew you were going to get an equally diverse variety or responses - what was your point in starting this thread, exactly? And it's a genuine question.
while Alan Watts sat drugging and drinking himself under the table, discussing his own philosophy, calling it Buddhism, and likewise planted those roots in the West, to the horror of the genuine Buddhist community down the block that had been teaching and keeping the precepts for 100 years.
Likewise, serious discussion of Buddhist thought and personal experience of the Dharma is sometimes offered here,
while discussion of self completely oblivious to any serious discussion of Buddhist thought, precepts, or personal experience of the Dharma is also often offered here.
In their own ways! :clap:
Buddhism as a single idea, was simply a categorisation by western theologists - in Asia there were a multiplicity of Buddhisms and these were practiced in different ways depending on whether you were a monk or a lay person. Contemporary academic scholarship is ripping to pieces traditional accounts of Buddhist history, uncovering its myths and silences and finding much (or all) of it to be unlikely to be directly the words of the Buddha and much including the entire Mahayana was simply created long after the Buddha died.
So if you are wondering about "TRUE" Buddhism you are either projecting your own view on what cannot, by any rational measure, be regarded as certain. But that does not mean their is nothing worth exploring.
There is something absolutely amazing going on and many westerners who have practiced in the traditional way, and like myself, gone to Asia and followed the old recipes (and if I recall were sometimes the most disciplined and diligent monks), of these a number have had, what they are completely convinced to be, the highest experiences. Their Asian teachers have acknowledged their insight and so have their peers. These highly committed western teachers after reflecting on their own experience and through dialogue have realised that the traditional view despite its great benefits has a great number of historical and cultural elaborations including a lot of culturally based ideas about sex, women, social engagement and work. These teachers have decided that there is no reason why the highest experience cannot be attained in lay life including within a loving sexual relationship. I don't believe they are copping out - although this is how anyone who leaves monastic life is regarded. Lay practice is not easy to do and how we do it is a work in progress, and so we can expect mistakes as we are all learning. It does have benefits, which does not negate the old ways, but New Buddhism simply fits more with western (Socratic and Abrahamic) mores which I believe reflect a different view of the same thing. These, at best, promote critical reflection and love - both of which I find have a different flavour in traditional Buddhism and fit more easily in the contemporary globalised secular context of life - it is not just a white western thing.
Buddhism is not about seeking experiences/"highest experiences" in any way,
Buddhism is about benefitting all sentient beings.
There is a difference - even between different monastic practices.
One thing in which all traditions agree is the four noble truths/eightfold path.
from there, there is a divergence in teachings, traditions, attitudes, points of view and practices.
Tibetan Buddhism has something to say about homosexuality, yet HH the DL knows that such views are really not up to current attitudes.... whereas Theravada has no such exclusion....
so really, it's hardly surprising that there is not only a difference of opinion about what lay followers and monastics practice.
And it's not a cop-out as far as many are concerned...
It seems that of late, we've all been a bit on edge and tetchy.
so let's just take care of each other, rather than play Mexican stand-offs....
Frankly, I would have thought it pertinent to try and understand the different facets of the conversations here, and whether or not you can learn a thing or two. If you stick around and base your opinions on experience, I would be much more inclined to take your impressions seriously.
Life on the internet typically takes you down avenues that you can avoid in real life. This may be a good way to test your patience and tolerance.
Don't jump to conclusions - I just don't see such behavior as being Buddhist, even though there might not be a precept that refers to that. ;-) IMO it's about trying to help and improve rather than to accuse.
Further, I was not aware of other members having "the same sense" on these issues: "...many on this board are against observing the precepts. Is this what New Buddhism means?"
Is that your opinion as well? Or are you speaking for others, which, personally, I think is a bad idea.
I think when it comes to the issue of observing the precepts in general, however, you'll find that most people here aren't against it so much as the general tendency is to take a more liberal attitude towards them, seeing them as training aids rather strict rules or commandments.
For my own part, I think the precepts are very important, and I encourage people to follow them to the best of their ability. That said, I'm certainly not perfect in my own practice, and I do occasionally break the fifth (but even then, I'm generally quite careful about how much I drink so as not the break the other four).
In the end, I think each individual is going to put varying degrees of effort into their practice. And while it may upset us when others aren't as strict as we may want them to be, I don't think it's fair to say they're simply "playing at Buddhism."
I find such notions not at all in keeping with Buddhism.
Forgiving the guy who put a gun to your head and blew your brains out because he was an ignorant being who knew no better is Buddhism.