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Enlightened or not - nothing changes and the earth still spins...
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Miserable truth ain't it . . . :wave:
What you 'think' you become! We create our realiity by what we 'think'!
If we became insane and saw demons and felt tortured then that is 'real' !
May not be real to you of course, but its still real to the one being tortured!
Our mind 'creates' reality! Its different for everyone!
Mind is the most powerful thing in the world and we only use 5 % of it!
So people who become enlightened or even insane, they are probably using 'more' of their mind, they may be able to see only what is 'more' reality than the likes of others (who are only using their 5% )
Miserable truth ain't it . . . :wave:
Nothing miserable about that no!
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=do-we-really-use-only-10
The enlightened from my limited experience, are diverse but have a 'shared certainty of awakening', they are not different but completely transformed. This is an interior territory, clearly visible but to us sleepers - invisible. Superficially, externally they may be miserable or joyous, bland or impassioned. The fakes emulate qualities but the genuine express the ineffable . . .
If you are a genuine seeker, the dead enlightened speak from dharma text. We owe them more than we imagine. One day we may join them. Strive earnestly. We can not end our quest until the quest ends us.
Crazy!
You say the mind is the most powerful thing in the world. It certainly is the largest thing in our experience as human beings: as the first two verses of the Dhammapada attest, there is no way out of the mind. It is the only means by which we have to know the world. Yet what is real and what is fiction? What is necessary and what is not? To what extent is misery inescapable? To what extent do we have to try to transcend misery?
Unlike what is suggested in and by the OP, I don't think we quite have the answer. People have been grappling with this question for millenia. Perhaps this is the point at which we simply shrug our shoulders and admit we don't know. There's wisdom in humility. Enlightened or not, this matter that comprises our mind-body will go on without us to make a story out of it.
I am guessing you are just saying that enlightenment isn't everything.
Enlightened or not is the difference between compassion, love & wisdom
and greed, hate & delusion. Everyone I know on a spiritual path places great worth on understanding the differences between one and the other.
Nothing changes denies entropy.
the earth still spins is just another question of time!
I guess the real question is what you think that nothing is?
http://www.amaravati.org/documents/the_way_it_is/03eta.html
have no doubt
After some fruition in practice, we move genteelly . . . m m m . . . that should be 'gently' but then again, perhaps with grace and the suggestion of the spell checker 'genteelly' . . .
how about 'naturally' . . . we move naturally from objects of meditation . . . breath, Yidams, metta, mantra, arisings, walking or 'doing sensations', listening to sound etc into . . .
greater abstraction.
So for example the space between thoughts, the stillness of 'just being', the clarity of awareness as 'awareness without object' . . . We can not move to abstraction until we have focus. That can take 10 minutes or years . . . usually years . . .
In this greater abstraction, there is greater spaciousness and therefore its inherent empty nature is much easier to comprehend.
Now the unraveling, the patience, the waiting without expectation, the 'just sitting'.
Until one day we are no longer sitting. Nothing sits?
Not quite.
Better to say nothing. After all, nothing bears thinking about Nothing . . .
:wave:
you are supposed to find the irony behind the
apparent meaning.....
One thing that occurs to me is that the students seemed to have expected a certain answer, which would imply that enlightenment has some essential, definable quality -- as opposed to pain, which also has some essential, definable quality. But all dharmas are empty, according to Mahayana.
So there might be a double-edged meaning to the monk's answer. On the one hand, he hasn't gained some quantifiable, fixed asset known as "enlightenment". On the other hand, having realized emptiness, he can see there is no such thing as misery either.
The Heart Sutra says "in emptiness...there is no suffering, no extinction of suffering, no path, no understanding, no attainment". The paradox in the sutra seems similar to the one raised in the Zen story, and the monk's answer demonstrates prajnaparamita.
Everything changes on the outside. That is samsara. The world of change which remains as it always was, always changing.
but
Nothing changes inside. This is nirvana. The mind that has realized nirvana has completely changed.
can go back to samsara
or
nirvana
by holding 'what you read in this post', thinking about it, gain the meaning and let go (one is getting a step towards Nirvana)
or
1.by holding 'what you read in this post' (clinging-upadana),
2. thinking about it (walking in samsara),
3.gain 'a' meaning (knowledge) getting wisdom through (insight meditation),
4.trying to write what you gain as knowledge (your view -may be Right -if you already have the Right View or Wrong if you have no Right View yet) want to say (walking in samsara),
5.writes something (walking in samsara),
6.waiting to see the response to your post (craving-thanha)
One Goes Back To Samsara
or
One Can Have The Gut To Let Go Of At (any stage of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,or 6)
Getting One Step Forward Towards Nirvana
You lose your life.
No way out.
Seeking leads to more seeking.
No way out.
More pointers
More delusion
More confusion.
No way out.
No way in either?
Here is as good as "anywhere"
Now is as good as any "time"
No place to start or finish
No place for activity or rest
"Inside" the realm it all seems so real
"Outside" the realm there is no such thing as beginning nor end
No point of entry nor point of origination
No cause of causes
"Outside" the realm without inside or outside.
No cause of causes
Buddha:"You may not necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment
No cause of causes
Suffering means to bear with. To let go is the anonym of it. When no grasping arises, becoming process would slow down. This is because everything in the dependent nature is nothing but energy. Energy is nothing but vibration. When the becoming process slows down, it means energy is vibrating at lower frequencies. When the becoming process ceases, energy literally stops vibrating. Energy just got frozen. Zero vibration means zero becoming. Zero becoming means absolute cessation of any changing processes. Thus the absolute stage of absence is achieved. Absence means a perfect state of balance. Therefore, absence is not about nothingness but instead it is about no-thing-ness. No thing means no becoming, no changing. No changing means no suffering. No suffering means no mind.
Mind is the forerunner of all states. No mind means a complete neutralization state of affairs, that is nibbana.
@buddhitakso
Beautiful and Insightful
Enlightenment must be the end of suffering because it is defined as a state free of distinctions. This would have to include the distinction between any two emotional states. This is why, unique among all phenomena, Nibbana is given no positive description in the Abhidharma. It will always be incorrect to give it one. It may be a pipedream as far was we know, but the definition is clear.
Or, this is how it seems to me. No dogmatism intended.
What context? What model? What abstract hierarchy?
Because from the Fundamental Vehicle there is a significant change. No more suffering, Arhatship, no rebirth.
Even entering the stream equates to only seven more life times.
Or Mahayana, which has the Bhumis and the goal of helping everyone in their enlightenment.
Etc.
There surely isn't just one voice for this.
Will only lead to more enquiry.
A Koan is designed to break language patterns
BUT throw the thorn away,
otherwise you will fall into the trap of words.
Tread carefully we are already knee-deep in the weeds.
Be aware of regressed tendency forming precognitive traps that offer pleasure and rewards for understanding and learning the words and their meanings. This deeply imbedded current assures only more craving and a fixation on learning more and more words to have more and more experiences with the belief that both experiences and words/understanding will lead to the ultimate experience, termed "Enlightenment"
A Zen Koan/Story points to the Absolute
Let go!
with....
the sky
Let go of the sky with the sky
A mouse eats cat food but the cat's bowl is broken.
What does this mean?
I just thought up this next one:
The first bowl of porridge was too hot.
The second bowl of porridge was too cold.
The last bowl of porridge was just right!
What the hell is she talking about?
What would you say? :wave:
:om:
And yet could it be that it is because it is not fully there yet, zenmyste?
To say that seeing thing as they really are might make us unhappy is to give a lie to the idea that Buddhism is the pursuit of happiness, and at best is a pessimistic speculation.
I might agree that a little enlightenment, like a little knowledge, may be a dangeorous thing. But a statement to the effect that that a fully realised person might regret their realisation would be wildly heterodox.
still there is doubt it seems
Hmmmm.............................
need more practice brother, hmmm.. (a sister?)
I will be making such a statement some time this year, whether or not people think such statements reveal its invalidity. Hopefully it will be an invalid statement anyway. After all the fantasy expectations range from omniscience to 'null by mouth'.
Maybe I could start as a stream entrant? However not sure whether to swim upstream, downstream, paddle on the spot, drown or cross over. Maybe the Buddhist stream enters us . . .
So many currents . . .
Give up the stink of Buddhism
If there were any scent of Buddhism here, it would be overpowered by the stench of self-serving BS.
You are the path.
The fragrance is no obstacle. :wave:
. . . gosh, ain't I daring today . . .
i know this thread is 4 years old
but it is worthwhile to see how far our attitude has been changed
or
to see whether we still bear the same attitude
after reading/listening/ practising Buddha's Teaching for another 4 years
The past is over. The future is not here. All we can go on, is the present.
I suggest you stick with that.