Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Enlightened or not - nothing changes and the earth still spins...
zenmyste
Veteran
What do you guys think about this zen story!
One day the Master announced that a young monk had reached an advanced state of enlightment. The news caused some stir. Some of the monks went to see the young monk. "We heard you are enlightened. Is that true?" they asked.
"It is," he replied.
"And how do you feel?"
"As miserable as ever," said the monk.
One day the Master announced that a young monk had reached an advanced state of enlightment. The news caused some stir. Some of the monks went to see the young monk. "We heard you are enlightened. Is that true?" they asked.
"It is," he replied.
"And how do you feel?"
"As miserable as ever," said the monk.
2
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
After enlightenment - fetch water, chop wood - and feel miserable.
Nothing to see here folks, move along.....
— AN 3.32
If one feels "miserable," I don't see how that would be the end of craving, dispassion, etc. To me, being "miserable" means that I would prefer to be in a different state than I am currently in. That's craving...
Maybe my understanding is a bit too simplistic?
In fact, for some people, enlightenment will make or break them! For some, it could be too much!
Enlightenment doesnt mean = rainbows in the sky..
It means to understand truth! (Whether we like it or not)
If you are lookibg for peace' , you'll only find that when death comes for you im afraid..
(At least my take on it all anyway)
It's the same earth before and after with the difference being the change of our minds on the path.
The thing is, you dont know what the buddha taught (or said)
all the teachings have been passed down and probably been 'chinese whispered' left right and centre...
If you're too fixed on what 'buddha' said all the time then you could miss your own 'awakening'
.........
Also, you say
This could be the obsticle that is preventing you from easing your suffering and becoming happier!
Why do you need to practice anything to be happy???
If you want to be happy , just be happy!
Whats so hard about it?
Theres no practice to be 'happy'
Its all mental (in our head)
To 'practice' something is more of a physical thing!
Happiness is a 'mental' thing = no practice needed, you just have to decide enough is enough, i am going to be happy from now on!
Done!
He wasn't just blowing smoke.
But if you consider this to be an obstacle - what is it therefore that you adhere to, in order to continue your practice....?
If not 'what the |Buddha said' - then what?
Suzuki said there were four types of horses. One knows the step to go in before the lash. One makes the right step even hearing the lash. One needs to be lashed to make the right step. And the fourth needs severe treatment with the lash.
Suzuki said Buddha has the most compassion for the fourth, thus they have a special practice.
No 2 lives are the same. I enjoy learning from everyone! (Thats why i ask alot of questions, some silly, some good, some interesting)
But to 'only' focus on what buddha says all the time (especially in our modern day life) may not always work for some people! (For me anyway)
You don't.
What makes you assume we do?
Come on now!!! Lets not play dumb! Its all most people talk about.
its all they relate to all the time... "Buddha said this, buddha said that.."
I never hear about their own experiences or life lessons that they have learnt themselves..
They are living in buddhas shadow way too much!
Like i always say, pls dont get me wrong, i love and respect buddhism, its helped me out alot, but i dont have to quote him every other thread
i like to quote myself sometimes and (even get feedback from you guys) who are alive right now , not some dead guy who lived 2500 years ago!
"Why quote all the time when we can create?"
If it wasn't, why would anybody care about cultivating the path? The whole purpose is to remove suffering.
As with all things dharma you can approach it from many sides, but this is what I have to say for now.
This is the problem with the retelling of many Zen stories. We often expect a lot for only witnessing the echoes of an old story about participants none of us knew.
If its too much of a quote then I can just substitute it for the noble truths that there is suffering, a cause, an end, and a way to do it.
Though, another way I thought to interpret the story is that enlightenment isn't the point since it doesn't cure our suffering. Instead of seeking enlightenment we should learn what the causes of our suffering are and learn to put an end to them.
Just because someone 'understands reality' or truth or enlightenment (whatever you call it) doesnt guarantee them happiness!
The world still goes on. Crime still happens, food still goes off, they stick get sick, their mother could still be lying in the hospital bed dieing...
So yes, life can still be as miserable as ever!
The enlightenment could have been that the monk realized that there was no true enlightenment. And all this that he sees around him , is 'it' !
Pretty rubbish after all!!! Depends if you're ready for truth or not! In my eyes, the truth is the exact thing you see when you open your eyes!
We arnt 'seperate' from life itself. We 'are' life!
If my life is miserable, i am miserable...
If i am happy, my life is happy!
I can change how i react to the world i see when i open my eyes
So if the everyday goings on of the world continue to cause me misery, then my practice isn't working and i need to change things.
I would've thought that once enlightened, i wouldn't be affected by what's happening around me, (that life is sometimes miserable and sometimes rockin) and that rather i'd just accept things for what they are at that given time knowing that it to will change.
Maybe if i sieve my everyday experiences through the 4 NT colander, then maybe i'll find more happiness within.
I take Buddha's teachings as rather suggestions, give 'em a go in tandem with your life and see how it turns out for you, it may not change my surrounding, but it may change how i feel about them.
"When it comes, don’t try to to avoid it; when it goes, don’t run after it. There is only this, and nothing else." ~ Ta-mei
Zen monks will know this also. So I think the story shouldn't be taken that literally. As someone said before, it can be a teaching tool to reduce our craving for enlightenment, but it probably does not mean to say that things in our internal world don't change.
Of course you can also find some examples alive of people who made the path work. Those people don't seem miserable at all.
At our level when we are miserable the world is miserable and when we are happy the world is happy.
So how would a bodhisattva feel? Would they be comforted by confidence? yes. Would they see the insubstantial passing nature of phenomena? yes. Would they cling to emptiness? no. When phenomena are seen as essenceless conscious returns to it's mother, reality. When neither form or emptiness is clung to all demons are cut through with wisdom.
Context.
Being miserable may be as empty for an enlightened Zenith as 'happiness' based on empty experiences is for us malcontent super cravers.
For the deadly miserable, it is the hope and promise of cessation that provides the ability to bear the intensity of misery.
Taking prostrations and refuge in a frenzy of pain we might be empowered to do . . .
From personal experience I have sat with oppressive misery. Seen it as empty by being with it. Relabled it as happy (same emptiness). Then when it passed found the cause. If I was more skilled I would not even have to relabel empty1 as empty2.
Be well. Create the conditions for wellness. Create compassion for all Being Well.
Now if we contemplate about why we have become happier/more peaceful and also made those around us happier, then I think we will see that it's because we have, through the practice, become less jealous, less intolerant, less arrogant, less angry, less greedy, less deluded, etc. and thereby less harmful towards other beings as well. At the same time, through the practice, we have also become more compassionate, more patient, more generous, more understanding, more open, etc.
Now a fully enlightened being is said to have completely overcome the unwholesome states such as jealousy, fear, anger, greed, delusion, etc. as well as having fully developed the wholesome states of mind such as compassion, generosity, equanimity, patience, forebearance, wisdom, etc. So we can imagine how peaceful they must feel.
Everything changes inside.
Or another one that I read about; women walking and having conversations with a jar of motionless water on their heads.
So “As miserable as ever” is a slightly more meaningful phrase than it looks like on the surface.
imho
Nothing changes. Everything changes.
It also has a shocking, Koanic nature. It may have startled one of the other monks into a realisation . . .
Imagine that, awake and miserable, now with the resources of a Tathagata
. . . or samsara z z z . . . just going where the karmic nightmare or dreams and fantasy arisings take you . . . pressing the snooze button . . .
What would you change . . . indeed what needs changing?
As Miserable as Ever
The point is he didn't ' own ' the misery. He didn't incorporate it into a self-sense.
He didn't 'own' blissful states either...and did not choose one over another.
As one of my Buddhist friends says...' Buddhadharma is ruthlessly radical '.
Suzuki was responsible for this story passed around: "On the fourth day of retreat as we sat with our painful legs, aching backs, hopes and doubts about whether it was worth it, Suzuki Rohsi began his talk by saying slowly, "The problems you are now experiencing" - we were sure he was going to say will go away - "will continue for the rest of your life". The way he said it, we all laughed."
The story is remembered because it points, as Zen should, to a assumption that must be challenged. See, being miserable means to be unhappy. How are enlightened people supposed to feel? If a good friend dies, are enlightened people allowed to feel sad?
Are enlightened people allowed to be unhappy? Are they allowed to be happy? Are they allowed to even feel anything, or just sit there smiling like a Buddha statue?
You can find fake gurus out there smiling and beaming happiness at you and promising that they have the method to fill your mind with peace and love. Then they'll climb into their limo and leave you to toil away at the cabbage farm, minds filled with love for what you're doing and the great Teacher you adore. Is that what you really want out of your practice? Then why aren't you doing it right now?
Or a surgeon could stick a knife into your mind and perform a lobotomy and guarantee you don't worry about a thing for the rest of your life. If that's enlightenment, then why aren't you happy with the thought of someone doing that?
So if Zen asks you how are enlightened people supposed to feel, what do you finally answer?
Here's a hint: How are you feeling right now?
And that's OK.
That is enlightenment.
Unfortunitely , alot of people on here just dont get that!!!
They really believe to be enlightened is to be a robot-like-happy-blissful kind of person... But its just not like that at all!!!
Reality is reality , whether we like it or not! (Enlightened or not)
Things are as they are!!!
Expect nothing and you may just end up with what you 'were' looking for...
Two of those people were men, one was a woman, one was Christian, one Buddhist, and one an atheist. What each had in common, near as I can figure, besides being incredibly friendly and open, was that they were at peace with themselves and the world. They still had their petty human problems, frustrations, etc, but I suppose they considered those the price of being alive. I know they didn't dwell on them.
I guess the second thing they all had in common was, they each were working hard to help people in their own way, but it wasn't because they expected to change the world. It was just something they did because that is what people should do.
Thats probably one of the best things ive ever :-)
So true!!
I can buy the interpretation that the Zen master was using the words "miserable as ever" to discourage the younger monks from wanting to gain Enlightenment. But I don't agree with the interpretation that he would still be miserable despite being Enlightened.
Given that the story is presented in text format, it's hard to suss out what the context/tone/delivery of the dialogue is like. "Miserable as ever" really denotes to me a state of dissatisfaction. Yes, Enlightenment is "seeing things as they truly are," and doesn't necessitate a blissed-out state. But it also doesn't necessitate being pessimistic. If you see reality for what it is, wouldn't that mean not placing any judgments on the experience? No misery, no bliss, just clear-seeing. If the monk is "miserable" for this reason or that reason, it seems safe to assume that he still is placing value judgments on reality. That doesn't seem like "seeing things as they truly are."
It depends beause it all depends on what 'clear seeing' and 'enlightenment' really are!
We all might just be 'hoping' that enlightenment brings the cessation of suffering (because thats what we have been taught and read and 'hope' to god it is' (we all want a path that really works, and ends all our suffering.. It would be good wouldnt it?)
BUT what if we are all wrong, none of us will ever know unless we become enlightened, and then thats when we realized 'ahhh, its not what we thought, im as miserable as ever"
Saying that, it doesnt have to be pessimistic OR optimistic, its just seeing things and as they truely are and 'being' whatever we are in that moment!
So maybe an enlightened person has the ability to 'just be' in every moment! He still gets sick, (and will feel low, rough and miserable) but that doesnt mean he will 'mentally' suffer futhermore, it just means he understands why his body is suffering and he 'accepts' this and waits for his recovery!
It could be pretty simple, if we are willing to be open about what enlightenment actually is!
I believe some people are scared and dont want to believe its 'nothing big'
They want to believe it something MASSIVE, (perhaps it inspires them to keep practising)
Just like christians believe in a HIGHER power, and a heaven after we die!
It keeps them going strong after a loved one dies, (they really believe they will see them again)
But will we????? Who knows (i personally think not)
Personally I don't know what enlightened is. I was kinda hoping for spiral learning towards a better place to look outward at life.