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Enlightened or not - nothing changes and the earth still spins...

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Comments

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    none of us will ever know unless we become enlightened
    :clap:

    Miserable truth ain't it . . . :wave:
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Jeffrey said:

    Projections of mind are not taken to be real as a Buddha. Thus even if you became insane and saw demons and felt tortured you would not take them as real. The same if you are in the hell of ICU in a hospital. It is all just projections of mind.




    What you 'think' you become! We create our realiity by what we 'think'!
    If we became insane and saw demons and felt tortured then that is 'real' !

    May not be real to you of course, but its still real to the one being tortured!

    Our mind 'creates' reality! Its different for everyone!

    Mind is the most powerful thing in the world and we only use 5 % of it!

    So people who become enlightened or even insane, they are probably using 'more' of their mind, they may be able to see only what is 'more' reality than the likes of others (who are only using their 5% )

    DaltheJigsaw
  • lobster said:

    none of us will ever know unless we become enlightened
    :clap:

    Miserable truth ain't it . . . :wave:

    Nothing miserable about that no!
    lobsterupekka
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the void Veteran
    zenmyste said:


    Mind is the most powerful thing in the world and we only use 5 % of it!

    So people who become enlightened or even insane, they are probably using 'more' of their mind, they may be able to see only what is 'more' reality than the likes of others (who are only using their 5% )

    Not trying to argue with you here but I just want to make the point that the notion that we only use %10 of our brain is some myth that really isn't very true.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=do-we-really-use-only-10
    upekka
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    Speaking from experience, insanity is a dead end. Being hungry for altered mind states, I drove myself crazy. Took two years to return . . . not even sure I was successful. :)
    The enlightened from my limited experience, are diverse but have a 'shared certainty of awakening', they are not different but completely transformed. This is an interior territory, clearly visible but to us sleepers - invisible. Superficially, externally they may be miserable or joyous, bland or impassioned. The fakes emulate qualities but the genuine express the ineffable . . .

    If you are a genuine seeker, the dead enlightened speak from dharma text. We owe them more than we imagine. One day we may join them. Strive earnestly. We can not end our quest until the quest ends us.

    Crazy!
    JeffreyCinorjer
  • GlowGlow Veteran
    edited June 2013
    One of my early problems with Buddhism that has persisted through the years of my practice is the issue of anthropocentrism. Here we are: a precocious race of hairless apes seemingly alone in our intellectual and verbal capacity on a planet that is sometimes indifferent or outright hostile to our existence. For the most part, we cannot see beyond our noses and limited lifespans. Yet there is something at work here that is bigger than us, vaster than our problems, our mind-projections, and, yes, our miseries. It is indifferent to our incarnation as musk ox or human, male or female, Indian, Sudanese, or American, etc.

    You say the mind is the most powerful thing in the world. It certainly is the largest thing in our experience as human beings: as the first two verses of the Dhammapada attest, there is no way out of the mind. It is the only means by which we have to know the world. Yet what is real and what is fiction? What is necessary and what is not? To what extent is misery inescapable? To what extent do we have to try to transcend misery?

    Unlike what is suggested in and by the OP, I don't think we quite have the answer. People have been grappling with this question for millenia. Perhaps this is the point at which we simply shrug our shoulders and admit we don't know. There's wisdom in humility. Enlightened or not, this matter that comprises our mind-body will go on without us to make a story out of it.
    Invincible_summer
  • howhow Veteran
    edited June 2013
    ENLIGHTENED OR NOT, NOTHING CHANGES, THE EARTH STILL SPINS.

    I am guessing you are just saying that enlightenment isn't everything.

    Enlightened or not is the difference between compassion, love & wisdom
    and greed, hate & delusion. Everyone I know on a spiritual path places great worth on understanding the differences between one and the other.

    Nothing changes denies entropy.

    the earth still spins is just another question of time!


    I guess the real question is what you think that nothing is?
    Glowkarmabluesupekka
  • seeker242 said:

    He probably had the flu or something. :) Even a Buddha's body get sick and dies. To say that nothing changed though is not entirely accurate IMO! To an unenlightened person, all of that will cause even more suffering, to an enlightened person, it won't.

    What do Buddhas know?
    http://www.amaravati.org/documents/the_way_it_is/03eta.html
    To offer no resistance to life is to be in a state of grace, ease and lightness. This state is then no longer dependent upon things being a certain way. It seems almost paradoxical, yet when your inner dependency on form is gone, the general conditions of your life, the outer forms, tend to improve greatly. Things, people or conditions that you thought you needed for your happiness now come to you with no struggle on your part and you are free to enjoy and appreciate them while they last. All those things, of course, will still pass away; cycles will come and go, but with dependency gone there is no fear of loss anymore. Life flows with ease.

    The happiness that is derived from some secondary source is never very deep. It is only a pale reflection of the joy of Being, the vibrant peace you find within as you enter the state of non-resistance. Being takes you beyond the polar opposites of the mind and frees you from dependency on form. Even if everything were to collapse and crumble all around you, you would still feel a deep inner core of peace. You may not be happy, but you will be at peace.

    Eckhart Tolle
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    person said:

    If you add a spoonful of dirt (suffering) to a glass of water (our unenlightened minds) it will taint the water and make it undrinkable. If you add the same amount of dirt to the ocean (an enlightened mind) it won't make a difference. Maybe an enlightened mind would notice the suffering but it won't effect their peace of mind.

    no need of 'may be'

    have no doubt :)
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    how said:

    I guess the real question is what you think that nothing is?

    I love a question that can not be answered.
    :lol:

    After some fruition in practice, we move genteelly . . . m m m . . . that should be 'gently' but then again, perhaps with grace and the suggestion of the spell checker 'genteelly' . . .
    how about 'naturally' . . . we move naturally from objects of meditation . . . breath, Yidams, metta, mantra, arisings, walking or 'doing sensations', listening to sound etc into . . .
    greater abstraction.

    So for example the space between thoughts, the stillness of 'just being', the clarity of awareness as 'awareness without object' . . . We can not move to abstraction until we have focus. That can take 10 minutes or years . . . usually years . . .
    In this greater abstraction, there is greater spaciousness and therefore its inherent empty nature is much easier to comprehend.

    Now the unraveling, the patience, the waiting without expectation, the 'just sitting'.

    Until one day we are no longer sitting. Nothing sits?
    Not quite.

    Better to say nothing. After all, nothing bears thinking about Nothing . . .
    :wave:
    upekka
  • jlljll Veteran
    zen stories are not meant to be interpreted directly.

    you are supposed to find the irony behind the
    apparent meaning.....
    zenmyste said:

    What do you guys think about this zen story!

    One day the Master announced that a young monk had reached an advanced state of enlightment. The news caused some stir. Some of the monks went to see the young monk. "We heard you are enlightened. Is that true?" they asked.
    "It is," he replied.

    "And how do you feel?"

    "As miserable as ever," said the monk.


    Cinorjer
  • Lazy_eyeLazy_eye Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Interesting story...

    One thing that occurs to me is that the students seemed to have expected a certain answer, which would imply that enlightenment has some essential, definable quality -- as opposed to pain, which also has some essential, definable quality. But all dharmas are empty, according to Mahayana.

    So there might be a double-edged meaning to the monk's answer. On the one hand, he hasn't gained some quantifiable, fixed asset known as "enlightenment". On the other hand, having realized emptiness, he can see there is no such thing as misery either.

    The Heart Sutra says "in emptiness...there is no suffering, no extinction of suffering, no path, no understanding, no attainment". The paradox in the sutra seems similar to the one raised in the Zen story, and the monk's answer demonstrates prajnaparamita.
    karmabluesJeffreyupekkalobster
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited June 2013
    my thinking says: samsara and nirvana : a duality - both exists and both does not exist - both empty of inherent existence. non-discriminating way shall lead from duality to oneness and further contemplation will lead to emptiness of essence. so its all just emptiness of essence everywhere. so what changes and who experiences the changes, it is just duality - rather, what occurs is that just phenomena (empty of essence) rising and falling in here and now.
  • pegembara said:

    Nothing changes on the outside.
    Everything changes inside.

    image

    And here is the paradox-

    Everything changes on the outside. That is samsara. The world of change which remains as it always was, always changing.

    but

    Nothing changes inside. This is nirvana. The mind that has realized nirvana has completely changed.

  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    edited June 2013
    When the concepts of self and others dissolves ,when one's mind aligns itself with actual reality, when one stops believing the conceptual mind and simply perceives what's here and now, that would be pretty awesome, but its still just life with it's pains, ageing, sickness and death-you're just not doing mental battle with these things anymore.
    Cittariverflowlobster
  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    my thinking says: samsara and nirvana : a duality - both exists and both does not exist - both empty of inherent existence. non-discriminating way shall lead from duality to oneness and further contemplation will lead to emptiness of essence. so its all just emptiness of essence everywhere. so what changes and who experiences the changes, it is just duality - rather, what occurs is that just phenomena (empty of essence) rising and falling in here and now.

    whoever read this now (arising)
    can go back to samsara
    or
    nirvana

    by holding 'what you read in this post', thinking about it, gain the meaning and let go (one is getting a step towards Nirvana)

    or

    1.by holding 'what you read in this post' (clinging-upadana),
    2. thinking about it (walking in samsara),
    3.gain 'a' meaning (knowledge) getting wisdom through (insight meditation),
    4.trying to write what you gain as knowledge (your view -may be Right -if you already have the Right View or Wrong if you have no Right View yet) want to say (walking in samsara),
    5.writes something (walking in samsara),
    6.waiting to see the response to your post (craving-thanha)

    One Goes Back To Samsara

    or

    One Can Have The Gut To Let Go Of At (any stage of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,or 6)

    Getting One Step Forward Towards Nirvana





    pegembara
  • The dream is so believable
    You lose your life.
    No way out.
    Seeking leads to more seeking.
    No way out.
    More pointers
    More delusion
    More confusion.
    No way out.
    No way in either?

    Here is as good as "anywhere"
    Now is as good as any "time"
    No place to start or finish
    No place for activity or rest
    "Inside" the realm it all seems so real

    "Outside" the realm there is no such thing as beginning nor end
    No point of entry nor point of origination

    No cause of causes

    "Outside" the realm without inside or outside.

    No cause of causes


    Buddha:"You may not necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment

    No cause of causes

    upekkapegembara
  • Enlightenment means a complete realization of emptiness, a stage of perfect intermediation, a stage of absence, the cessation of suffering in the dependent nature.

    Suffering means to bear with. To let go is the anonym of it. When no grasping arises, becoming process would slow down. This is because everything in the dependent nature is nothing but energy. Energy is nothing but vibration. When the becoming process slows down, it means energy is vibrating at lower frequencies. When the becoming process ceases, energy literally stops vibrating. Energy just got frozen. Zero vibration means zero becoming. Zero becoming means absolute cessation of any changing processes. Thus the absolute stage of absence is achieved. Absence means a perfect state of balance. Therefore, absence is not about nothingness but instead it is about no-thing-ness. No thing means no becoming, no changing. No changing means no suffering. No suffering means no mind.

    Mind is the forerunner of all states. No mind means a complete neutralization state of affairs, that is nibbana.
    upekkapersonpegembara
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    @searching_samsara, :)
    @buddhitakso :)
    Beautiful and Insightful
  • FlorianFlorian Veteran
    I can't imagine that the monk meant literally 'I am miserable'. This would be to blatantly deny his enlightenment by identifying with the impermanent. I suspect that he answers the question at the same level it is asked. He was asked about his 'I' and so he reported on its state. It is possible to be aware of 'my' misery and yet not be in the least miserable. It would depend on whether one is an unwillingly participant or a dispassionate observer.

    Enlightenment must be the end of suffering because it is defined as a state free of distinctions. This would have to include the distinction between any two emotional states. This is why, unique among all phenomena, Nibbana is given no positive description in the Abhidharma. It will always be incorrect to give it one. It may be a pipedream as far was we know, but the definition is clear.

    Or, this is how it seems to me. No dogmatism intended.

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    It all depends on what we mean by enlightenment.

    What context? What model? What abstract hierarchy?

    Because from the Fundamental Vehicle there is a significant change. No more suffering, Arhatship, no rebirth.

    Even entering the stream equates to only seven more life times.

    Or Mahayana, which has the Bhumis and the goal of helping everyone in their enlightenment.

    Etc.

    There surely isn't just one voice for this.
    riverflow
  • To deconstruct a Koan by academic enquiry
    Will only lead to more enquiry.
    A Koan is designed to break language patterns
    BUT throw the thorn away,
    otherwise you will fall into the trap of words.
    Tread carefully we are already knee-deep in the weeds.

    Be aware of regressed tendency forming precognitive traps that offer pleasure and rewards for understanding and learning the words and their meanings. This deeply imbedded current assures only more craving and a fixation on learning more and more words to have more and more experiences with the belief that both experiences and words/understanding will lead to the ultimate experience, termed "Enlightenment"

    A Zen Koan/Story points to the Absolute

    Let go!
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    Let go!
    Hold on . . . with what?
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Let go of the sky....

    with....

    the sky

    Let go of the sky with the sky
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    Now that Koans were brought up I like this one:
    A mouse eats cat food but the cat's bowl is broken.
    What does this mean?
    I just thought up this next one:
    The first bowl of porridge was too hot.
    The second bowl of porridge was too cold.
    The last bowl of porridge was just right!
    What the hell is she talking about?
    What would you say? :wave:
  • howhow Veteran
    Spiritual beano. Your best Zendo mate
    :om:
    lobster
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    :thumbsup:
  • zenmyste said:


    Enlightenment is to see things as they really are. And to see things as they REALLY are wont necessarily make us happy!
    In fact, for some people, enlightenment will make or break them! For some, it could be too much!

    Enlightenment doesnt mean = rainbows in the sky..
    It means to understand truth! (Whether we like it or not)

    If you are lookibg for peace' , you'll only find that when death comes for you im afraid..

    (At least my take on it all anyway) :)

    It's ironic isn't it?

    And yet could it be that it is because it is not fully there yet, zenmyste?
  • FlorianFlorian Veteran
    I don't think we should be making bold statements about enlightenment unless we are prepared to claim we are enlightened. Bold statements are the claim to enlightenment.

    To say that seeing thing as they really are might make us unhappy is to give a lie to the idea that Buddhism is the pursuit of happiness, and at best is a pessimistic speculation.

    I might agree that a little enlightenment, like a little knowledge, may be a dangeorous thing. But a statement to the effect that that a fully realised person might regret their realisation would be wildly heterodox.
    Jeffrey
  • TheswingisyellowTheswingisyellow Trying to be open to existence Samsara Veteran
    By who's scale do we weigh and measure enlightenment? Enlightenment is another concept and idea that we have measured and weighed and put it in a nice category. In doing so we can't speak of enlightenment, all we can do is point to our little boxed concept.
    riverflow
  • upekkaupekka Veteran
    Florian said:



    a fully realised person might regret their realisation would be wildly heterodox.

    might?

    still there is doubt it seems

    Hmmmm.............................

    need more practice brother, hmmm.. (a sister?)

    :)
  • FlorianFlorian Veteran
    I thnk maybe you've slightly misread that sentence. It was suggested that an enlightened person might regret it. There's no doubt that this would be a heterodox view.
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited June 2013
    Florian said:

    I don't think we should be making bold statements about enlightenment unless we are prepared to claim we are enlightened.


    I will be making such a statement some time this year, whether or not people think such statements reveal its invalidity. Hopefully it will be an invalid statement anyway. After all the fantasy expectations range from omniscience to 'null by mouth'.
    Maybe I could start as a stream entrant? However not sure whether to swim upstream, downstream, paddle on the spot, drown or cross over. Maybe the Buddhist stream enters us . . .
    So many currents . . .
    :o
  • The Path is the obstacle
    Give up the stink of Buddhism
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Obstacles are the path. Study hard.
    Zeroperson
  • Laziness is a hindrance. Conceit is a fetter.

    If there were any scent of Buddhism here, it would be overpowered by the stench of self-serving BS.
    lobster
  • @fivebells I wonder, what do you consider "self-serving BS" in this thread?
  • FlorianFlorian Veteran
    I was also wondering.
  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    The Path is the obstacle
    Give up the stink of Buddhism
    How dare you talk about where you have no feet. How dare you sniff at our smelly Buddhism. :rant:

    You are the path.
    The fragrance is no obstacle. :wave:

    . . . gosh, ain't I daring today . . . :o
  • upekkaupekka Veteran

    i know this thread is 4 years old

    but it is worthwhile to see how far our attitude has been changed

    or

    to see whether we still bear the same attitude

    after reading/listening/ practising Buddha's Teaching for another 4 years

  • federicafederica seeker of the clear blue sky Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    The past is over. The future is not here. All we can go on, is the present.
    I suggest you stick with that.

    lobsterHozan
This discussion has been closed.